Nowak Indy1 "Temple" Jacket (w/ New Raiders Comparison Pics)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:26 am

Rask said 22 front 23.5 back.
We've only compared front shots here.

Yep, messy measurements - it's the art of putting them together that's the fun bit!

Yeah, that's why I have not ordered yet. Still trying to figure out the right measurements.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:35 am

Platon. This is the biggest problem I have with you. You participated in Rask's thread. Then you post above something Rask said to try and prove your point in a different thread. Purposefully and knowingly taking it out of context. Because right below the post you CHOSE to quote is this, "Thank you Platon and Crismans. I just meassured my wested and sent Tony the information with some pictures."

What's that have to do with any of this?
If you read that thread Tony has amended wested measurements for Rask's jacket.

He measured his WESTED Platon. TN will make the jacket however you want it made. ??? that you chose to edit in your above post is exactly the problem.

Sure, he will but we were not discussing what Tony is capable of.
The subject of our debate was whether Yojimbo's jacket looks short on him or not.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:38 am

Yeah OK you're right. A 5 8'' sz 38 person then.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:54 am

Platon, I really think it's best the discussion is kept between one replica jacket and the actual "Temple" jacket. To bring in others just muddies the waters - Rask's jacket looks great on him, but it's comparing apples with oranges and moving the goalposts around at this point to compare someone that's a COMPLETELY different size.

BTW I think the other Raven back shot lines up to mine pretty well - you're not going to make me get the camera and my Zoolander poses out again I hope!

Do you admit that the match between my jacket and the actual jacket in the actual movie is more or less a match?

(I'm personally very happy that it is - I didn't have it confirmed 100% until this discussion started and I took these pics, but now I'd be struggling to find anything to adjust.)

I'm just at a bit of a loss for why you're looking for other points of comparison?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:55 am

Neutronbomb, I will not answer to all that because I prefer to let the readers draw their own conclusions...

But before I go let me get this straight. I want your confirmation on this

3. It can't look too short on Yojimbo Platon because it doesn't look too short on HF.

Are you saying that a 23 inch jacket that looks OK on a 38 size person will not look short on a 44 size person?
Is that it? Yes or no?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:57 am

Do you admit that the match between my jacket and the actual jacket in the actual movie is more or less a match?

I admit and confirm that all your zoolander poses match the film jacket.

It's also notable that althought it is the same jacket, in the bottom pic the back looks longer (I've had it with this optical illusion thing)

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:08 am

PLATON wrote:
Do you admit that the match between my jacket and the actual jacket in the actual movie is more or less a match?
I admit and confirm that all your zoolander poses match the film jacket.

It's also notable that althought it is the same jacket, in the bottom pic the back looks longer (I've had it with this optical illusion thing)

Woo hoo! I'll take that, thank you.

Yes, and bear in mind, I wasn't even wearing it off the shoulder when this shot was taken either - it can look longer longer again if I do that.

Edit - btw, the Wested was a 44" but it always swam on me. I'm really a 43, and I think they couldn't be bothered customising the order to that spec, plus the way-too-much "standard" room in the non-80's cut jackets. The Nowak method of sizing as per a jacket that fits is far superior IMO and helped me nailed the look I wanted.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:24 am

Since I have been quoted in this thread I would like to say a few things:

First. My chest size tends to be 40 but I asked Tony a 38 (my Wested size) because it has a very snug fit and I really like it that way.

Second. I sent Tony an e-mail with me wearing my Wested. I told him: 'Maybe it's a tad long, what do you think about it?' And we decided to shorten it a bit. Actually, the storm flap length of the Wested is 22.5 inches (half an inch longer) and back height is 24.5 inches (an inch and a half longer). I believe this agrees with Neutron's information about ratios etc.

Third. I am too lazy today to take more pictures, and yet I think they wouldn't solve the 'debate', but since it is my word that is been taken as proof, please believe me if I tell you guys that, leaves apart, Yojimbo's jacket and mine fit almost the same and have proportionally the same length. Of course, we have different sizes and bodies which means that, obviously there will always be some differences, but IMHO those differences are too subtle to be taken seriously as a change of pattern or style. By the way, now that I am seeing those back shots again, his jacket looks exactly the same length as mine.

Sorry to disagree this time with you, Platon, but I don't see Yojimbo's jacket as short as you think, neither mine as long as you beleive. All I can say is that they have more or less the same style and length as the jacket shown in the movie... And that Yojimbo's has a wonderful leather...

Anyway, Platon I really appreciate how you like the fitting of my jacket

Once again, Yojimbo, congratulations for such a great jacket

Regards,
Rask

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:45 am

Rask wrote

Sorry to disagree this time with you, Platon, but I don't see Yojimbo's jacket as short as you think, neither mine as long as you beleive.

OK that but I didn't say yours is long and his is short 'cause they're the about the same length.
In fact, yours is shorter by 1 inch.

I said yours "looks" longer on you.

Regards,

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:04 am

Platon.

you ......ahh... forget about it.....there is no use...

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:13 am

You know what? you're right...

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:39 am

Platon wrote:I said yours "looks" longer on you.

Ok, Ok... I meant that too. I am not very good with my English

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:49 am

Platon, where's your jacket? Where are your "action poses"?

To make a guy actually pose in a jacket like that is...wierd. This whole length obsession is wierd. You can't get the exact same lenght on differing body types and you certainly can't figure it out from photos.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:13 pm

Raider S,
My jacket is a 40 OTR.
It's size/length is decent.
My problem with it is that it doesn't have the SA details right (you know pocket size, pleat depth, yoke seam etc) and that I think the sleeves are fuller than what they should be.

I am between a custom wested, a todd's and a TN. Unfortunately budget is an issue. (Otherwise I would have got all 3)
Not to mention the difficulties due to the chaos created in my mind with all the measurements info I got.

I will post photos (any action pose you like) as soon as I order it/get it.

For the record I didn't ask Yojimbo to pose, he just did.

This whole length obsession is wierd.

Nothing weird about it. The film jacket was either 22 or 23 inches.
Speaking of same sizes, any jacket within that range is normal (not short, not long)
The consideration is how that looks when worn on people, which as said earlier greatly depends on body type.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:52 pm

Wow... these threads always go south...

Yohimbi, like I said earlier, awesome jacket, best leather I have seen yet for the TN. IMO, the sleeves look a little long (and I know you asked for it) which I think alters the look of the jacket, leading people to think it is too short. If you are happy with it, and you seem to be, then that's all that matters.

This is what I meant though when I said that the rest of you yahoo's (you know who you are) rain on people's parades. Isn't it enough to let Yohimbi just enjoy his jacket?

If I take a step back, I see the same people defending the TN jackets and the same people arguing that the TN's are not right. After a while it starts to really look like some people really do have some elegance to TN. I say that because I see a lot less defending of any other jacket maker. Just an observation.

Let's all sit down a moment and say this with me: "In my opinion..." some of you talk like you know everything as if it was fact. Reality check: you don't.

You can argue that you are right until you are blue in the face, but in the end, it's still just your opinion. These jacket debates are just based on perspective and guessing. Even if you say... "But Tony's jacket is copied from a screen used jacket", it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference. We don't know the condition of the jacket TN received, whether it was slightly smaller, etc... and even for sure if it matched the look of the Temple Jacket, or Raven Bar, etc... so it boils down to body type, height, weight, pose, and so on. What looks a certain way on HF may not look that way on your no matter HOW close the jacket is to the original. We have all acknowledged this...

In the end, you are almost better off telling TN, or Peter or whoever, if you want a custom look, show them the screen shot that you want. Based on your body type, they can adjust it to fit you for that look. Who the #### cares at this point if it is copied from a hero jacket if it doesn't look SA to you. And by SA, what scene you are thinking of when you say SA.

For the rest of you who love to debate/argue, just know that you are only arguing your opinion. Neither side can prove themselves right IMO.

There are a number of you who have been studying this jacket for years, I put more weight into your opinions than I do those who have just "appeared" recently and are suddenly preaching what's new. It doesn't mean that they don't have valuable opinions to share, I just have more history with you guys

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:29 pm

There is no such thing as the "ONE" jacket. As a film professional I can say that no production has "ONE" hero jacket. Sometimes there are dozens, not to mention stunt jackets, stand-in jackets, etc. Each of these is different as well. Some can be altered for a specific "gag" or stunt. Even the A jackets have little differences. As far as I am concerned, the jacket is the perfect jacket for the individual who wears it and has it done the way they want. It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. My jacket may be perfect for me, but not so for another person....and so on.

I like these threads so we can see the perfection each individual comes up with on their own jackets. We are lucky to have Peter and Tony willing to accommodate our pickiness. I have both Wested and TN jackets. Peter and Tony are stand up guys. Their jackets are as individual to their tastes as we are to ours.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:34 pm

A lot of people can prove themselves wrong, however.

Those who defend TN jackets don't seem to have a need to go into every single new Wested thread and tell people how "incorrect" their jackets are. (RC, for example, usually makes a point of telling people their jackets look nice, no matter who made it.) Maybe that's the difference and why there's the need to call BS on the same few people still sobbing their jackets aren't nearly as "Raiders" as all these great jackets now showing up.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:44 pm

There is no such thing as the "ONE" jacket. As a film professional I can say that no production has "ONE" hero jacket.

Very true, but there is one main jacket which Ford wore for most of the film, same with the hat. That particular jacket has attributes that the others made for the film seem not to have. The Nowak jacket is not one the main hero jacket, but close. It looks like Yojimbo's is closest yet to that jacket. The hide, collar, pockets, way the side vents open effortlessly, the fit, etc. It was just my opinion it looked a hair too short, long arms or not.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:45 pm

neutronbomb wrote:Well Zen, I have a different perspective.

1. Most people are naturally resistant to change. There are entire books written about the subject. That's where the term "new blood" comes from. Most companies understand this and actively bring in new people with fresh insights because they know if they continue to follow the old school of thought within their company they're not mitigating the risk that is inherit whenever there's an old boys club established. Your the second person on this thread to post about "knowing people for years" and "I've been studying this subject for 10 years". Here's a thought. Maybe you've made "friends" online for 10 years, but it doesn't necessarily mean the 10 years really means anything if the information is incorrect. It's an interesting insight into human fallacy to automatically put weight on, "I have 3 or 5 or whatever years of experience". Really, what if you have one day of poor experience and it's been repeated for 10 years? What if the person with all this experience is unreliable in multiple ways? I don't begrudge you this Zen because really that's how people operate.

2. I came on the scene a few months after TN a professional jacket maker received a ROLA jacket to copy and started making jackets. It quickly became obvious the "experts" who've been here for years and been studying "the jacket" for years (really, fascinating really. Didn't realize all of you had spent so many years with a ROLA jacket in your hands to study) had someone how missed so many facts. Oh, for instance the leather type.

3. Yeah, I'm abrasive. _ has talked about his personality type before and I've seen the resistance to his insights and research from the "old boys" club. Well I'm that times 10. Intense would be a soft term. I don't tend to suffer fools easily and part of that is when it's crystal clear someone is proposing misleading facts. Don't lose sight of the fact the dozen or so members on here who know each other and post the most and may know all the inside stuff are not the only ones who read these threads. There are many who come on here and ask a question to make a buying decision, get incorrect information, and off they go. I was one of them. So I don't post for Zen, and I don't post for agent5, or DJ, or KT, or any of you 10 year experience members, and I don't post to try to convince Platon of anything. I post for the poor guy who stumbles on here and gets hit with, "if your chest size is a 38 then your length needs to be 22 inches period". I tend to operate on correct information and I tend to be right for a lot of reasons. Way more often than not. So, when I see these little old boy club rules of IMO and hey, I could be wrong and well, it's just my 2 cents, and hey, I don't even know why I'm posting because I'm such a moron that no one should listen to me, it's aggravating. It dilutes the message. Clearly, it's to prevent fighting and it's a system that's been worked out over time to try to keep from stepping on peoples toes so I've tried it out. Doesn't work for me. For one, whenever somebody posts it's redundant. Of, course it's just their opinion. They're the one typing it. Second, I get hit with someone saying I'm using "weasel words".

So yeah, sorry Zen. I'm not a touchy feely type.

4. I'm not on anybodies side. I'm always on the side of correct information, whatever that may be and wherever it may be found. And I think it's pretty obvious in the three months I've been here there's a source that has provided a limitless pool of incorrect information for 10+ years.

5. I personally want a jacket made by the best that's available. Of course that's IMHO. But, that's how I typically make my decisions. I realize there are a several different vendors who all offer quality products and people should get the facts, weigh the pros and cons, and go with the vendor that meets their needs best. For the most part that's how it works here in this community. But don't be blind to the fact that some have agendas that are not in the best interests of my fellow COW members and/or post incorrect (IMHO) information and I'm always going to address it. Because I really don't care and I mean this in the most sincere and nice way possible about long time members feelings on the subject.

Though I may not agree with everything that's been said, I do appreciate that neutronbomb has said in essence what many of us have been thinking. Leaving vendors out of the equation, I do agree that we really should approach the subject with a bit more of an open-mind than we have been lately, hopefully being more receptive to suggestions instead of sticking to our guns.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:56 pm

I tend to operate on correct information and I tend to be right for a lot of reasons. Way more often than not.

Here three months and you're already a legend in your own mind.

Good for you, Mr.Hawking. I guess we'll all just wait for you to gather all of the correct info and sit back and enjoy because chances are you are always going to be entirely correct. Bravo.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:24 pm

There is a definite pattern to these threads lately, and I'm as guilty of contributing to it as anyone. First someone posts their jacket (TN jackets seem to be a favorite target of late). A select, vocal few come on and post what they see wrong with it (or some back-handed compliment followed by the big BUT--and Raider S is right on the money when he says that there is one type of jacket conspicuously absent from this). Then those that own and like TNs come in and start their defense (and I'm as guilty as anyone) and then you have another thread vanish into the TN vs. Wested wasteland. And to be honest, there are also times when the TN defense club jumps the gun (again, I'm as guilty as anyone of this).

I do love my TNs and I like Tony, personally, but I don't think I have any allegiance, per se. I am also not a jacket expert by any means. But I can usually recognize an agenda when I see it (or when it's this obvious at any rate). I try to keep my mouth shut but after a while the temptation to post becomes too great.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:35 pm

neutronbomb wrote:Well Zen, I have a different perspective.

1. Most people are naturally resistant to change. There are entire books written about the subject. That's where the term "new blood" comes from. Most companies understand this and actively bring in new people with fresh insights because they know if they continue to follow the old school of thought within their company they're not mitigating the risk that is inherit whenever there's an old boys club established. Your the second person on this thread to post about "knowing people for years" and "I've been studying this subject for 10 years". Here's a thought. Maybe you've made "friends" online for 10 years, but it doesn't necessarily mean the 10 years really means anything if the information is incorrect. It's an interesting insight into human fallacy to automatically put weight on, "I have 3 or 5 or whatever years of experience". Really, what if you have one day of poor experience and it's been repeated for 10 years? What if the person with all this experience is unreliable in multiple ways? I don't begrudge you this Zen because really that's how people operate.

2. I came on the scene a few months after TN a professional jacket maker received a ROLA jacket to copy and started making jackets. It quickly became obvious the "experts" who've been here for years and been studying "the jacket" for years (really, fascinating really. Didn't realize all of you had spent so many years with a ROLA jacket in your hands to study) had someone how missed so many facts. Oh, for instance the leather type.

3. Yeah, I'm abrasive. _ has talked about his personality type before and I've seen the resistance to his insights and research from the "old boys" club. Well I'm that times 10. Intense would be a soft term. I don't tend to suffer fools easily and part of that is when it's crystal clear someone is proposing misleading facts. Don't lose sight of the fact the dozen or so members on here who know each other and post the most and may know all the inside stuff are not the only ones who read these threads. There are many who come on here and ask a question to make a buying decision, get incorrect information, and off they go. I was one of them. So I don't post for Zen, and I don't post for agent5, or DJ, or KT, or any of you 10 year experience members, and I don't post to try to convince Platon of anything. I post for the poor guy who stumbles on here and gets hit with, "if your chest size is a 38 then your length needs to be 22 inches period". I tend to operate on correct information and I tend to be right for a lot of reasons. Way more often than not. So, when I see these little old boy club rules of IMO and hey, I could be wrong and well, it's just my 2 cents, and hey, I don't even know why I'm posting because I'm such a moron that no one should listen to me, it's aggravating. It dilutes the message. Clearly, it's to prevent fighting and it's a system that's been worked out over time to try to keep from stepping on peoples toes so I've tried it out. Doesn't work for me. For one, whenever somebody posts it's redundant. Of, course it's just their opinion. They're the one typing it. Second, I get hit with someone saying I'm using "weasel words".

So yeah, sorry Zen. I'm not a touchy feely type.

4. I'm not on anybodies side. I'm always on the side of correct information, whatever that may be and wherever it may be found. And I think it's pretty obvious in the three months I've been here there's a source that has provided a limitless pool of incorrect information for 10+ years.

5. I personally want a jacket made by the best that's available. Of course that's IMHO. But, that's how I typically make my decisions. I realize there are a several different vendors who all offer quality products and people should get the facts, weigh the pros and cons, and go with the vendor that meets their needs best. For the most part that's how it works here in this community. But don't be blind to the fact that some have agendas that are not in the best interests of my fellow COW members and/or post incorrect (IMHO) information and I'm always going to address it. Because I really don't care and I mean this in the most sincere and nice way possible about long time members feelings on the subject.

Let's take a moment to read your response here...

1. Resistant to change. Sure I get that, but I am not sure where you with this really. When I say that I respect the opinions more of those who I have seen study something for years. It's just that, I give their opinions on a matter more weight. Notice how I say their opinion though. They can still be wrong and never did I say that someone who has been around long is always right. Nothing to do with right or wrong at all. I hear what you are saying, but I don't think if has much to do with what I was saying. Take Agent 5 for example. He has been here for a long time, has a passion for Raiders and has proven that passion with research and contributions to this site. Does that mean that he is 100% right? How could he be? He wasn't there on set of Raiders. But based on his history here, and the way that he has conducted himself over the years, you can form your own opinion on him and his knowledge of Raiders based on the information and theories that are out there. This would be why I say I respect his opinion over someone who appeared shortly after TN announced that he was copying a hero jacket. Not that you care, but I would imagine that over time, as people get to know you, they might feel the same about you. Doesn't make Agent 5 or you "right" though

2. Missed facts. Well how could people miss them if they had never seen the jacket? _ is the only person who has seen a stunt jacket and for example, the leather type oddly enough was never discussed. Not sure why though... but anyway. There were really no facts to be had. Best we had was years of photos and screen caps. Sort of like Tony said, the jacket people imagine in their heads may not exist. So your point here is that you speak of them missing facts, well there were no facts to miss. And you talk about leather type. It seems to me that people are still debating that and that we don't actually have confirmation on what it really was...

3. I don't have much of a response to this cause I really don't know how it fits in to what I said. So you are abrasive and don't post for us. I for one never thought that you did or said that, so yea... _ by the way is part of the "old boys club". I will agree that sometimes people are just here to ask a quick question and then make their purpose and I agree that it's nice for them to get a correct answer, but what is the correct answer? That's the part that is mostly subjective. Only a few things with Indy gear are correct answers, the rest are opinions. I love seeing post that people make that basically list the options and the pros and cons of a product. To me, those are the most useful.

4. Sides - Well I am sure that many people, whether they agree with your perspective and opinion or not, would say that there are at least a few people here that come off like the spokesmen for TN Leather Jackets. You say that you are on the correct side, but what side is that? Are you just assuming that TN is the correct side? (mind you not saying that TN is or isn't correct) You say that there is a source of incorrect info. How do you know that it is incorrect? What are you basing your opinion on?

5. Yep I want the best jacket I can get too, it only makes sense if you are buying it. Why would you want a crappy jacket? Everyone makes their decisions in their own way. I for one choose to gather information. Sort of the BS if there is any, review the information, talk to people who I feel I can rely on, compare information, and then ultimately attempt to make the best informed decision that I can.
In the end, you have to get what's best for you and your budget.

I am sure that people have their agendas, I don't doubt that for a minute. Personal friends of a vendor will clearly defend them and push their product higher. Some may even have agreements to get a commission for everyone that they refer. I am not blind to it in the least... and to be perfectly honest... this is why I would be a little apprehensive to trust someone who comes to the forums right after a new product has been announced and then pushes that product as being the next big thing. Not saying this is the case, but that is why someone might be skeptical.

On a side note though, personally, I don't like people knocking TN anymore than if someone where to knock Wested or G&B. Unless of course they were deserving of a bad review. I also don't feel that anyone should be poking their head into a "here's my new XXXX" and say "omg that stitch is wrong, or why does your XXXX looks so off? Sure, if someone says what do you think, you have the right to state your opinion.

and finally, because I just read crismans post. I agree with you and I think I have said this before. No one wants their choice bashed. I for one would think you guys were all jerks if I just bought something which half of you trashed and the other half defended. Just let me enjoy my fraking jacket already lol. I understand why you guys would defend your purchases and don't blame you.

I applaud your passion around these jackets. TN has provided us with another jacket option and a nice high end one at that.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:56 pm

There is a definite pattern to these threads lately, someone posts their jacket and a select, vocal few come on and post what they see wrong with it.

Actually, this has been going on since day one and is usually taken with a grain of salt. Of course people will have an opinion but it's all in how it's stated that has ever made a difference.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:46 pm

ON JACKET VARIATIONS OR LACK THEREOF:

The thing I was curious about with Nowak's "Hawaii"-based template was this issue of jacket variation - how different was it REALLY to the Temple version? Well, I think the answer is not very much at all. As I've already said, mine's exactly Tony's standard version, with the 3 basic tweaks I applied, and some specific "training". That's it.

Sure, they were rushing at the time to get jackets to the set, and rushed a few things, but the overall cut just couldn't vary THAT much, short of gross negligence on behalf of Peter. The collar, for instance, just wouldn't vary hugely, apart from messing up a turn and getting a sharper point on one, or a rounder stand - I think that would be it. To me, any argument about variations between lengths or cut or whatever just doesn't hold water unless you have really good evidence to the contrary.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:06 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote: The thing I was curious about with Nowak's "Hawaii"-based template was this issue of jacket variation - how different was it REALLY to the Temple version? Well, I think the answer is not very much at all.

Thank you. This is very true and points to the fact people are now saying the "real" hero jacket must be the temple jacket or bar jacket - anything to try and cast a cloud over the evil Nowak Hawaii jacket.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:12 pm

Like I said, I think Tony said it best. The jacket that we all think we see and want to see may not exist. It's a ghost.

We don't know either way if there were differences in the several jackets. Who knows, I doubt we ever will.

Funny when you think about it. If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start

You know what would have been awesome... to have him take pics of the hero jacket and say "hey look what I made!" and then listen as people picked it apart

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:16 pm

Now that is is good idea!!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:07 pm

We don't know either way if there were differences in the several jackets.

We do know for certain, without any doubt that there were subtle differences in the jackets made but it was all basically in the minute details (collar/yoke seam) and not the overall fit, which seems perfect in his jackets.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:17 pm

Zendragon wrote:If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start

He did copy a hero jacket. Accept the fact and sleep better at night.

Soon Wested will have a copy of Tony's copy of a hero jacket; maybe then everybody will be happy...

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:41 pm

Raider S wrote:
Zendragon wrote:If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start
He did copy a hero jacket. Accept the fact and sleep better at night.

Soon Wested will have a copy of Tony's copy of a hero jacket; maybe then everybody will be happy...

Hahaha back to this eh? Glad you are convinced, but no one has offered actual proof of this, so I will go with the theory that he may have until I am shown otherwise. Sadly it is not fact if there is no proof offered. But I am not arguing that point. I am not saying that he did or didn't because I can't support either claim. Something tells me that you can't either.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:53 pm

You can't stop trying to cast doubt about it in nearly every thread and every post you make. You know the "do you still beat your wife" question? That's what you keep doing.

There's far more proof he copied a hero jacket than proof he did not. In fact there's been ZERO evidence to suggest he didn't. Zero.

If you're going to keep doubting, at least speak to the man and direct your questions there instead of stirring the pot here. You've been a member with a long-term interest in the jacket - why would you not want to call and talk to the man who made the jackets for the latest movie? Sounds like it would be worthwhile no matter what you feel about his Raiders copy.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:36 pm

why would you not want to call and talk to the man who made the jackets for the latest movie?

Uh-oh. Looks like RCSignals has gotten to you.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:46 pm

Raider S wrote:You can't stop trying to cast doubt about it in nearly every thread and every post you make. You know the "do you still beat your wife" question? That's what you keep doing.

There's far more proof he copied a hero jacket than proof he did not. In fact there's been ZERO evidence to suggest he didn't. Zero.

If you're going to keep doubting, at least speak to the man and direct your questions there instead of stirring the pot here. You've been a member with a long-term interest in the jacket - why would you not want to call and talk to the man who made the jackets for the latest movie? Sounds like it would be worthwhile no matter what you feel about his Raiders copy.

You are the one who came in to state that it was a fact. I wasn't in here casting doubt either. READ what I wrote again...

"If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start"

There are many who don't know if Tony had the real deal or not. It isn't that they doubt that he copied something, although some might, but it's the question of WHAT he copied that people are wondering. We will never know the answer to that question unless it one day gets answered.

So my post simply says this: For those who are doubters... let's say for the sake of argument that Tony really did replicate a hero's jacket. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start

Now I will say it so you in a langauge that will make you happy too...
"You know that hero jacket that Tony copied? It doesn't make much difference cause we won't ever be truely happy and will want mods made to it too, so it looks the way we imagine it to. Tony may as well of just made a replica from the start"

Happy now?

P.S. Not only that, but you totally took that one comment out of my post to pick at it. You are one of THOSE guys...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:01 pm

Zendragon wrote: Funny when you think about it. If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start

That's essentially what happened to the Wested jacket. So many variations, alterations, and suggestions were made and incorporated from fan input over the years that if the very first replica had been made from an original pattern, you wouldn't know it!

And yes, it is sad that every Nowak thread seems to go down this same exact path. All the arguments are tired and beaten so much that there's hardly a horse left to beat at this point. And it doesn't seem to matter when threads get closed down because the same exact tired arguments get transferred into yet another Nowak thread. Give it a rest folks, or read the previous reruns from all the other threads we had to lock because things got out of hand.

It'd sure be awful nice if we could get this thread back on track again.

Yojimbo, you have a nice looking jacket and it looks good on you, regardless of what anyone says, and regardless of who made it.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:12 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:
Zendragon wrote: Funny when you think about it. If Tony really did get a hero jacket, and his jacket is an exact copy. We will end up making changes to it cause it doesn't look right lol. He may as well have just made a replica from the start
That's essentially what happened to the Wested jacket. So many variations, alterations, and suggestions were made and incorporated from fan input over the years that if the very first replica had been made from an original pattern, you wouldn't know it!

And yes, it is sad that every Nowak thread seems to go down this same exact path. All the arguments are tired and beaten so much that there's hardly a horse left to beat at this point. And it doesn't seem to matter when threads get closed down because the same exact tired arguments get transferred into yet another Nowak thread. Give it a rest folks, or read the previous reruns from all the other threads we had to lock because things got out of hand. It'd sure be awful nice if we could get this thread back on track again.

Yojimbo, you have a nice looking jacket and it looks good on you, regardless of what anyone says, and regardless of who made it.

You are absolutely right. I would imagine that if we held "THE" jacket in our hands, we would be like "hmph, this doesn't look right"

We need a thread called "Beating a dead horse, the Raiders jacket saga continues" what's funny is that we have been arguing about this jacket since I first came here. It is one of the reasons why I stepped away for a while, got tired of the same old arguements

Sorry Yohimbe, back to your wonderful jacket!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:20 pm

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:23 pm

'5, you're like Linus with that thing.

I bet he was with you when you saw Raiders. That's why he's so special.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:26 pm

Zen, why won't you call Tony? You say you're really interested in these jackets but won't call to ask your own questions. I can't understand this. The people who keep arguing and doubting never want to try and go to the source directly to get answers. In fact they seem to avoid it at all costs.

If I have a question about something I can ask here, but if it's something I feel is important isn't it usually best to ask directly? When I had a USW question I called USW. When I had a Todd's issue I called Todd. When I wanted to find out about Tony's work I called him. Makes sense to me.

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:35 pm

Sorry, that rabbit is all wrong - not SA at all -- the eyes are not close enough, the color is off....I think the fabric was not a custom job but a chinese import...

I couldn't resist...

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 pm

Raider S wrote:Zen, why won't you call Tony? You say you're really interested in these jackets but won't call to ask your own questions. I can't understand this. The people who keep arguing and doubting never want to try and go to the source directly to get answers. In fact they seem to avoid it at all costs.

If I have a question about something I can ask here, but if it's something I feel is important isn't it usually best to ask directly? When I had a USW question I called USW. When I had a Todd's issue I called Todd. When I wanted to find out about Tony's work I called him. Makes sense to me.

Ok seeing how I thought we were trying to get this thread back on track, I will answer your question and then if you still feel the need to discuss it, then you can PM me.

So to answer your question... nothing that I said had really anything to do with Tony. So why are you asking me this... well never mind, you are THAT guy. So I will answer your question.

At the moment I don't have questions, so why would I bother the man until I am ready to make a purchase? And for the record, I am not arguing OR casting doubt here in this thread. If anything I think I defended you guys. And really what answers are there to get when it comes to doubt? Tony has made it clear... through his people here, the ones that speak for him, that the source will not be revealed. So that's it. What the jacket was that he copied is "unknown". At this point, I can care less. But when people go "oh it's a fact..." then I speak up cause you don't know jack.

When I feel like I am ready to go the TN route, if that's what I decide and I have 1k in hand, then I will contact Tony. I might contact him before cause I am planning to go to LA in a few weeks. There is no reason to bother him before that. Hopefully that answer will make you happy and you will sleep better at night

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:01 pm

Zendragon wrote:Sorry Yohimbe, back to your wonderful jacket!

Zen, with you I'm starting to feel like Homer Simpson with Mr Burns with the repeatedly not remembering my name thing!

But if I may add my 2 cents here:

The whole "there is no absolute proof" argument is kind of lame, IMO. I respect where Zen is coming from if you want to live in a 100% theoretical environment, but the world just doesn't work like that. There is more than enough "proof" for the purposes of buying an item of clothing. It's in everything from the circumstances in which he got it to the fact the thing hits the nail on the head in terms of details that no Wested, for instance, ever has in my eyes. The proof's in the pudding. For all intents an purposes, who cares beyond that?

People could, and often are, sentenced to capital punishment without the sort of absolute proof you're reaching for. It sure as *&$% doesn't matter on a jacket - it's just semantic silliness. In real life, you've just gotta make a call and be happy.

I don't begrudge where you're coming from, but it feels like you're taking your frustration at being disappointed that your last jacket wasn't "it" enough (I can sympathise) out on the wrong guy.

On the whole making changes thing - come on - seriously? The point I think I've layed out here is there is absolutely no need for ANY changes to Tony's jacket unless you want it to look different to his exact duplicate in a specific way - as I have to make it look like a particular other jacket. The fact that there is only a need for really 2 tiny changes shows how spot on it is, and is also evidence of what Tony's got.

The difference between this situation and what you outline (as Bink says - Wested) is that with Tony you can always go back to the original pattern he has and say "I'd like that one please", maybe with X changes. How many clearly different jackets has Wested shipped with that same certificate re "original patterns" line? By logical definition that should tell you something's up, but you try and "logically" tar Nowak with the same brush.

These discussions are all such odd behaviour over a jacket. (Says the guy climbing on his sofa / flying wing!)

...and now I'm stunk into this too!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:28 am

This whole thing is such a farce but fun to follow. I honestly do belive Tony got a real jacket to copy based on the jackets I've seen. However, Zen is 110% correct that not one of you here, not one, is absolutely certain of that. Glass half full / glass half empty... but still all fun.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:45 am

Agreed, A5.

But still, let me know if you're ever in Australia for a game of poker, Zen!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:38 am

I'm more of a "glass half empty and it's cracked" man myself.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:50 am

You know for the record, I do believe that Tony got a jacket to copy. I have no doubts on that. But when people suggest who might have provided it, some answers don't work for me which creates doubt. It's really beside the point. If you believe it, good for you. I have said it before, it's best to base the jacket on it's own merits. How does it look, feel, fit, etc... to you. What do you know about Tony? Do you like how you have been treated, or how others have been treated before you? What is his history in jacket making. All of those things add up to a whole lot more than which jacket was used to make this copy.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:18 pm

agent5 wrote:
why would you not want to call and talk to the man who made the jackets for the latest movie?
Uh-oh. Looks like RCSignals has gotten to you.

Oh good, you can start in on him now

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:30 pm

agent5 wrote:
............ However, Zen is 110% correct that not one of you here, not one, is absolutely certain of that. Glass half full / glass half empty... but still all fun.

There does seem to be one, if you've been following along. _.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:42 pm

So are we sure the collar on the temple jacket has one sharp and one round tip ? Are you absolutely positive its not an optical illusion?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:57 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:So are we sure the collar on the temple jacket has one sharp and one round tip ? Are you absolutely positive its not an optical illusion?

I think there need s to be a new thread on this

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:01 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:So are we sure the collar on the temple jacket has one sharp and one round tip ? Are you absolutely positive its not an optical illusion?
I think there need s to be a new thread on this

theres already an optical illusions thread. I can't find the picture used but where does the collar tip look sharp? Anybody have that image?