What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
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Ranger36
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What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
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Last edited by Ranger36 on Thu May 01, 2014 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Indiana County Jr.
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Hi Ranger,
Definitely been there, when I first got on here, I was overwhelmed at the information about whips and who all makes them and what I should be looking for. At this moment, I can say that Bernardo Del Carpio makes (in my opinion and others...) the most screen accurate ROTLA whip you could want to date. Check him out at http://www.delcarpiowhips.com/
Crack On!
Allen
Definitely been there, when I first got on here, I was overwhelmed at the information about whips and who all makes them and what I should be looking for. At this moment, I can say that Bernardo Del Carpio makes (in my opinion and others...) the most screen accurate ROTLA whip you could want to date. Check him out at http://www.delcarpiowhips.com/
Crack On!
Allen
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Ranger36
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
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LemonLauren
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Here's a picture I labeled of a 10ft Indy whip I made. Hopefully it'll help to get you started with the terminology associated with bullwhips, and specifically the Indy whip. Another key term is "plait," which describes the number of strands the whipmaker braids with. A screen accurate whip will be 12 plait at the beginning and will finish in 6 plait just before the fall hitch. Also, the wrist loop will be 6 plait.
And here is a picture of the insides of an Indy whip with some labeling. You can also visit http://www.midwestwhips.com/HowItsMade.html to read a few more details about the innards...
There are many opinions on what makes the "perfect" screen accurate Raiders whip... I'd imagine if you've been browsing through old posts, you've already discovered this.
Lauren Wickline
http://www.midwestwhips.com
And here is a picture of the insides of an Indy whip with some labeling. You can also visit http://www.midwestwhips.com/HowItsMade.html to read a few more details about the innards...
There are many opinions on what makes the "perfect" screen accurate Raiders whip... I'd imagine if you've been browsing through old posts, you've already discovered this.
Lauren Wickline
http://www.midwestwhips.com
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Bernardodc
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Ranger36,
I guess a "perfect" ROTLA whip is a Morgan bullwhip used in that film. It doesn't get any more perfect than that, does it?
If you are interested in the features that such a whip has, there are many. Some of them are:
-8 inch steel spike as handle foundation
-lead loaded butt for balance
-12 plait overlay done in heavy kangaroo or thin kip, natural tan in color
-Two braided bellies, and two bolsters, over a rolled core.
-A 6 plait wrist loop
-The ring knot should be 5 part, 4 bight, two pass
-The big TH on the handle knob is the same knot, but three pass
-Diamond plait on the handle part
-6 strand point
-White hide fall
-Nylon popper
-Moderately heavy thong
-Overlay cut with wide strands
There are other features that are specific to older Morgan whips made in the late 70's, such as a thin handle, the ring knot located at the very end of the spike, and some other minor details here and there.
For fun and inspired in the photos that Lauren posted, I have labeled in the photo below some features that a Raiders bullwhip should have. Hope you like it
Regards,
Bernardo
http://www.delcarpiowhips.com
I guess a "perfect" ROTLA whip is a Morgan bullwhip used in that film. It doesn't get any more perfect than that, does it?
If you are interested in the features that such a whip has, there are many. Some of them are:
-8 inch steel spike as handle foundation
-lead loaded butt for balance
-12 plait overlay done in heavy kangaroo or thin kip, natural tan in color
-Two braided bellies, and two bolsters, over a rolled core.
-A 6 plait wrist loop
-The ring knot should be 5 part, 4 bight, two pass
-The big TH on the handle knob is the same knot, but three pass
-Diamond plait on the handle part
-6 strand point
-White hide fall
-Nylon popper
-Moderately heavy thong
-Overlay cut with wide strands
There are other features that are specific to older Morgan whips made in the late 70's, such as a thin handle, the ring knot located at the very end of the spike, and some other minor details here and there.
For fun and inspired in the photos that Lauren posted, I have labeled in the photo below some features that a Raiders bullwhip should have. Hope you like it
Regards,
Bernardo
http://www.delcarpiowhips.com
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LemonLauren
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Excellent list Bernardo, and thanks for joining in on the picture labeling fun! 
I think it's interesting you mention the idea that a screen accurate Raiders whip will have widely cut strands. Just like everyone who watches the movies and loves the whip will have a different idea of exactly what the most screen accurate whip will look like, even whipmakers who study and try to perfect the art of creating a perfectly screen accurate whip will have different ideas of what it should look like. For example, in my opinion, the screen used whips I've seen have strands that are cut a bit thinner, and the more modern Morgan whips have the wider cut strands. But like I said, everybody's idea of what makes a "perfect" Raiders whip is just a little bit different from the next person, and nobody's really wrong IMO - after all, there were several whips used in the filming of Raiders, and certainly each one was a little different than the others. And the lighting in each scene was different, and the angles we catch glimpses of whips from are different, and even the ages of the many whips used differed at the time of filming!
So if you do your research, and figure out what details are really important to you in a screen accurate whip, then most all of us whipmakers here on COW will probably be happy to help you create the "perfect" Raiders whip as you envision it.
Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com
PS: As usual, beautiful whip in your picture Bernardo!
I think it's interesting you mention the idea that a screen accurate Raiders whip will have widely cut strands. Just like everyone who watches the movies and loves the whip will have a different idea of exactly what the most screen accurate whip will look like, even whipmakers who study and try to perfect the art of creating a perfectly screen accurate whip will have different ideas of what it should look like. For example, in my opinion, the screen used whips I've seen have strands that are cut a bit thinner, and the more modern Morgan whips have the wider cut strands. But like I said, everybody's idea of what makes a "perfect" Raiders whip is just a little bit different from the next person, and nobody's really wrong IMO - after all, there were several whips used in the filming of Raiders, and certainly each one was a little different than the others. And the lighting in each scene was different, and the angles we catch glimpses of whips from are different, and even the ages of the many whips used differed at the time of filming!
So if you do your research, and figure out what details are really important to you in a screen accurate whip, then most all of us whipmakers here on COW will probably be happy to help you create the "perfect" Raiders whip as you envision it.
Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com
PS: As usual, beautiful whip in your picture Bernardo!
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Bernardodc
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Thanks a lot Lauren! Your whip looks great too! I was feeling like playing around with Photoshop a bit, and the camera certainly helps as you know
On the strand width of older Morgan whips, I think they are still wide; they are just not as wide as in the modern Morgan whips, and the overlapping effect in the thong is less noticeable. The wide strands is a key element in David Morgan's design, an it got more pronounced as years went by. The angle of the plaiting in the overlay in Morgan whips tends to be around 45 degrees. As you know, you can not braid at that angle without having gaps unless your strands are wide.
Here are a couple of screen grabs that are featured here on the main whip page. I think they show very clearly the wide strands, at least to my eyes
Of course, I am not trying to convince you
I am just supporting my statement. Like you said every Indy fan and/or whipmaker has his or her own ideas of what constitutes a screen accurate Indy whip, Raiders or whatever.
Regards,
Bernardo
http://www.delcarpiowhips.com
On the strand width of older Morgan whips, I think they are still wide; they are just not as wide as in the modern Morgan whips, and the overlapping effect in the thong is less noticeable. The wide strands is a key element in David Morgan's design, an it got more pronounced as years went by. The angle of the plaiting in the overlay in Morgan whips tends to be around 45 degrees. As you know, you can not braid at that angle without having gaps unless your strands are wide.
Here are a couple of screen grabs that are featured here on the main whip page. I think they show very clearly the wide strands, at least to my eyes
Of course, I am not trying to convince you
I am just supporting my statement. Like you said every Indy fan and/or whipmaker has his or her own ideas of what constitutes a screen accurate Indy whip, Raiders or whatever.Regards,
Bernardo
http://www.delcarpiowhips.com
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BullWhipBorton
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Your both WRONG! Hasbro said this was the perfect Raiders bullwhip...
Now Just look how narrow those strands are!
Seriously Ranger36, Bernardo and Lauren know there stuff and hit the nail on the head as to what makes the Raiders of the Lost Ark bullwhips special when it comes to Indy bullwhips. There is nothing more I could have added aside from a bit of humor.
Dan
Now Just look how narrow those strands are!
Seriously Ranger36, Bernardo and Lauren know there stuff and hit the nail on the head as to what makes the Raiders of the Lost Ark bullwhips special when it comes to Indy bullwhips. There is nothing more I could have added aside from a bit of humor.
Dan
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LemonLauren
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Thanks for bringing some of the screen grabs into this thread Bernardo... I probably should've done that myself. I suppose maybe this might be a bit above and beyond what the OP was originally asking for (sorry Ranger36!), but it's all interesting to me anyhow. I spend way too much time thinking about whips.
I think we both agree on the strands farther down into the thong being wider, and even the strands at the transition being cut wider than they technically might need to be - that's definitely part of the "Indy" look, and part what gives the whip its iconic rugged look. And none of the strands are nearly as thin as the new Jacka Indy 4 whip strands are, especially down toward the latter half of his thong - so I suppose you could still say that they are wide in comparison to some whips out there! So it's sort of hard to know what either of us are really saying when we talk about "wide" or "not as wide," LOL. It's all rather relative.
And on top of that, the overall diameter of Indy whips being made today (in general) seems to be growing - so strands technically as thin as the strands used on the old old Morgans would require a wider angle of braiding in order to keep them from gapping on a whip with a wider diameter. This is obviously definitely the case in one of the newest versions of the Raiders whip, as BullwhipBorton has been so kind to share with us and label in such detail. These kids and their newfangled toys nowadays, lol. What happened to the good ol' sound-barrier-breaking skin-slicing toys?
But anyways... To try and support the way I see the angle of the braiding (and thus the width of the strands), take for example the screen-used Raiders whip Sergei documented. Here's a picture of the handle portion of it from the main Indygear page, and the strands right off the transition are clearly visible. Sergei's strand width measurements in this general area vary a little, but none of them go over 8mm, and some are under that, depending on how he was measuring and where exactly. The angle of the braiding seems to tighten up a lot as you go further down into the thong, but the angle looks a bit wider to me in the transition area, quite at bit wider than 45 degrees, maybe even wider than 90 degrees, which makes me think the strands aren't really too wide in that section at all.
But of course that's just one whip... they're all a bit different for sure, and the angles and lighting the whip is shown in on-screen can change how we see the whips as well. There's about a zillion other little details too, and I've always found it really interesting getting orders for Indy whips from people who have their own little things they want to make sure are a part of the finished whip, things that are important to them in making the ultimate "perfect" SA Raiders whip. I think it's neat that of the handful of us on COW who strive to make SA whips, each of our whips are different enough that we can all tell each others' apart, and each others' apart from Morgan's, and Morgan's early whips apart from his later ones, and so on. Very cool And it's all thanks to our love of Indy.
I think we both agree on the strands farther down into the thong being wider, and even the strands at the transition being cut wider than they technically might need to be - that's definitely part of the "Indy" look, and part what gives the whip its iconic rugged look. And none of the strands are nearly as thin as the new Jacka Indy 4 whip strands are, especially down toward the latter half of his thong - so I suppose you could still say that they are wide in comparison to some whips out there! So it's sort of hard to know what either of us are really saying when we talk about "wide" or "not as wide," LOL. It's all rather relative.
And on top of that, the overall diameter of Indy whips being made today (in general) seems to be growing - so strands technically as thin as the strands used on the old old Morgans would require a wider angle of braiding in order to keep them from gapping on a whip with a wider diameter. This is obviously definitely the case in one of the newest versions of the Raiders whip, as BullwhipBorton has been so kind to share with us and label in such detail.
These kids and their newfangled toys nowadays, lol. What happened to the good ol' sound-barrier-breaking skin-slicing toys?But anyways... To try and support the way I see the angle of the braiding (and thus the width of the strands), take for example the screen-used Raiders whip Sergei documented. Here's a picture of the handle portion of it from the main Indygear page, and the strands right off the transition are clearly visible. Sergei's strand width measurements in this general area vary a little, but none of them go over 8mm, and some are under that, depending on how he was measuring and where exactly. The angle of the braiding seems to tighten up a lot as you go further down into the thong, but the angle looks a bit wider to me in the transition area, quite at bit wider than 45 degrees, maybe even wider than 90 degrees, which makes me think the strands aren't really too wide in that section at all.
But of course that's just one whip... they're all a bit different for sure, and the angles and lighting the whip is shown in on-screen can change how we see the whips as well. There's about a zillion other little details too, and I've always found it really interesting getting orders for Indy whips from people who have their own little things they want to make sure are a part of the finished whip, things that are important to them in making the ultimate "perfect" SA Raiders whip. I think it's neat that of the handful of us on COW who strive to make SA whips, each of our whips are different enough that we can all tell each others' apart, and each others' apart from Morgan's, and Morgan's early whips apart from his later ones, and so on. Very cool
And it's all thanks to our love of Indy.-
Ranger36
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
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Last edited by Ranger36 on Thu May 01, 2014 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vaderbreath
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Wow, that is one beautiful whip...but just like a Morgan, it's probably out of my price range.BullWhipBorton wrote:Your both WRONG! Hasbro said this was the perfect Raiders bullwhip...
Now Just look how narrow those strands are!
Dan
This is a great thread, btw. Great info for all of us interested in whips!
-Corey
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Canuck Digger
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Lauren,
that Indy whip is sick! I love it!
that Indy whip is sick! I love it!
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myrddin
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Only a true SA whip has the soundtrack readily available at the touch of a button.BullWhipBorton wrote:Your both WRONG! Hasbro said this was the perfect Raiders bullwhip...
My three-year-old got this for Christmas and loves running around the house with the hat of the day* and cracking.
*If he sees a hat, it's his for the day, whether it's his grandfather's fedora type leather hat, a straw hat, plastic party hat, his plastic cowboy hat, or one his floppy cowboy hat.
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LemonLauren
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
LOL, those toy whips are way to much fun, even for grownups. The first time I got ahold of one, I completely became a kid again - I started running around the yard, "whipping" it around in the air and pushing the button over and over and over, much to the annoyance of Paul. Although it turns out the only reason he was annoyed was because he wanted his turn with it. 
Thanks Franco, btw.
Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com
Thanks Franco, btw.
Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com
Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
If you want to get REALLY detailed and crazy, here's a list of measurements the late "Sergei" took of a screen used Raiders bullwhip.
For clarification, on the measurements that are shown as X / Y, the first number is the screen used whip, and the second is that same measurement taken from a modern DM bullwhip.
Shane
For clarification, on the measurements that are shown as X / Y, the first number is the screen used whip, and the second is that same measurement taken from a modern DM bullwhip.
Shane
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Ranger36
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
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Last edited by Ranger36 on Thu May 01, 2014 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Ranger36 wrote:Who you calling crazy!?Just kidding
Thanks very much Mcfly,
Ranger36
You're welcome!Shane
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Bernardodc
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
I know someone who got that detailed and crazy...McFly wrote:If you want to get REALLY detailed and crazy, here's a list of measurements the late "Sergei" took of a screen used Raiders bullwhip.
His new bullwhip is now almost finished...enter the Borton Raiders MK III ! I'll post some pics of it soon.
Regards,
Bernardo
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BullWhipBorton
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
I know someone who got that detailed and crazy...
His new bullwhip is now almost finished...enter the Borton Raiders MK III ! I'll post some pics of it soon.
Regards,
Bernardo
Ok, yeah maybe he got a lil crazy and detailed He can't wait to see his new MK III bullwhip!
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Canuck Digger
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Well I'm not expert, but I play one on television.. hahaha.
What has always struck me about the Raiders whip was the long thin handle design and just how thin the whip was compared to my idea of a bullwhip (as per all the other bullwhips I'd seen around that time).
Another aspect of the design, which supports Bernardo's statement about the wide strands, is the accute angle of plaiting; it HAD to be a good 45 degrees! This I remember clearly from pics at the time the film came out...
I know Bernardo has reaserched this long and hard and has seen many a screen cap and/or screen used whip, so I'll keep to his observations in this matter. I know different people like their whips to be of different colors, or at different stages in their aging process... Mine has always been for the slightly darker shades... Maybe not as dark as some of the whips used in Temple Of Doom, but certainly darker than the Cairo whip. But hey, to each his own right?
Cheers all,
Franco
What has always struck me about the Raiders whip was the long thin handle design and just how thin the whip was compared to my idea of a bullwhip (as per all the other bullwhips I'd seen around that time).
Another aspect of the design, which supports Bernardo's statement about the wide strands, is the accute angle of plaiting; it HAD to be a good 45 degrees! This I remember clearly from pics at the time the film came out...
I know Bernardo has reaserched this long and hard and has seen many a screen cap and/or screen used whip, so I'll keep to his observations in this matter. I know different people like their whips to be of different colors, or at different stages in their aging process... Mine has always been for the slightly darker shades... Maybe not as dark as some of the whips used in Temple Of Doom, but certainly darker than the Cairo whip. But hey, to each his own right?
Cheers all,
Franco
Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Awesome, Dan! Sounds great!
Shane
Shane
Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
So... what happened with this whip? Any news, Dan? Bernardo?Bernardodc wrote: His new bullwhip is now almost finished...enter the Borton Raiders MK III ! I'll post some pics of it soon.
Regards,
Bernardo
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Ranger36
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Re: What makes up the perfect ROTLA whip?
Perhaps it should be made a sticky?Vaderbreath wrote:This is a great thread, btw. Great info for all of us interested in whips!
-Corey