What color was the Raiders Shirt???

[Puppetboy]

This question can't be answered, which is why it is fun to discuss. Of course, we can look at the screen used shirts and see the real-life color, but most of us really care about what it looked like on screen, which is subjective.

I hope I don't go over my picture limit here! Here are four screen caps from Raiders, no adjustments, just as they came from the DVD. All four show the shirt out of direct sunlight.

The next one, please note the contrast between the white of Marion's shirt, the white of the paper HF is holding, and the tan of the man to his left.

The next one, please compare Indy's colors with Sallah's. I take it that Sallah's shirt is white and his suit is cream color.

And lastly, compare the whites in the photo with the shirt. White pillows, white bowls, a white towel, and Marion's white dress.


Now here is a comparison photo taken under controlled conditions of three shirts with the same jacket and WWII Officer's pinks. The camera is a Nikon D50, white balanced, and only adjusted for exposure and saturation (the D50 is a little oversaturated). What do you think?

[Herr Doktor]

Just my untrained eye on an uncalibrated monitor...my impressions:

WPG is too light.
Todd's is a tad too "yellow." Needs to move towards the grey a bit more.
USMC is way too yellow, with a hint of red.

[Photoss]

I think wpg is closest of the 3, based on the screencaps you put up, but it's hard to tell at times.

[Rabittooth]

WPG looks the best to me there. I've always perceived the Raiders shirt to be more of a warm gray or stone color.

-Rabittooth

[starks_6]

Puppetboy I think your shirt is close in colour, but as Herr Doktor said, just a tad yellow, needs a spot of grey. It does contrast with the other gear extremely well though, and well wearable as mines been worn and washed several times already. It goes to show in contrast how dark some of the other gear is, especially the pants! by the way are you going to be dong pants?

A few of us have praised the AB on its colour as Its more grey than the WPG shirt (which I think is too white) , it may not be quite dark enough for perfection but as a in and outside shirt the colour doesnt look to white in the sun, it contrasts all around.

[Puppetboy]

Okay, here's a few more. One taken in shade with the camera set on auto and the other in the sun. On my calibrated monitor, they all comparatively look as they do in person. The shade picture might be best.

Sun:


Shade:

[Mulceber]

Yep, WPG looks best imo. :junior: -M

[Indiana Neri]

Going by the comparison pix, and being able to see the DVD grab and the sample comparisons next to each other, I'd say - out of the three - Todd's looks the best, as far as what we see on screen. If you look at the pic of the three vendor samples AND at the above pic taken from the Bantu Wind scene, Todd's is the most accurate color. In my honest opinion. I think the WPG shirt is what we all PRECEIVED to be color wise, but, again, looking at the grabs, Todd's is the most SA color. That's my opinion

[Vaderbreath]

I agree that to me, Todd's looks the closest. This shirt seems to be a bit tricky to capture the true color of, but in all the comparison shots I've seen I think Todd's looks pretty dang close. Of course, I don't have one in my hands, but if Todd would like to send me one so I can analyze it better, I'd be happy to do so.

-Corey

[Chewbacca Jones]

In these photos, I'd go with WPG as the most accurate color. But owning one, I find it a tad too dark in person. The undertones are right, but ultimately too dark. But it's a tough color to match, I agree. I prefer the lighter variations, personally.

[Indiana MarkVII]

I just received two of Todd's shirts and they are no where near the color posted. These are the darkest of all of my Indy shirts. I own WPG, AB, 2 Wested and 2 Todd's. The AB seems to be the closest to any sun lit shot, and the Westeds are a bit light. Todd's got the best price, for now, but the hue is a bit dark to be my favorite. Have all the other shirt makers been wrong to date?

[bigrex]

The WPG does not look that light in person, neither does Todd's, I don't know about the Marines. The image below has been adjusted via Photoshop to reproduce what I am seeing with my own eyes. The contrasting colors looks true to life on my screen at least. Todd's on the right, WPG on the left.

[Chewbacca Jones]

bigrex, that looks about right on my monitor. I have a Magnoli in stone. It's actually a little too light, I think, but it's the lightest I've seen aside from an NH.

[Herr Doktor]

Well, now I don't know what to do.

From all these pics, I'm more inclined towards the WPG shirt, because it is closer to (paraphrasing another member here) what I perceive the Indy shirt color to be.

[Bruce Wayne]

I agree with a lot of yoi guys, in the fact that the WPG shirt is closest in colour shown in the screen grabs in the first post. however, magnoli's shirt in stone is perfect in colour for what is seen on screen in direct sunlight.

[Holt]

Todd's shirt is perfect in my opinion.

I love the 3 I have

great job todd

high regards
Holt

[Fink]

I love my Todd’s shirt color! But I must confess I’m tempted to try a dye over the original color with a little, just a little bit of gray... But not with my current shirt, I’m planning to order a few more and then I should run my little experiment with one of those!

[Chewbacca Jones]

Some words of caution on the WPG shirts. It may have that elusive "grayness" and the fabric may be tough as nails... but the stitching is weak. All I did was wash mine (didn't even wear it yet) and I had to do repair work. Also, the sizing is scary-big. I'm a man of generous proportions, and I would still like to have it taken in. But I don't think the shirt is worth paying for the modifications.

[WeeMadHamish]

In Raiders, the sweat stains on Indy's shirt are quite clearly toward the brownish. This would indicate that his shirt is a light beige or tan.

My Todd's shirt, when wet, turns a dark khaki. While I think the overall tone of the shirt is correct, I agree with others in that it's too yellow.

Most of the shots where Indy's shirt take on a greenish or yellowish hue are under studio lighting conditions, presumably at Elstree. The "Complete Making Of" says that they used these big arc lights, which tended to give off a very goldish sort of light.

In the exterior (Cairo) scenes, lit primarily by natural light (augmented by arc lights), the shirt seems to be more of a natural or unbleached white.

I think the NH shirt is the right color, but the shade of it is too dark.

[Rambler]

I think by looking at puppetboy's photos in his ogininal post in this thread that the best way to judge is by a sort of parallel comparison. e.g.
How do the screen cap shirts look in comparison to not only the white objects, but also to the pants and jacket. Then, look at the three shirts in his last photo next to the officers pinks. The pinks are far lighter than the screencap pants. So, if youy are trying to get the relative contrast between the shirt and pants in that photo (the pinks photo) correct, the WPG, the lightest, is the right contrast. However, looking at how the jacket and pants are a medium and dark brown respectively in the screen caps, to get a shirt to be the correct RELATIVE contrast, it would probably be the Todd's.
I think the USMC shirt would actually be fine (in color) if it were a slightly lighter weight fabric and had been harshly batchelor washed a bunch of times (I have a few of these and they lighten with age and abuse).
My eyes have always seen Indy's clothes: jacket, pants, shirt all to be shades of brown fron darkest to lightest (fedora too for that matter)
It is like he is a sepia tone photo!

[BTJepson]

I just purchased a Todd's online and, from what I've seen on this post, the Todd's looks the best to my eyes. At least it's my preference over the others. The WPG just looks too light for my taste.

I'm sure I'll love it no matter what. It'll look great with my new FED IV.

[Rabittooth]

I still say WPG.

-Rabittooth

[Redinight]

I just love Todds shirt!!! However, I need to try it in more of a stone color right now!!!!

[Indywanabe91]

What do you do to dye a shirt a little darker (grayer)

[indyfan1234]

todds is a tad yellow but you can make todds screen accurate very easily
what you do is put ur todds shirt in the washer with warm water then add one pair of brand new out of the bag black socks then when done its now stone color i personally haven't done this yet but ive seen another member do this and it looked perfect here is the thread that contains pictures its on page two

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... 1&start=50

its in the middle towards the bottom

[Hollowpond]

In my eyes, as well as in my minds eye (from watching the movies a kabillion times!), I believe a blend of that khaki/stone color is correct. Looking at the pic rabbittooth posted above at the begining of Raiders...that shirt looks much more grey/stone that tan/khaki.

[Indiana Green]

For those of you who think Todd's shirt is a little too yellow, here's a tip I learned from dyeing my Ghostbusters uniform:

The basis for alot of fans' uniforms is a Rothco flightsuit, which any gbfan will tell you, comes in the most hideous yellow ever. The remedy for this involves color stripping (which i don't necessarily recommend for Indy shirts) and then dyeing with pearl gray RIT dye and a hint of purple dye. Basically, the tiny purple particles of color sitting next to the tiny particles of yellow color "trick" the eye into seeing less yellow hues, thus neutralizing the icky goldenrod. This is just an idea and I have NOT tested it on an Indy shirt, though I may in the future.

-Indy Green

[darthjones]

I wish I had a pic. but for now I'll tell you this - I bathed my Todd's in a hot bathtub with some bleach in it for a bit then let it dry.

Color had diminished some which was the intent.

Then I took a tiny bit of RIT black and placed it into the tub (noticed that, when diluted it is a reddish black).

Dropped a little bit of RIT blue (I forget which blue! but the most straightforward blue - NOT navy) in there too.

Mixed up that solution.

Dropped the shirt in for about only 5 minutes or so, stirring the whole time.

Took it out when it felt/ looked right, rinsed it in cold water, and hung it to dry.

I dyed my WPG with a TEENSY bit of red since it is so gray too.

Heck, what I'll try and do now is take a picture of my UNALTERED AB shirt, dyed WPG, and dyed Todd's all together.

Wish me luck!

[darthjones]

This is of a Todd's next to an AB - I was going for the NH color I guess in the Todd's.

My WPG is close to this Todd's shirt with a little more gray/ purple in it.

But my WPG is not here at the moment.

[Bullitt]

I wouldn't recommend using bleach on any piece of fabric, simply because it deteriorates the fibres. Color remover is the way to go.

[darthjones]

Agreed. I was being a bit compulsive (story of my life). But what is weird is that in the pictures the difference between the two shirts seems too pronounced when I post them. They're closer than that.

But you get the idea.

I'm surprised the WPG doesn't get mentioned more often.

[Bullitt]

Anyway, the outcome is very good colorwise.
I don't own one, but I believe the sentiment on WPG is that the color is good, but the design is not. I gather it's a pretty wide shirt and the material and details are off. Since you do own one, tell me what you think of it compared to the others.

[darthjones]

I think the WPG shirt is great color wise for Raiders. And the material has a bit of that sheen to it that seems more accurate.

I'll get a picture of it at some point.

Now the shirt seems a little less tailored but that can be fixed.

Or just tuck it in!

I'll have to do a more hardcore review this weekend or so (and go get it back from my dad's where I accidentally left it).

[Erri]

Puppetboy, it's somewhat refreshing to think that you actually posted this question-thread. It's fun to discuss these things of course but I also got the impression that you are one of the few vendors who actually listen carefully to his customers and for that I am thankful.

You know my opinion on the matter, the NH shirts are the most accurate in colour and material and yes, my fellow indygearers, they can also look as bright as some cairo scenes under the sun.


(notice, last picture shows NH trousers while the other ones are Wested, the shirt is a NH in all of them)

I've always cared more of what the costumes looked like in real life than as they appeared in my mind or on the TV. I'm of the "real-colour" school as opposed to the "as-seen-on-screen-colour" school. Now I can help you with determine approximately which colour on the pantone was the real Raiders shirt but the important question is, do your customers want a real-colour or a screen-colour? And if the latter... from which scene?(??)

Also the shirt in possession of Noel Howard has been quite widely photographed... and is supposed to be from Raiders (according to theories and evidences which I find quite reliable), now that will be a great help too if you're after the real colour of the Raiders shirt.

Thanks again Puppetboy for your attention to customers

PS I can't see the pictures you posted in your first post

[indygr]

Koszonom Szepam for the pictures Erri. You are from Hungary aren't you?

Indeed, the NH trousers have less pink into them. They tend to become much easier grey than the Wested. A pic with NH under the sun would be also very helpful.

Thanks and Yo Napot(I hope I spelled correctly:):) )

[Erri]

I also hope it's spelled correctly because I'm not hungarian I'm from Italy, that was a trip I did. If you do a search around you'll see plenty of my NH trousers, I only posted one with those because I focused only on the shirt for this thread

[indygr]

Ha ha that's funny!!

I stayed in Hungary for 3 months for an internship during my university studies. That's why I know these words...I know also some more.

So in order to correct myself, grazie per le immagini:):)!

Indygr

[Erri]

haha non c'è di che! ;-)

[starks_6]

Now I can help you with determine approximately which colour on the pantone was the real Raiders shirt but the important question is, do your customers want a real-colour or a screen-colour? And if the latter... from which scene?(??)

I think something that needs to come into account is the way the shirt goes with the pants. For example I currently own a TODDs shirt and it almost blends in with my Magnoli pants, Which suit quite well with my Adventurebuilt shirt which is much lighter. I Believe that the NH colour most probably is the most correct.

I think however if your going to be accurate with the shirt colour puppetboy, you need to start selling pants in an accurate colour so they can suit correctly

[gwyddion]

You guys know this thread is almost a year old, right?

Regards, Geert

[Erri]

Actually no, LOL! I didn't notice

[Alkali Jones]

Hey All,

When I saw the title, I thought someone was going to post Pantone info or US military standard colors or something. Hey Kt. Templar, this sort of thing is up your alley, do you think you could adopt this project. I know you know color theory. When next it's convenient for you, would you be able to check the original pants, shirt, & jacket against a color standard we can all reference? I know it's asking alot, but I think all of us would be greatful for your efforts.

Dan S

[Erri]

Kt does not have access to those original gear parts unless he goes to visit Anthony Powell. You can only hope that he took the pantone book with him while visiting Peter during those days when Peter temporarly held them in his shop

[indygr]

As I understood, Peter has the control samples(which are swatches) that Noel Howard had stored for his own references. He also has the patterns of both shirts and pants.

Therefore, I think that it's easy for him to specify the correct colours.

Indygr

[Kt Templar]

Hi guys. The originals went back to Mr Powell and have since passed into the hands of a collector.

The control samples are actual finished shirts, these are the ones that Noel kept as "Control Samples" ie samples to check against.

There are also various cloth samples, shirt material and trouser material. I believe they have handwritten tags noting which film etc.

[Erri]

Thanks for the update KT!!

[indygr]

Thanks Kt!