neutronbomb wrote:we're at each others throats because a select person or two desperately tries to find something, anything to tear down one specific vendor. They pull up something, a collar or a pocket or anything to throw up and try and start a fire. It's always directed in one direction. It is crystal clear the intent is to promote one vendor at the expense of another. One method is to try and create issues out of non-issues.
"But the guys who keep saying that Nowak is changing his pocket (or collar or whatever) design are simply basing their arguments on photos that mean next to zero OR changes requested by a customer OR simple differences in how the leather curled or reacted to the stitching." - Raider S
I think this sums it up nicely. Who cares. Really, what does it matter. These are hand made jackets made out of different types of leather possibly different sizes. TN uses his eye and expertise to make the jacket look good for each person. To specifically state TN's pattern just randomly changes is preposterous.
For the sake of argument let's say we use rulers and get scientific evidence, blah, blah, blah and one pocket is in fact 1/8th difference somehow. What does this mean. We would have to talk to Chris King and TN and have a full explanation of what the deal is. What if by some chance, hypothetically, TN says hey, these are custom made jackets and I decided it needed to be this way on this particular jacket because the owner asked for piping (which he did) to be added. Are we talking about a pattern change? Are we talking about sloppy work? TN is a master craftsman, so let's be careful on jumping to conclusions on all this.
Next there will be a thread started about how these jackets are all screwed up because 225 stitches were used in one area while on another jacket 226 stitches were used. Let's call this what it is. Desperately trying to find something, anything wrong with a vendor's product.
How quickly we all want to try and give credit to these "issues" from the select few who throw them out there for us to fight amongst ourselves over when they are clearly running campaigns on other websites to disparage one particular vendor. It's one thing to simply tolerate this, but another to allow ourselves to wind up arguing and bickering over non-issues. I imagine it's like throwing a bone into a group of ravenous dogs and then sitting back and watching the show.
On another thread DJ threw out, "hey ALL vendors patterns change over time. This is just a fact of life." He backs this up with pictures which have been found to have owner mods stated right where he copied them from. Additionally, there are a thousand, million, hundred reasons there could be slight differences including:
1. Optical Illusions - which is what this thread is about. Raider S has shown with his particular jacket's pocket flaps that this indeed is an issue with trying to rely solely on pictures for measurements and comparisons. Raider S has clearly proved his point.
2. Maybe an adjustment for whatever reason.
3. It's been stated again and again that these are hand crafted leather jackets and no two will ever be the same.
None of this gives credence to the supposed argument that there has been pattern changes. What is the point of this? Really! Let's think about it for a second. On every major argument whether it's pocket flaps, collar, shrunken lamb, off the shoulders, etc. etc. it is the exact same stuff. The exact same. Let's call it what it is. Tearing down one vendor to promote another.
There is no reason for this. Zero. We have lots and lots of choices. There are half a dozen or so vendors to choose from with a wide range of prices. There's going to be differences and pros and cons between all them.
For the most part I've noticed the discussions revolve around how to order or fix or correct or take care of different stuff. People ask for help and then those members who have experience help out.
So on this particular argument let me ask the question. So what? What if there are differences. To the other side I ask "So what?" What's your point. It sound like your point is to prove that we're all screwed because ALL vendors including TN evolve and change their patterns. It sounds like you want to prove that argument because it is clear that this is the case for Wested and you want to be sure that this isn't perceived as a negative because, "hey, everyone does it."
And really, this argument goes right back to: TN's better because he had a real "hero" jacket to copy. No, no, he didn't and even if he did it has lots of problem and the original maker is simply better because he's the original maker.
That's really what this is all about. Where's the fear coming from KT and DJ and everyone else? These vendors are in different niche markets. As far as I can tell nothings happening to drive Wested out of business. They seem to be selling jackets by the boatload and I can tell you right now there is no way these little games are going to drive the business from one vendor to another. The reason many buy the TN jacket is not because a stitch is different, or a pocket flap has a minor variance. All vendors appeal to a slightly different buyers group and they all have different strengths.
However, if it is really that important to find and catalog any minor differences that exist in these jackets that are custom and hand crafted, then by all means have at it and when we've exhausted all the TN jackets we can move on to all the jackets produced by the other half a dozen vendors.
I find all of this Vendor stuff odd, I mean I suppose we all have our preferences, and nobody really likes thinking that they have the new "it" item only to find out that there is another new thing, so I can see people defending their choice lol.
But unless a person has something to gain financially, I have no idea why anyone would fight so hard for any of the vendors. In addition, the truth is, most people who have some $$ will buy a few different options, that's the way it is with collecting, it doesn't stop at just the one. So there isn't really a threat.
The people who can only afford a Todd's may opt to go that way, when others might save for a Magnoli, G&B, Wested or US Wings, and others might opt to save for a TN, but most who have trouble saving for a $300-$500 jacket will not likely go the TN route and that's understandable.
I am not even sure what the pattern change argument came from, except that I am sure that some see that there are changes from what was supposed to be a jacket copied from an original. Why would there be some ask?
For me at least, I have no preference here, I barely care at this point. Sure I find the story around the TN an interesting one and that comes partly from the time that I have spent on this board. Call it curiosity and nothing more. I am still looking at the TN as a possible purchase, so my post about this subject are purely observations.
My post do seem to strike a nerve with some of you. Raider S, RC Signals and Nuetron seem to be bothered the most by them. You guys seem to get really defensive. Maybe it's just your passion for your purchase, the desire to defend TN, or something else.
I really think that everyone just wants to be right lol.
It's been said before, buy what you like and enjoy it. If we could just get the rest of us to just be happy that another person is enjoying the hobby instead of preaching that this gear is better than that one, we might be a whole lot better off.
I know, that would ruin the fun wouldn't it ;-)
I think that it may be time to put this all to rest.
(just having a bit of fun here...no offense to anyone)
- there's not much distortion at all - guess I took a few steps backward after all before taking the shot that I endedposting. But a closer shot with a wider lens was making that sucker look like it was out of Saturday Night Fever.