TN Raiders in CS movie

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:55 pm

Now that there are a number of TN Raiders owners and pics and descriptions available ,do you think CS movie (I know it was Bernie's Decision) would have looked better and more 'Indy' if the TN Raiders had been used instead of the CS jacket ?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:16 pm

Hatch wrote:Now that there are a number of TN Raiders owners and pics and descriptions available ,do you think CS movie (I know it was Bernie's Decision) would have looked better and more 'Indy' if the TN Raiders had been used instead of the CS jacket ?

I don't know if it would have looked better, but it would have been a nice connection to the first movie.

I'm one of the people who liked the CS movie. It did have the 'serial' effect of old still IMO.
I think the idea was, and I remember Bernie saying it, that Indy has had several hats and jackets over the years, he just sticks with a like style. We aren't supposed to believe they are all the same pieces.
To me the CS jacket is an 'evolved' jacket. It's more of a real world piece than the others.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:25 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Hatch wrote:Now that there are a number of TN Raiders owners and pics and descriptions available ,do you think CS movie (I know it was Bernie's Decision) would have looked better and more 'Indy' if the TN Raiders had been used instead of the CS jacket ?
I don't know if it would have looked better, but it would have been a nice connection to the first movie.

I'm one of the people who liked the CS movie. It did have the 'serial' effect of old still IMO.
I think the idea was, and I remember Bernie saying it, that Indy has had several hats and jackets over the years, he just sticks with a like style. We aren't supposed to believe they are all the same pieces.
To me the CS jacket is an 'evolved' jacket. It's more of a real world piece than the others.

Well it could have 'evoved ' into the cow like Indy G has or even a goat...just don't think the CS 'moves' like the TN Raiders.....and visually would have been better.........

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:33 pm

i would have loved to see a TN-1 goatskin on ford for CS...in keeping with the whole 'real world materials' thing.....can't beat goat hey raider s??? (can i have your jacket?

)

of course, you also have to make some minor adjustments with that new jacket:

- put the #### bag strap under the jacket
- tighten up that pinch a little on the fed

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:35 pm

I'm just wondering if they could have used the CS pattern with the TN1 leather. As you mentioned, considering it was Bernie's fingerprints on this film, the TN1 pattern (let's say what it is, the Wested Raiders design) would have never been used.

The reason they used cowhide was because there was so much water involved in the production. I, too, think goatskin would have been nice.

Regards !Michaelson

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:36 pm

I agree that a thin goatskin would have been more visually dramatic. Doesn't goatskin stand up to water as well as cowhide?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:38 pm

i was just thinking out loud.........if they did go with the TN-1 cut, uncle george and stevie would have needed to let ford continue with his pre-movie work-out routines. as the jacket is significantly shorter to the CS cut.......he would need to get rid of more of that ponch to compliment it (see the area 51 outside hangar scenes).......yup, i just don't do justice to my TN1's, but i'm working on it!!!!

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:44 pm

I just wish 'Frank" had made that trip to TN's earlier in production.........

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:45 pm

Indiana G wrote:i was just thinking out loud.........if they did go with the TN-1 cut, uncle george and stevie would have needed to let ford continue with his pre-movie work-out routines. as the jacket is significantly shorter to the CS cut.......he would need to get rid of more of that ponch to compliment it (see the area 51 outside hangar scenes).......yup, i just don't do justice to my TN1's, but i'm working on it!!!!

Actually, the jackets (Ford size) are the same front length

jacksdad · Post by **jacksdad** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:55 pm

plus remember he got shot in Raiders so he needed a new jacket anyway. I agree with his adventures he probably went through alot of jackets. Ripped, torn ,burnt I would bet and think if Indy fell into something he couldn't get the smell out of.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:14 pm

Yes. I hate the CS jacket in all forms. Tony's Raiders jacket is far superior, IMHO. Better in color, drape, and overall look.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:16 pm

jacksdad wrote:plus remember he got shot in Raiders so he needed a new jacket anyway. I agree with his adventures he probably went through alot of jackets. Ripped, torn ,burnt I would bet and think if Indy fell into something he couldn't get the smell out of.

Are you kidding?! If you get shot, you patch that jacket and keep it!!! Who would get rid of a jacket with a bullet hole in it!?

(I just think he never got his jacket back from the Bantu Wind)

I think goatskin stands up to water better than horsehide.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:30 pm

Baldwyn wrote: I think goatskin stands up to water better than horsehide.

Yes, but I think the choice for cow might have something to do with the fact that when wet it actualy looks wet.

My own personal theory as to why they chose cow instead of goat or horse, so its probably totaly wrong though

Regards, Geert

Post by **Holt** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:32 pm

I saw somewere that Bernie said he wanted something with more character, something that could take a beating and also get wet...

so they went with cowhide...

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:11 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:I saw somewere that Bernie said he wanted something with more character, something that could take a beating and also get wet...

so they went with cowhide...

You know that's a good point, and it all makes sense. We all know lamb doesn't really take a beating, but goat and horsehide don't distress easily. They weren't going to hand-distress each of the 30 jackets like the old days with this production, so cowhide makes the most sense.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:23 pm

I think cowhide looks great on film although the Nowak jackets might have been made too good and not "Hollywood" enough; I'd like to see what much thinner leather would have looked like.

I like the CS jacket design overall but feel it's too wide in the front for some reason. Can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is, though. I also think the distressing on the jackets could have gone a step farther - really make it look like it's has a few more adventures.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:28 pm

Indiana G wrote:.....can't beat goat hey raider s??? (can i have your jacket? )

Of course you can have it. In fact, I've just taken it off so it's already warmed up for you: I'll leave the keys in the ignition and start you off with a full tank of Pecards.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:49 am

Raider S wrote:
Indiana G wrote:.....can't beat goat hey raider s??? (can i have your jacket? )
Of course you can have it. In fact, I've just taken it off so it's already warmed up for you: I'll leave the keys in the ignition and start you off with a full tank of Pecards.

it would be a crime for me to steal someone's enjoyment of that jacket. let me see if bink will take it for me

BazzanoJones · Post by **BazzanoJones** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:19 am

I like the CS pattern and leather because give to me the idea of an old but very sturdy jacket...exactly what is became Indy over the years!

Yes, the Raiders goatskin it's more drapey and "enlivened" on screen but, imho, it's an totally action jacket for a young Indy.

My point of view is that the jackets in the movies was like a second skin for Indy and it's right that it will change with him during years.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:30 am

Bernie seemd to have his mind set on cowhide from the beginning. The sample they copied was cowhide. Lamb was rejected sight unseen and I guess the drapey goat was too.

Even the near bullet proof 'washed veg lamb' (Indy G has one) was rejected, that stuff is like plate armour.

Orl · Post by **Orl** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:02 am

Hatch wrote:Now that there are a number of TN Raiders owners and pics and descriptions available ,do you think CS movie (I know it was Bernie's Decision) would have looked better and more 'Indy' if the TN Raiders had been used instead of the CS jacket ?

CS jacket has look great, the problem is the measurements in the movie it's big to Harrison Ford.
In the other fimls the jackets regardless of the leather, when Indy wears the jacket the look is great.

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:15 am

CS jacket has look great, the problem is the measurements in the movie it's big to Harrison Ford.
In the other fimls the jackets regardless of the leather, when Indy wears the jacket the look is great.

I wasnt keen on the look of the CS jacket atall, looked too "distressed" to me, and you're right it did seem too big on Ford. I agree with most other folks in that the Raiders jacket just had a sertain something about it that made it unique.

scott

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:45 am

I can understand going with cowhide, and distressing it so they were pretty well screen ready from the start. But my first impression was they had sort of made a car coat length out of a jacket. I think it was definitely too large, but intentionally so. And honestly, Harrison Ford wasn't that out of shape. I saw pics of him in a t-shirt and he could easily still wear a shorter jacket. I do think there was an intentional "progress to the character" and part of that was to think of what a guy in his late 50s was comfortable wearing in that time period.

The short jacket was definitely a product of the 30s and 40s, and pretty much had gone away once styles changed (30s) and there were no shortages of materials (40s). The only people who preserved the short jacket were for functional reasons such as those on motorcycles.

Orl · Post by **Orl** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:54 am

Tibor wrote:I can understand going with cowhide, and distressing it so they were pretty well screen ready from the start. But my first impression was they had sort of made a car coat length out of a jacket. I think it was definitely too large, but intentionally so. And honestly, Harrison Ford wasn't that out of shape. I saw pics of him in a t-shirt and he could easily still wear a shorter jacket. I do think there was an intentional "progress to the character" and part of that was to think of what a guy in his late 50s was comfortable wearing in that time period.

The short jacket was definitely a product of the 30s and 40s, and pretty much had gone away once styles changed (30s) and there were no shortages of materials (40s). The only people who preserved the short jacket were for functional reasons such as those on motorcycles.

Ok! but the style Indy jackets, are short jackets. Maybe 1" more or less large. The question is Why did they make the jacket long and big for CS film?

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:29 am

Indy G, what are your feelings about your Indy 1 in cow now that you've had it a few months ? ...Bernie could have had his cow and we could have had the look we've wanted in a jacket for all these years.......

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:07 am

Hey Ori,

I think they made them longer because that was the style in the 1950s for guys of Indy's age. The car coat length was where things had gone. I absolutely agree that it lost some of it's "Indy-ness", but happily Indy didn't. My favorite look is the Raiders jacket, but I understand the historic context. Same reason why Young Indy didn't wear leather very often. It wasn't really in fashion unless you were a driver or flyer, and had the means to afford the appropriate outerwear.

Whether we always agree with creative decisions by Lucas and Spielberg, I have to tip my hat to their efforts at historic accuracy. From what I've heard, the Redtails movie about the Tuskegee airmen will be very authentic.

I like the shorter jackets, like the A-2 and such, but they don't always look good on everyone. I think Harrison Ford would look fine, but in the 1950s, there were very few 65 year olds who would be caught in a short jacket. (I know, Indy's not that old in the movie, but the "Gramps" references work better when he fits that image).

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:14 am

As you're aware (or should be by now), I drive a 1950 Plymouth daily. In winter, a car coat length jacket is a must. There is no heater (to speak of) in the old cars, and a short coat just lets your backside freeze.

The length of the CS jacket is, indeed, period correct for the 1950's.

Regards! Michaelson

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:15 am

Maybe they should have had him in the cardigan from MOTB

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:34 am

Michaelson wrote:The length of the CS jacket is, indeed, period correct for the 1950's.

That's cool and all, but don't you think you're giving Pollack and all too much credit? I think it's just as likely that Pollack just wanted to put his own stamp on the movie, making the jacket just different enough from the others. The reason I suspect this is because making the costume era-specific was never mentioned in any of the DVD extras, we saw on the DVD and read on COW how Pollack wanted to make the fedora "just different enough", and no aspects of the hero costume were updated to 1957 styles. Pollack also stated that Spielberg was nervous that the costume designers wouldn't be able to find Indy's trademark fedora, and was relieved when they did. The fact that Indy wears a now out-of-style 30's-40's era fedora in the late 1950s also highlights the fact that the production likely wanted to go with the original costume. If anything, it shows that Indy remained old fashioned.

I certainly defer to Michaelson's knowledge of the styles of the times, but I think he gives the production designers too much credit. (Then again, it could simply be that Ford said "I want that jacket" and signed off on that particular fit.)

SD

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 am

After all the "James Dean" jacket on which original was allegedly based was popular in the 50's....and wern't there a lot of Korean war vets with short jackets, letterman jackets lengths then also.....maybe he just wanted Indy in a more 'adult' length to distinguish from Mutt more (one more reason Mutt didn't help much

)

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:09 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right SD, Ford may have just said, "that fit" thank you very much.

I think the James Dean, flight jackets and letterman jackets were all geared towards a younger man. "Gramps" would not be likely to wear one. I like your point about Mutt, Hatch. I think they did want to differentiate between the two (though you'd think that hair versus the hat would be enough).

I tend to think Indy burned through a lot of jackets in his career. He might have had a local tailor and each time, gradually changed it to fit the times more (and to fit his aging self more). Somewhere along the line, he might have gone to the tailor and said, "could ya do something so it doesn't fall off my shoulders all the time...?" and "could you make the pockets bigger so they're useful?" and "by the way, a little cowhide might go a long ways to save my hide a little more."

From a movie point of view, I think you're also forced to make it a bit longer when you use cowhide as it can flare out in the back when it's shorter and the leather is stiffer.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:22 pm

Hatch wrote:Indy G, what are your feelings about your Indy 1 in cow now that you've had it a few months ? ...Bernie could have had his cow and we could have had the look we've wanted in a jacket for all these years.......

like tibor said, the stiff CS cow gives you that nice flare out in the back due to how the jacket is constructed and the stiffness of the hide. mine doesn't show as much anymore when it's on my shoulders.....again, another characteristic of the stiffer cowhide......it doesn't want to fall off your shoulders as readiliy as the shrunken lamb.

indy got more and more 'clean cut' as the movies progressed. he became more and more 'professor-ish' then 'ruff and tumble scrapper'. perhaps the off the shoulder design is too sloppy for a tenured professor so that's why they outfitted him with a jacket with clean perfect lines (no wavey zipper and no shoulder/yoke design that looks like it wasn't 'bond' tailored). just my 2 cents

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:32 pm

I certainly defer to Michaelson's knowledge of the styles of the times, but I think he gives the production designers too much credit.

I guess it slipped your mind that they came to this website for pre-production research, didn't it?

Regards! Michaelson

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:43 pm

Well played, Mr. Michaelson.

SD

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:57 pm

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:22 pm

They got everything wrong on the CS jacket. They got the color wrong. They got the leather wrong. They got the fit wrong. If they were going to go with such a light colored jacket, they needed to change the shade of the rest of his gear to look good with the jacket.

What did they do? They went with an even darker hat than every other Indiana Jones movie

. I have one word...ugly.

I have nothing against quality cowhide (and I'm not saying that the TN cowhide was not quality, because it is). “Indiana Jones” type jackets were very prevalent back in days depicted in the movie. They were usually made from horsehide. But they needed to split the cowhide thinner, for a more draped look. There were no “lived-in” leather creases in the movie jacket.

And of course the fit of the jacket was like a burlap sack. None of the other jacket nuances mattered as much as that. The collar configuration, the brass zipper, and the length of the jacket, all don’t amount to much if the thing just fit HF better. That’s what really blew the illusion that the jacket was period.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:24 pm

Let me guess....you didn't like the CS jacket, right?

Personally, I have no problems with it myself, but then that's just me and what I like.

Regards! Michaelson

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:32 pm

The CS is the only one of any of the film jackets I'd consider wearing for a real adventure. Tony built the first "real world" Indy jacket that you can buy and go out and ride on a motorcycle without worrying about different leathers, special reinforcing, etc. I think that's waht Bernie Pollack wanted for the film and that's what Tony was able to give him in a matter of hours.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:41 pm

Raider S wrote:The CS is the only one of any of the film jackets I'd consider wearing for a real adventure. Tony built the first "real world" Indy jacket that you can buy and go out and ride on a motorcycle without worrying about different leathers, special reinforcing, etc. I think that's waht Bernie Pollack wanted for the film and that's what Tony was able to give him in a matter of hours.

There are plenty of real world Indiana Jones jackets out there. None of the gripes mentioned have anything to do with how “real world” the jacket is. Also, I’m not sure that what “real world” matters for a movie. They don’t use real bullets. This is not a knock against Tony. He makes good stuff. He had nothing to do with the choices made. He just gave them what they asked for.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:43 pm

They don’t use real bullets.

They DON'T!!??

Darn you, Rundquist.....another myth shattered....

Regards! Michaelson

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:49 pm

Orl wrote:
Tibor wrote:I can understand going with cowhide, and distressing it so they were pretty well screen ready from the start. But my first impression was they had sort of made a car coat length out of a jacket. I think it was definitely too large, but intentionally so. And honestly, Harrison Ford wasn't that out of shape. I saw pics of him in a t-shirt and he could easily still wear a shorter jacket. I do think there was an intentional "progress to the character" and part of that was to think of what a guy in his late 50s was comfortable wearing in that time period.

The short jacket was definitely a product of the 30s and 40s, and pretty much had gone away once styles changed (30s) and there were no shortages of materials (40s). The only people who preserved the short jacket were for functional reasons such as those on motorcycles.
Ok! but the style Indy jackets, are short jackets. Maybe 1" more or less large. The question is Why did they make the jacket long and big for CS film?

The jacket wasn't long, or big.

Front length about the same as every other at 22.5", and back length 26.5" about the same as Tod, and LC.
Arm length was 26", also very close to the others.
Chest also about the same as all others.

I don't know what jacket you guys are seeing.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:55 pm

Rundquist wrote:
Raider S wrote:The CS is the only one of any of the film jackets I'd consider wearing for a real adventure. Tony built the first "real world" Indy jacket that you can buy and go out and ride on a motorcycle without worrying about different leathers, special reinforcing, etc. I think that's waht Bernie Pollack wanted for the film and that's what Tony was able to give him in a matter of hours.

There are plenty of real world Indiana Jones jackets out there. None of the gripes mentioned have anything to do with how “real world” the jacket is. Also, I’m not sure that what “real world” matters for a movie. They don’t use real bullets. This is not a knock against Tony. He makes good stuff. He had nothing to do with the choices made. He just gave them what they asked for.

I was making an observation, it wasn't a response to any criticism of the jacket because in terms of style I already said it wasn't my favorite. But out of all the film jackets, this is the first one built for everyday use. I'm not talking about the jackets USW or G&B currently make.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:55 pm

that's an extra 2+ inches in the back......which does wonders to a jacket's overall appearance imo.

the raiders jacket back is higher than the front. if you make it fall off your shoulders, it levels out the jacket to appear shorter whereas the CS jacket just sits there in all of its 'long' glory.

that's my take on the designs......

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:58 pm

Indiana G wrote:that's an extra 2+ inches in the back......which does wonders to a jacket's overall appearance imo.

the raiders jacket back is higher than the front. if you make it fall off your shoulders, it levels out the jacket to appear shorter whereas the CS jacket just sits there in all of its 'long' glory.

that's my take on the designs......

Yes, CS was 2+ inches longer in back than the Raiders, but not the ToD or LC jackets. Still when worn the way the Raiders acts, it appears the same length at the back

of course, Platon says the Raiders was long

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:59 pm

Raider S wrote:
Rundquist wrote:
Raider S wrote:The CS is the only one of any of the film jackets I'd consider wearing for a real adventure. Tony built the first "real world" Indy jacket that you can buy and go out and ride on a motorcycle without worrying about different leathers, special reinforcing, etc. I think that's waht Bernie Pollack wanted for the film and that's what Tony was able to give him in a matter of hours.

There are plenty of real world Indiana Jones jackets out there. None of the gripes mentioned have anything to do with how “real world” the jacket is. Also, I’m not sure that what “real world” matters for a movie. They don’t use real bullets. This is not a knock against Tony. He makes good stuff. He had nothing to do with the choices made. He just gave them what they asked for.
I was making an observation, it wasn't a response to any criticism of the jacket because in terms of style I already said it wasn't my favorite. But out of all the film jackets, this is the first one built for everyday use. I'm not talking about the jackets USW or G&B currently make.

I understand that. I'm just not sure what that has to do with the on-screen look of the jacket. Tough & ugly don't have to be synonymous.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:02 pm

For me the movie itself probably had something to do with my reaction to the jacket. I think it looks great in the still photos, however. I think a slightly darker color would make a big difference (and maybe the brown was meant to contrast the black biker jacket) and more distressing as well.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:23 pm

S, it was almost like Bernie was going for the same color pallette for Ford in CS that he used on Redford in 'Out of Africa'..........

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:30 pm

Hatch wrote:S, it was almost like Bernie was going for the same color pallette for Ford in CS that he used on Redford in 'Out of Africa'..........

Yeah, Bernie seems like a really nice guy. I'm just not a fan of his work I guess.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:47 pm

Rundquist, (or anyone) what do you think are the chances of seeing something like the TN1 in shrunken if they make an Indy 5.........Bernie has to be aware by now of how good it would look on screen......just my opinion

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:49 pm

Rundquist wrote:
I understand that. I'm just not sure what that has to do with the on-screen look of the jacket. Tough & ugly don't have to be synonymous.

HA!

Yeah, both Wolverine's Vanson, and Bruce Wayne's Belstaff are real world jackets that looked great on screen, and in the end would be better jackets for motorcycling if that is the measure of "real worldness" as quoted earlier in this thread.

(Actually, I thought CS jacket might be ok for motorcycles, but it's not; at least not on a non-cruiser. Lower back is exposed, shoulders are restricted, collar slaps you in the face, just like a Raiders' jacket).