Natural Curve

[hollywood1340]

The nylon vs. leather questions ticked something in my brain. I think it was Terry Jacka who said a perfectly made whip will have no natural curve. I may be off base here, but it does raise the question, if so, is this true?

[rjallen70]

Perhaps it is better to say that a perfectly made Terry Jacka whip will have no natural curve.
I think any leather whip forced into a coil will develop this. But when made brand new, I can see a curve being considered a flaw by Mr. Jacka. Heck DeLongis uses those whips almost exclusively and he talks about the "curve" so Jacka whips get it too...eventually.
Ron

[Indiana County Jr.]

I seem to remember someone here once stating that there is not a "natural" curve in bullwhips. I wonder though if the "curve" occurs depending on the way it was braided... and by that I mean hanging too high from the hook or any method that would put stress on the thong during the whips creation....



Crack On!
Allen

[LemonLauren]

I don't suppose anyone scientifically knows exactly why a hand-braided whip will have a natural coil direction even before it has ever been "forced" into a coil, but there are theories.

First, whipmakers braid on the front of the whip, the side facing us. This allows us to see and manipulate and pull tight every strand more easily. So the "front" of the whip is always a handful of strands ahead of the back side in terms of being braided. And whether the whipmaker pulls in the front or on the back, the front will always be pulled slightly tighter because the braiding is ahead on that side. Add to this that the front strands are constantly being manipulated by the whipmaker, and the back strands are generally left alone unless they start to gap and need to be pushed up. This braiding on the front issue happens not just with the overlay, but also with the bellies.

Second, most whips (particularly leather ones) have bolsters which are triangular pieces of leather that will be solid on one side of the whip and broken in a seam on the other side of the whip. This may be a contributing factor, though IMO it has much less to do with creating the natural curve than the braiding.

Third, and this matters more the longer the whip is, is the fact the the whip hangs in a particular direction as it is being braided. The longer the whip is, the more weight there is pulling the whip down in an arc between where the whip is fastened to the braiding anchor and the whipmaker. Also the longer the whip is, the more time the whip will spend "learning" this arc, because it will take the whipmaker longer to finish the whip.

I'm sure there are other theories as well, but these are the top three I could come up with off the top of my head. In order to eliminate #1 and #3 which I think are probably the biggest contributors to the natural coil, the whipmaker would have to be able to braid the whip from every direction at the same time, and in a place where there is no gravity. There are ways however to lessen the original natural coil direction.

The tighter a whip is braided, the more it can resist gravity and the further up each strand is being pulled tight so the braiding on the front matters less. This can lessen the natural curve. Also, a whip can probably be forced to have a "natural" curve different from its original by being coiled several times in its new direction - this can happen accidentally when a whip is braided so tightly that it's a little difficult to find the original natural curve. A shorter whip that has been very tightly braided can be an extra challenge to find the natural curve on, but most whipmakers know their whips well enough and are consistent enough that the curve (no matter how minuscule) usually happens on the same side every time, within a few degrees.

There are only two reasons I can think of for a new or used whip, leather or nylon, to absolutely not have any natural coil (assuming it was made by a human and on the planet earth of course, lol), and both of them revolve around the whip being just too floppy. Either the whipmaker never braided the whip tight enough, or the whip user beat the tar out of the whip and bent it in a million different directions, never coiled it the same way twice, and maybe even used way too much conditioner. Or a combination of these two problems. On the whip user's part, this has to be pretty extreme abuse - and usually only really happens if the user is trying to achieve that effect.

Personally, I like a whip with a nice natural direction to the coil... I think most of us do, obviously including Delongis, like RJAllen said. I think it makes the whip track better when you're cracking it. Performers who have a special whip just for precision targeting often avoid doing multiple cracks that change planes with that whip so that the natural coil stays straight and true and the transition section is better preserved. So I guess part of what I'm trying to say here in the end is that I feel like the whole discussion is sort of moot. A good whip made from any material in the hands of a whipcracker who is using it with care will have a natural coil, wherever anyone thinks the natural coil came from, and to me that's a good thing!

Lauren Wickline
http://www.midwestwhips.com

[Canuck Digger]

Lauren said it very well and my addition here is merely my personal impressions based on what I've noticed making mine.

When preparing leather cores, and I can oly presume the same applies to leather bolsters... I have notived that once it has been greased with plaiting soap and the soap has worked its way into the leather, I sort of pre-round the core in my hands so it will have a "head start" if you will when I tie it on the handle, well the core ALWAYS curves AWAY from the seam side. ALWAYS. This may be only my experience, but I doubt it. Therefore I see no reason why a bolster, which is the same shape as a core, wouldn't do the same.

The variation in tension from the front to the back as Lauren explained may also be a significant factor in developping a spine.

This is my experience with bullwhips. I see no reason to dislike the curve either; it's just a part of a whip. Sometimes I work against the curve to have a certain effect on the thong, and somethimes I work with the curve.

[rjallen70]

I agree with Lauren's assumption as to why there are curves in new and old whips...but if Terry Jacka says his come off the bench without a curve, I am inclined to believe him. There are quite a few Aussies that probably know a thing or 2 about whipmaking that has never been shared with the world.
R

[bernie47]

Over the 37 years now of making whips I have pondered over this quite a bit. As you might know I only use plaited bellies in my whips replacing the bolsters normally used so I have four plaited bellies in each whip. When I was using bolsters I experimented by tying the bolster on in different directions so if the join was on one side I would make sure that the join on the second bolster would be on the opposite side. I have done the same with plaited bellies. With each plaited belly I have marked the topside and when plaiting the next made that the bottom and so on with all the plaited bellies. The whip still develops a natural curve so I just go with the flow now. I would however like to see and handle a whip that doesn't have a natural curve.
Kind Regards
Bernie.

[louiefoxx]

Honestly I don't believe it's possible to make a "perfect" whip, it may be possible to make one with no natural curve...but not a "perfect" whip.

That's the beauty of whipmaking, you are chasing the impossible...

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

[JMObi]

Great posts by everyone here I reckon, especially Lauren's. It may be possible to make a whip without a curve but of what practical use would it be? You wouldn't be able to coil it. You would not have the benefit of the curve to help give you a reference frame whilst cracking. I go by the feel of the curve when cracking. In fact, I like the idea of a whip having a natural curve. Bernardo del Carpio told me once in an email that good whips naturally have a curve, or words to that effect I think, and I know that Australian stockmen certainly use whips that have a natural curve.

However, I do believe a whip could be made without one.

[BullWhipBorton]

There’s not really much more I can add to this. Every whip I’ve ever received made by Terry has had natural curve to it though. However since that curve tends be most pronounced within the first few feet of the whip off the handle and that’s the area he binds and reinforces to keep rigid, I can see how it wouldn’t be prevalent when the whip was first finished. As soon as you start using them though it becomes apparent pretty quickly that it's there and that is a very good thing.

[bluzharp]

I don't suppose anyone scientifically knows exactly why a hand-braided whip will have a natural coil direction even before it has ever been "forced" into a coil, but there are theories.

I'm sure there are other theories as well, but these are the top three I could come up with off the top of my head. In order to eliminate #1 and #3 which I think are probably the biggest contributors to the natural coil, the whipmaker would have to be able to braid the whip from every direction at the same time, and in a place where there is no gravity. There are ways however to lessen the original natural coil direction.


Lauren Wickline
http://www.midwestwhips.com

So are you saying it's possible that Jacka has developed an Anti Gravity unit in his shop?? I've heard rumors of him snooping around "Area 51"

[JMObi]

There you go George and Steven...the perfect McGuffin or PlotEnablingDevice for Indy 5: a special whip.

[LemonLauren]

OK guys, I just want to make sure nobody is putting words into Jacka's mouth. If anybody can come up with a direct quote from the fellow involving this topic, that'd be fine. But until then, I'm trying to only operate under the confines of Hollywood's original question, and the original post says that he isn't sure if it was even Jacka who said a perfectly made whip will have no natural direction it prefers to coil. I don't see anywhere in this thread where Jacka says his whips are perfectly braided whips, or where he says his whips have no natural coil. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page... please pipe up if you have any evidence of Mr. Jacka's opinions on this topic, but until then I don't want to make assumptions.

But back to the point at hand... Like I said in my original post, a tightly braided whip will have a very much less visible curve directly after the braiding and rolling (and before it's first coiling). Sometimes after I've finished a whip, it takes me a minute or two of gently turning the handle in my hand to see which direction the thong prefers to fall because there is no immediately obvious direction. I could imagine it being very possible for a whipmaker who braids tightly (and/or binds a portion of the whip tightly I suppose as well) to be unconcerned with spending the time to figure out the natural curve before coiling it up and simply creating a new curve. Leather has a great memory, and if the natural curve is very slight in the beginning and the whip is coiled in a different direction then for shipping purposes, I don't suppose it would probably matter much - leather learns.

Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com

[hollywood1340]

The original posting was by shagbd, and here it is:

Just in case i said anything out of context to what Terry told me, Ill just copy and paste what he said in his email:


There is no natural curve in a properly made leather whip. All the curve in added after the whip is made, usually by bending it to fit into a box for postage.
I would advise after taking the whip out of the box to hang it by the fall and wrist loop in a long curve opposite to the bend it will have from the packaging.
All the breaking in should be from using the whip. This whip is not designed to coil up and hang from a belt. If you wish to keep the advantage of the stronger transition then avoid bending the whip by hand to assume a particular shape.

[JMObi]

Well, anyway, to each his own. BullWhipBorton summed up the situation well I thought.

[Shagbd]

Oh geez i got drug into this........


Personally I am up for laurens idea...

You know Lauren, the International Space Station is getting a bit bigger.... maybe we can petition NASA to let a whipmaker go up there and try to make the "curveless" whip! )

[bluzharp]

Oh geez i got drug into this........


Personally I am up for laurens idea...

You know Lauren, the International Space Station is getting a bit bigger.... maybe we can petition NASA to let a whipmaker go up there and try to make the "curveless" whip! )

Wow, Shagbd. Hmmm... "A whip made in space.." I like the ring of that! But seriously, I've never had a problem with mine, natural curve or not. I just haven't had the opportunity to throw a whip that didn't have a slight curve to it, so I can't speak from experience as to what the difference in accuracy would be.. I'm not that discerning anyway to appreciate the difference I guess, so it doesn't really matter I suppose...

[JMObi]

Some whips I have seen, at least ones I've made myself, both stockwhip and bullwhip, have a double curve or slight s shape.

Hold the whip at full length so that it unravels vertically. You should see a big arc in the main body of the thong from the handle down to almost the 'point' (the last foot or two of braiding). This is the natural curve of the whip. Down towards the point some or maybe many whips then curve back the other way slightly, giving an overall s shape. This seems to be where the lowest strands are dropped into the thong, and apparently has negligible effect on the way the whip cracks. The natural curve in the thickest part of the thong is the main thing. I may be wrong on this but I think it might be fairly common on many whips.

[bernie47]

You don't come from Queensland by any chance do you?

[bernie47]

Sorry, couldn't help myself, not casting any aspersions on Queenslanders. I lived up there for about 10 years and it's a great place.

[JMObi]

I live in Anna territory. I've lived in a few states, they are all good. I've never been to Tasmania but hear that it is very nice. One of these days I'll check it out if I get the chance.

[VP]

So how does one crack a whip in space?

[Canuck Digger]

I suppose that depends on if you mean in orbit or if you mean outside the ship? I should think that even in space a whip would behave in a somewhat similar fashion, meaning the energy would go down the thong like it does here on Earth. But without any gravity to speak of (I'm not counting the gravity of the Sun or other nearby cellestial bodies), it would be a very different thing all together, and without air or gravity to slow it down after it cracked, the whip might want to keep on going, so that would be one heck of a follow-through! Where things become real funny is for the cracking, because what was true for Rippley in the film Alien is true for a whip: in space, there is no air, and without air there is NO sound (Kubrick got that right in 2001). So it might move, but it wouldn't make any sound. Not much fun.

I may be wrong, but this is my gut feeling about the idea of a whip in space.

Franco

[Indiana County Jr.]

Franco,

I can hear the radio message now.....


"Uh, Houston, we have a problem.... the whip is not cracking... repeat.. the whip is not cracking.... please advise..."


Crack On!
Allen

[Canuck Digger]

Franco,

I can hear the radio message now.....


"Uh, Houston, we have a problem.... the whip is not cracking... repeat.. the whip is not cracking.... please advise..."


Crack On!
Allen

Mission Control:
(Over the crackling of static) -Ah Endeavour 2, please be advised: the whip will NOT crack in the vacuum of outter space.

Turns off mic.

-THESE are the creme of the crop?!

[Indiana County Jr.]

Crack On!
Allen