For background on my hare-brained idea, refer to this thread:
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37913
Okay, so what about this:
I know there are examples of vintage HJs out there with an obvoiusly different block-shape, not to mention a different, higher quality felt. That aside, there is still the Poet/Australian model conundrum ( which I believe is an actual astrophysics term, used when describing faster than light travel, aging, and being stretched to the diameter of a human hair...). So Spielberg, Ford, Landis...whomever, go into the shop to check out the hats. They see what they like in terms of a basic shape, color, etc... "We'll take ten of those," they say, "but shaped like this, and cut like that." Dude goes in the back where he's got his repair/blocking setup and returns with THE HAT. "That's it!", they roundly agree.
The film crew is on a time table and needs their hats yesterday. As a result, some of the hats come out as Fedora's dream hat - the truck chase, etc..., While others come out like the Bantu Wind hat, Raven, and so on. This is because a.) the hats are sent out with the original block-shape, and/or b.) they're blocked wet, and in the rush, they're sent out before emerging as THE HAT that so many romanticize.
This might give a certain degree of weight to just about everyone's wingnut idea about the hat. AB's superhat: reblocked, set, cut, ribboned, etc... as the perfect hybrid of the Poet and the supposed Australian model. And the detractors who say, "What are you looking at, Steve?!? It's the same block. It always has been."
So that's why you have to "reverse engineer" a particular hat. Otherwise, you coulda just used a vintage HJ as a form and cast a block a long time ago. Would that work?
Whaddya think? Hatters? Fedora? Anybody? Hello? Is this thing on?
Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
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whipcracker
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
I'll buy it. I only have $5 though.
It makes sense to me really. In making movies things always get changed around or moved or broken or lost or whatever. It wouldn't surprise me.
It makes sense to me really. In making movies things always get changed around or moved or broken or lost or whatever. It wouldn't surprise me.
Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
Sure, anything is possible. And we are just conjecturing anyways.
My conjecture is this. D.N. grabbed a an Aussie hat with a wide brim because as she said, she could cut it down to meet her vision of "the hat" she had in her mind. She then worked with Mr. Swales to arrive at what she wanted replicated, but I doubt this replication was done that very day, or even that week. Swales probably had to get some wide brimmed hats in to use, since according to D.N. he had nothing in the fedora section that was even close to her vision. She stated what was in the shop looked like Italian fedoras, which would mean a stingy brimmed hat, with a very low crown, like 4 inches tall. This was what was in vogue during that time period, for those that know of hat styles of that era.
Supposedly Swales "bespoked" her hats. That means he custom made them, and she was insistent that HJ did not offer this hat, at the time, but that it was made, according to her specs. Now, knowing the styles of that era, this is insanely logical.
The big question to me is this. When he bespoke that first hat, did he change the blockshape? She was uncertain whether she had him drop the crown or not, then later on, she said that the crown was lowered. Now, if so, this would certainly mean that to do so, would require a reblock. No other way to do it, not in a hatter's fashion. Then, if he did it for the first hat, he would surely do it for the rest, or at least that is logical to me. Otherwise, you would have two different blockshapes, and I can't see this happening. Not with a bespoke hat!
I do think Swales used a Poet, due to the 3 inch brim, but I can't see him using what I know of as the Poet in so far as the shape of the crown. Sure it is similiar, but many blocks are similiar to the Poet block.
Time goes by and the next film comes up. I can see Swales not wanting to bespoke anymore hats, (she caught him off guard the first go around) so he used a stock Poet for Tony, which is why some of us see differences between the Raider fedora, and what followed from HJ. Back then, and even in the early 90's Swales hand cut the brims on the hats he sold us. They DID NOT have the factory dimensional cut at that time, so he had to do it by hand. Today, the HJs come with a factory dimensional cut, done at the factory that makes the HJs for them, as well as the Christies. In that regard, the dimensional cuts are not accurate to any of the film hats. Swales was not a machine, and he probably cut no two hats exactly alike.
We see what looks to be different hats in Raiders, in blockshape. Given that rabbit was used, this should come as no surprise to anyone who has owned a felt hat. They shrink, and they taper. And the porous felt used in the Raiders fedora, would bulge, which would get rid of some of the taper, brought on by heat and wear in an action film.
But IMO we do get to see pristine hats in Raiders, prior to shrinkage. One is outside the temple at the start of the film. The other I think is the squareish block of Terry's hat as well as Harrisons when they shot him right before he did his drag behind the truck scene.
We really don't get to see a good shot of the hat at the beginning of the actual filming, the one you see in the PR photo of Ford at the sub. What we do see of it, appears to be tapered. But, we don't see the back of the hat, or what is going on with it, so it is impossible to make a call on that one hat. The back crease could have been dropped really low which would cause the taper. This was the hat D.N. carried with her to France, in her luggage, and was the only hat she had been given at the time. She apparently got the rest later on.
If you look at the semi popped up crown of the Raider hat in the WOS, when Marion is on his back, you can clearly see this is not the current Poet in blockshape. Not much of a dome on that hat at all. And if you look at Terry's hat as his crown is popped up as he starts under the truck, you can clearly see there is not the same degree of taper on the front and back of the hat, as is on the current Poets. So, there is a difference in blocks, but this is not a new idea. I saw it years ago, even before I got into blockmaking and hat making. The question is, did Swales bespoke these hats in his shop, using a block he had on hand? I think so, myself, but I reckon we will never know for sure. Fedora
My conjecture is this. D.N. grabbed a an Aussie hat with a wide brim because as she said, she could cut it down to meet her vision of "the hat" she had in her mind. She then worked with Mr. Swales to arrive at what she wanted replicated, but I doubt this replication was done that very day, or even that week. Swales probably had to get some wide brimmed hats in to use, since according to D.N. he had nothing in the fedora section that was even close to her vision. She stated what was in the shop looked like Italian fedoras, which would mean a stingy brimmed hat, with a very low crown, like 4 inches tall. This was what was in vogue during that time period, for those that know of hat styles of that era.
Supposedly Swales "bespoked" her hats. That means he custom made them, and she was insistent that HJ did not offer this hat, at the time, but that it was made, according to her specs. Now, knowing the styles of that era, this is insanely logical.
The big question to me is this. When he bespoke that first hat, did he change the blockshape? She was uncertain whether she had him drop the crown or not, then later on, she said that the crown was lowered. Now, if so, this would certainly mean that to do so, would require a reblock. No other way to do it, not in a hatter's fashion. Then, if he did it for the first hat, he would surely do it for the rest, or at least that is logical to me. Otherwise, you would have two different blockshapes, and I can't see this happening. Not with a bespoke hat!
I do think Swales used a Poet, due to the 3 inch brim, but I can't see him using what I know of as the Poet in so far as the shape of the crown. Sure it is similiar, but many blocks are similiar to the Poet block.
Time goes by and the next film comes up. I can see Swales not wanting to bespoke anymore hats, (she caught him off guard the first go around) so he used a stock Poet for Tony, which is why some of us see differences between the Raider fedora, and what followed from HJ. Back then, and even in the early 90's Swales hand cut the brims on the hats he sold us. They DID NOT have the factory dimensional cut at that time, so he had to do it by hand. Today, the HJs come with a factory dimensional cut, done at the factory that makes the HJs for them, as well as the Christies. In that regard, the dimensional cuts are not accurate to any of the film hats. Swales was not a machine, and he probably cut no two hats exactly alike.
We see what looks to be different hats in Raiders, in blockshape. Given that rabbit was used, this should come as no surprise to anyone who has owned a felt hat. They shrink, and they taper. And the porous felt used in the Raiders fedora, would bulge, which would get rid of some of the taper, brought on by heat and wear in an action film.
But IMO we do get to see pristine hats in Raiders, prior to shrinkage. One is outside the temple at the start of the film. The other I think is the squareish block of Terry's hat as well as Harrisons when they shot him right before he did his drag behind the truck scene.
We really don't get to see a good shot of the hat at the beginning of the actual filming, the one you see in the PR photo of Ford at the sub. What we do see of it, appears to be tapered. But, we don't see the back of the hat, or what is going on with it, so it is impossible to make a call on that one hat. The back crease could have been dropped really low which would cause the taper. This was the hat D.N. carried with her to France, in her luggage, and was the only hat she had been given at the time. She apparently got the rest later on.
If you look at the semi popped up crown of the Raider hat in the WOS, when Marion is on his back, you can clearly see this is not the current Poet in blockshape. Not much of a dome on that hat at all. And if you look at Terry's hat as his crown is popped up as he starts under the truck, you can clearly see there is not the same degree of taper on the front and back of the hat, as is on the current Poets. So, there is a difference in blocks, but this is not a new idea. I saw it years ago, even before I got into blockmaking and hat making. The question is, did Swales bespoke these hats in his shop, using a block he had on hand? I think so, myself, but I reckon we will never know for sure. Fedora
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Michaelson
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
I see I need to round up some more DVD's for you to watch, old friend. You've had WAY to much time to think about this!
Regard! Michaelson
Regard! Michaelson
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Local Land Surveyor
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
Hey Kiltie,
I love curiosity questions and conjucture answers. Since my official felt is Rabbit, I'll put my hare-brained theory into this. Full pun intended.
I think that both Nadoolman's and Swale's stories could each have their on merits and fit together perfectly. From the post you sited, Fedora refers to the interview D.N. gives She speaks of aprocess of looking for a particular image in her mind she has for a hat. She uses the Australian model "because she could cut the brim down" to get thelook she wants. With this Australian hat, she creates her model for Herbert Johnson to bespoke the film hats. The hatters in the HJ shop work away and create the hat we know. Now, I don't know what hat it was they used or if they used a raw body. She doesn't say. She doesn't mention anyone by name at HJ. I believe I even remember it posted on here once before that someone asked if she knew Swale and she did not recall his name. However, the HJ shop did bespoke the hats she want. She also said the hat were not made for anyone else and that the hat was completely her design. She spent time with Harrison trying on many, many hats to get the look for him. Her story has her doing all the leg work for the hat.
Now, to Swales. We all have read the account he gives of how Harrison and Steven came into the shop and how he tried various hats on Harrison and he suggested the Poet. I believe the his story is true. What I don't believe is that he is refering to Raiders of the Lost Ark. I believe he is refering to The Temple of Doom. Thus, the stock Poet makes its appearance. Swale's talks of "cutting down the brim for camera angle" reasons and sizing the hat for Harrison. But pretty much his story deals around a hat he had on the shelf and it even had a name: The Poet. That story is completely different than D.N. And I don't think either are completely fibbing. Derorah speak a hat completely designed fo the part. Swale speaks of using at hat that matches the part. Costumer versus shop owner. That simple.
All this is just my theory, but, hey, it is my hare-brained idea (pun intended) I like it. 
Steven gives a lot of credit to Deborah of "really refining the costum that Harrison would indelibly be Indiana Jones the rest of his life" After hearing Fedoras stories of how Bernie operated his part of the show, Deborah's story is very valid in my book. Steven didn't enter the picture untill costuming check was done. Listen to Bernie's interview. Swale's story has its weight and I base the entire evidence on the hat itself. Hard to hide someone's fruit of their labor. The Raiders hat was Nadoolman's, The Temple hat was Swale's.
The block issue is just that. A block issue. A block defines a hat. The Poet has its block. Hank Jr's straw/felt hybrid has its block, Walker Texas Ranger hat has its block. The Raiders designed hat has its block. The folks in the HJ shop that year are the ones who know.
I have owned the Akubra Federation III, two Herbert Johnson Poets (circa 2005), two Christy's and a few AB's. The crown shapes on these just never gave the full Raiders look. You know what I mean. A full 360, top to bottom Raiders look. And I emphasize, to me. When the vintage HJ got into my hands, it took me two seconds to recognize the Raiders hat traits. I knew then, the block did matter. Not just any block would yield the traits of the Raiders hat. Thus I set out to "cast" the block. I found out very early that trying to create a poured mold would not work. Why? Good question. The felt was so soft that if you tried to pour a compound in the crown, it would distort the minute details, and in the end, unless you were paying close attention, you'd lose the true shape.
LLS
I love curiosity questions and conjucture answers. Since my official felt is Rabbit, I'll put my hare-brained theory into this. Full pun intended.
I think that both Nadoolman's and Swale's stories could each have their on merits and fit together perfectly. From the post you sited, Fedora refers to the interview D.N. gives She speaks of aprocess of looking for a particular image in her mind she has for a hat. She uses the Australian model "because she could cut the brim down" to get thelook she wants. With this Australian hat, she creates her model for Herbert Johnson to bespoke the film hats. The hatters in the HJ shop work away and create the hat we know. Now, I don't know what hat it was they used or if they used a raw body. She doesn't say. She doesn't mention anyone by name at HJ. I believe I even remember it posted on here once before that someone asked if she knew Swale and she did not recall his name. However, the HJ shop did bespoke the hats she want. She also said the hat were not made for anyone else and that the hat was completely her design. She spent time with Harrison trying on many, many hats to get the look for him. Her story has her doing all the leg work for the hat.
Now, to Swales. We all have read the account he gives of how Harrison and Steven came into the shop and how he tried various hats on Harrison and he suggested the Poet. I believe the his story is true. What I don't believe is that he is refering to Raiders of the Lost Ark. I believe he is refering to The Temple of Doom. Thus, the stock Poet makes its appearance. Swale's talks of "cutting down the brim for camera angle" reasons and sizing the hat for Harrison. But pretty much his story deals around a hat he had on the shelf and it even had a name: The Poet. That story is completely different than D.N. And I don't think either are completely fibbing. Derorah speak a hat completely designed fo the part. Swale speaks of using at hat that matches the part. Costumer versus shop owner. That simple.
All this is just my theory, but, hey, it is my hare-brained idea (pun intended)
I like it. Steven gives a lot of credit to Deborah of "really refining the costum that Harrison would indelibly be Indiana Jones the rest of his life" After hearing Fedoras stories of how Bernie operated his part of the show, Deborah's story is very valid in my book. Steven didn't enter the picture untill costuming check was done. Listen to Bernie's interview. Swale's story has its weight and I base the entire evidence on the hat itself. Hard to hide someone's fruit of their labor. The Raiders hat was Nadoolman's, The Temple hat was Swale's.The block issue is just that. A block issue. A block defines a hat. The Poet has its block. Hank Jr's straw/felt hybrid has its block, Walker Texas Ranger hat has its block. The Raiders designed hat has its block. The folks in the HJ shop that year are the ones who know.
I have owned the Akubra Federation III, two Herbert Johnson Poets (circa 2005), two Christy's and a few AB's. The crown shapes on these just never gave the full Raiders look. You know what I mean. A full 360, top to bottom Raiders look. And I emphasize, to me. When the vintage HJ got into my hands, it took me two seconds to recognize the Raiders hat traits. I knew then, the block did matter. Not just any block would yield the traits of the Raiders hat. Thus I set out to "cast" the block. I found out very early that trying to create a poured mold would not work. Why? Good question. The felt was so soft that if you tried to pour a compound in the crown, it would distort the minute details, and in the end, unless you were paying close attention, you'd lose the true shape.
LLS
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BendingOak
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
I agree that the Raiders is what D.N. is talking about and that Swale's is talking about TOD and LC. I think everything matches up that way and is very logical. The other thing that makes me think this is the bow work. Why was Raiders different than ToD and LC. Why was TOD and LC the same?????? It only makes sense that the Raiders was mad special for D.N. and that " the poet " was grabbed of the self for TOD and LC.
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jacksdad
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
very interesting guys, I love the history of the hat, one question...what is bespoking?
Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
As I understand it, a custom-made hat.
Regards, Geert
Regards, Geert
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Darth Indiana
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Re: Crackpot Raiders Block Theory
"bespoking" means custom tailoring a piece of clothing to a customer's exact specifications.jacksdad wrote:very interesting guys, I love the history of the hat, one question...what is bespoking?