Nylon vs. Leather

[cmperkins2]

I'm looking into buying a nylon whip, and I wanted to get some opinions. Feel free to leave a comment along with voting. Thanks.

[WhipDude]

The handy search function is all revealing....it will reveal many threads concerning this. Many of them will show how this ends up in a war.

[classicbullwhips]

From a good braider, a nylon whip can be just as good as a leather one. (This is kind of close to what I have been saying for a few years) I still know that some will say that leather is better but each has its own place in the whip world I feel. I have worked with all types of material when it comes to whip making, Kangaroo, Kip, even Nylon and over the last year I was seeing nylon whips getting a bad wrap, so I set out in trying to change that. My goal was to make a whip from nylon that reacts and handles as close to the high quality kangaroo whips as I could. With help for Moderator BullWhipBorton I developed the Version 2.0 Nylon Indy Bull. Review of this style of whip can be found by doing a search. If anyone has questions about the version 2.0 please feel free to ask I will be happy to answer.

Keep Crackin,

James

[Boggstandard]

From a good braider, a nylon whip can be just as good as a leather one.

With all due respect- I believe it's nonsense.

[classicbullwhips]

I am not saying one is better then the other, as I said each has its place in the whip world. What I am saying though is that from a good braider, a nylon whip can handle just as well as a leather whip, it has taken me a long time to be able to merge that gap between a good nylon whip and a great nylon whip. As said before Dan Borton reviewed one of my version 1.5 nylon Indy bulls, and even at that time he said it was one of the best nylon whips he has ever handled. With his help we both talked about things that could be improved on to help make it more like a more expensive roo hide whip, and the version 2.0 was born. So in a way it takes a good braider to merge that gap between nylon and leather. I have worked very hard and spend many hours to improve the quality of the nylon whips that I produce in order to have them react and handle more like there expensive leather counterparts. So from someone who has made whips from all types of materials, I personally feel that nylon whips are not inferior to leather ones that in it self is nonsense, each have there own place and the braider is the direct connection between the whip and it's quality.

James

[BullWhipBorton]

Cmperkins2, I would suggest using the search menu. This topic has been discussed here in great detail many times in the past. One thing's for sure, when ever this question pops up; passions tend to run high on both sides of the debate.

Nylon whips have their place and if you get one from the right whip maker, you will be very pleased with the results and the whip will perform well for you. However based on performance, in a situation where the whips are made to equal quality, (both nylon and leather whips made to the same design specifications to a high level of craftsmanship by professional master whip makers) and the handler is skilled as well, a leather whip; specifically kangaroo will out perform nylon.

Nylon has certain durability, strength and cost advantages over leather that makes it very advantageous in whip making. But at the same time, it’s a woven synthetic fiber; it flexes differently then leather, it's light weight and lacks the solid density of leather. All of those characteristics of nylon come into play and while it's up to the maker to compensate and adjust for them, in the end they still affect the way a whip acts; the sensitivity of it, the precision of how well the energy you put into it travels though the whip. It just changes the overall feel of the whip compared to leather. It’s not to say that nylon whips are bad or not worth getting, but they are different. (Although that difference can be difficult to explain in words.)

There are people that will disagree with that, some very strongly. Coincidently many of them are either the ones making and selling nylon whips, or those who don't own or have the experience using really high quality leather whips. That’s understandable though and it’s fine, however from a more impartial point of view based on many years of hands on experience with whips both leather and nylon made by just about every respected whip maker around today. Some nylon whips are better then others, but in my observations none of them have broken though that barrier. I have yet to find a nylon whip that is just as good as or better then it’s kangaroo counterpart.

Taking the cost $$$ and the conditions the whip would be used in out of the equation, the majority of whip handlers ranging from professionals to the casual hobbyist would choose a well-made leather whip over a well made nylon whip.

Dan

[rjallen70]

As a maker of nylon whips I agree with BWB. An equally made roo whip is slightly better performing whip than nylon. I would say that a well made nylon whip will out perform any leather whip in it's price range.
I do disagree in one assessment though. "the majority of whip handlers ranging from professionals to the casual hobbyist would choose a well-made leather whip over a well made nylon whip."
It should read Whip Performers not Whip Handlers. As I guarantee that being in the middle of Americas first and last great cow culture, where whips are still in use everyday, Nylon is used here in actual work 100-1.
Ron
http://loxahatcheewhips.wordpress.com/

[BullWhipBorton]

Ron is right with that correction, to a certain percentage. You still have to ask though why are working cowboys/whip handlers in his part of the country using nylon whips and preferring them to leather? Is it for their superior performance ability? No not really, it’s because they are the more affordable choice as a working tool and do the job they where made for well, under rough conditions.

Florida has always been a special place for whips and whip cracking, growing into its own whip culture from the time that the first Spaniards landed there. The Florida cow whip for example is a great whip and lends itself very well to nylon construction methods. The Southeastern United States, specifically Florida is known for it's wet, humid, often saturated working conditions, under those conditions leather doesnt do well. However in the time prior to the arrival of nylon, high quality buckskin was the preferred material for making those whips used in Florida. Buckskin, especially Indian tanned buckskin held up well under those same working conditions but today is much less readily available to whip makers. So nylon naturally became the better, cheaper, more durable and more widely available material of choice. Again though, that sort of falls under taking the cost and conditions the whip would be used in, out of the equation. Those same buckskin cow whips are still highly revered and prized today, when you can find them in there original quality.

So yes while the vast majority of Florida cowboys prefer nylon whips, (I wonder how they feel about using nylon saddles ). There are still many other working cowboy, gouchos and stockmen etc outside of Florida, who will tell you that they prefer leather working whips for what ever reasons. Price vs. performance though, it's true you would be very hard pressed to find a leather whip being made and sold today, that performs nearly as well as a quality nylon whip in that same price range.

Dan

[rjallen70]

Buckskin...like this one?


Performance is not even in the same ballpark. Not even the same sport.
I love this whip...but modern nylon whips out perform their historically accurate brothers hands down.

Rhett Kelly has an original 1970's nylon cow whip that still has the price tag. $75 1970's dollars.
Far more pricey than the buckskins would have been back then. But nylon was the "new" superior material and was more expensive then. These days even old men carry Nylon into the field, but keep there old buckskin whips in revered place in the house, where Florida's leather whips belong.

Ron
P.S. BWB Can you recommend the best way to preserve and display this whip? I was thinking open air, regular dressings and occasional light use.

[Long John Tinfoil]

For a somewhat different take.

I'm a novice at this whip thing, but I do have one nylon and one roo-hide whip. The nylon is a 4 foot snake whip make by Ron, and the roo is an 8 foot Caicedo that I picked up from "wannabe" earlier this winter.

It's only in the past week or so that the weather has been mild enough, and the ground dry enough, to get out cracking, but I've been able to spend a bit of time with each now, and the differences that I'm able to notice have a lot more to do with the size and style differences that with the materials.

One thing I have noticed is that the leather whip seems to have a "memory" of how it's been coiled, and as a result is much happier held one way than the other. Also, as noted in the earlier posts, I feel like I really need to pay attention to the leather whip - checking for abrasion, dirt, moisture, etc. - and treating it after use to keep it healthy. For the nylon, I just check that I haven't picked up any gravel and coil it away.

I'll happily defer to the experts, but I do think that it makes better sense to start out with a nylon whip than a leather one - and especially not to break the budget on some of the really high-end items you'll read about here. I look forward to the day when I'll be able to "feel" the differences between 2 otherwise identical whips, but it'll be a fair while before I get there, and in the meantime I'm learning, having fun, and confusing the neighbours...

LJ

[BullWhipBorton]

Ron, I'm guessing thats one of the late J. P. Dekle's cow whips. "Curly" was renowned for his whip acts all through the southern states, I bet that whip has some great storys behind it. At the same time though, it's not exactly the best example of a buckskin cow whip to compare with a well-made modern nylon cow whip.

Here’s one by Krist King that was made around 20 years ago, maybe not as old but it has no trouble competing with it’s nylon counterparts.


Indecently Krist also makes them out of nylon too.


Regarding care and display. Open air, a little leather dressing and occasional light use (as long as the whip is still supple) is the usually the way to go. Given that it’s buckskin, I might use lighter weight leather dressing. Something less greasy, like Jay-el. Pecards classic leather dressing or Fiebings Aussie Dressing works fine, but sometimes has a tendency to leave deerskin feeling greasy/tacky. For display purposes, a wall mounted leather whip holder to support the handle and thong (and kept out of direct sunlight) works well and looks nice.

Dan

[rjallen70]

That King buckskin does look pretty good...Does he still make those?
We have some of his nylons around here in the various tack shops (the guy must be some kind of a machine). I suspect that they are bought primarily by the tourists. As every cow town has there own go to guy(s).
Ron

[raider 57]

I own both. The leather has a slightly better feel to me and easier to work multiple cracks. I do however, use my synthetic whip all the time during the winter and in rainy weather conditions. I limit the leather whip's exposure to wet conditions. I got alot more regular practice in this past winter with my synthetic whip! That improved my skills. And my leather is still in excellent condition for summer work. So they both have their strengths.
~raider 57

[BullWhipBorton]

That King buckskin does look pretty good...Does he still make those?

I haven’t been in contact with Krist in several years so I couldn’t say. I never see them in any catalogs he supplies too though, so If he did I’d imagine they would be a special order.

Well said Raider 57.

Dan

[cmperkins2]

Price vs. performance though, it's true you would be very hard pressed to find a leather whip being made and sold today, that performs nearly as well as a quality nylon whip in that same price range.

So if I have narrowed my choices down to a $200 leather whip or a $180 nylon, since they are about the same price you would assume that the nylon is better?

[rjallen70]

Unless the leather whip was for example a Skip SanSoucie.

[jayw13th]

I own 2 nylon, 5 cow hide and 3 roo. First whip I got was a 12 foot Mexico cow whip and made me almost give up the interest. It was horrible quality. Thankfully I happened on a horse and rider shop and they had a 9 foot nylon that they were more then happy to let me test. It is a great whip and I love it to this day. It's not a name made whip but not bad for the price. I then purchased a 6 foot nylon and then found Purewhips. If this is the only whip you plan to get it is hard to say which you will enjoy more. If your lucky maybe you can find someone in your area to let you test their whips. But once you start it's hard to stop. Once my bank account levels back out I have my eye on a few more I still want.

[LemonLauren]

Price vs. performance though, it's true you would be very hard pressed to find a leather whip being made and sold today, that performs nearly as well as a quality nylon whip in that same price range.

So if I have narrowed my choices down to a $200 leather whip or a $180 nylon, since they are about the same price you would assume that the nylon is better?

I'm afraid it's not quite that easy. Within nylon whip makers, there are a wide range of makers - amateur, hobbyist, professional - all selling for about the same price range. Skip does make absolutely excellent cowhide whips that would outclass most nylon whips in that price range any day. On the other hand, there are a very few excellent nylon whipmakers who could blow a large percentage of similarly-priced cowhide whips out of the water.

I've been fooling around recently with some nylon in my spare time (such that it is), and learned a few things from working with the material, what its strengths and drawbacks are, and what makes the great nylon whips great and what makes the poor nylon whips poor.

In a nutshell, the two main issues with good versus poor nylon whips IMO are 1. weight distribution (balance) and 2. braiding tightness and evenness.

Nylon is cheap and easy to obtain, and there are lots of people who can pick some up and braid a whip that cracks, but it takes a lot of whipmaking experience and ingenuity to figure out how to distribute weight in a nylon whip so that it cracks well. Nylon is far less dense than leather, especially kangaroo leather, so the whipmaker must figure out how to add weight to the right places, whether it is with wax or lead or steel shot, or whatever. The second point, braiding tightness and evenness, is an issue that beginner and hobbyist nylon whipmakers share with their leather-braiding counterparts. Braiding tightly doesn't take strength in the traditional sense, but an understanding of how the braid is coming together and at what angle to pull each strand, and of course plenty of callouses on your hands. )

Every nylon whip I have braided so far is at least as tightly braided as my 'roo whips are, each has an obvious direction they like to coil just like my 'roo whips, and each are evenly braided. Braiding 'roo has taught me how to do this well, and it translated fairly easily into braiding nylon. However, despite much help from a few nylon braiders, I am still struggling with how to create a balance in each whip that emulates a nice 'roo whip as closely as I want it to. I think nylon has great potential, and there are people out there who have really done amazing things with making truly great nylon whips already, but I don't think we've seen all that nylon or other synthetic materials can do yet either. Think about it - humans have been perfecting leather whipmaking for centuries. How long ago did humans start working on making synthetic whips? There are still plenty of kinks to be worked out, improvements to be made, etc.

The truth is that I don't think anything will ever match the performance and character of a well-made 'roo whip, but there are a few people out there today who are making excellent nylon whips that can hold their own, perform well, and - what nylon is truly great for - not be damaged by weather and environmental conditions that would damage a leather whip. Just make sure you're getting your whip, nylon or leather, from a whipmaker who has a good reputation and who has had enough experience to know what makes a great whip and has also had enough experience to figure out how to replicate that feeling consistently in his (or her, lol) own whipmaking. Look at the difference between a jrzjoe 12 plait cowhide whip and a 4 plait Indy on a Budget by Adam Winrich - the whips are on polar opposite sides of the performance spectrum, even though they are both made from cowhide and both fall in a relatively similar price range. The difference is 100% in the whipmaker, knowing how a well-performing whip should crack, and the experience to be able to consistently create a well-performing whip.

Lauren Wickline
http://www.midwestwhips.com

[BullWhipBorton]

Lauren pretty hit the nail on the head better then I could have. no reason for me to add anything else to that.

Dan