Zippers & Jacket Bottoms

[Tyrloch]

I think I've read that certain vendors won't run the zipper all the way to the bottom of the jacket because of a durability issue. What I don't get is why that would make a difference. The one thing I don't like on some of my favorite jackets is that when it's zipped up, the bottom of the stormflap flares out because the zipped doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the jacket. Anybody have any idea why some vendors won't do this?

~Jace

[Treadwell]

That's why some versions of the jacket have press studs.

I think it's because the part of the zipper, the unseen part where it is stitched to the jacket, proceeds lower than the bottom of the metal portion. That extra bit below it helps secure the zipper and keeps it from tearing free.

[PLATON]

No that'r not right.
There is no zipper part that extends beyond the stop box.

[Kt Templar]

On one of the black and white publicity shots you can see the jacket half zipped up and the pull sticking out horizontally. It looks like one of those really simple slightly tapered small pulls like you get on jean fly zippers. It is not this type of rotating pull anyway.

[PLATON]

KT I think you meant to say that on a different thread.

[Rundquist]

In a form fitting jacket, a zipper that goes all the way to the bottom, and is zipped up, puts stress on the jacket when you sit down. It's been said before. The original Raiders jacket was an abomination of function/design. Its saving grace is that it looks cool.

[Tyrloch]

I would think that with this type of jacket being short, you'd have to have some kind of gut to put stress on the zipper just by sitting down!!

~Jace

[Rundquist]

I would think that with this type of jacket being short, you'd have to have some kind of gut to put stress on the zipper just by sitting down!!

~Jace

Ok then. Anybody that has an Indy jacket where the zipper doesn't extend to the bottom (like on a G&B), try this:

Zip it up.
Sit down.
Watch how the two two ends butterfly apart (bottom of the storm flap and the bottom of the other zipper side of the jacket).
Now pull the bottom of the stormflap over the top of the other zipper side (like you were wearing it normal while standing up). You're going to feel a lot of pressure/stress. Cheers

[Tyrloch]

That's precisely the reason I'd like the zipper to go all the way to the bottom -- so the SF doesn't flare out. My point is this: if you have a jacket where the zipper doesn't go to the bottom with a SF of 23", and one where the zipper does but the SF is only 21.5", isn the bottom of the zipper falling at the same spot on you? My feeling is if the jacket is the right length for you, then the zipper can go all the way to the bottom of the Storm Flap without being an issue...I think if you sit down with the jacket zipped, then the side vents would open up before the zipper blew out...

~Jace

[CM]

I don't like the look of the zip going all the way to the bottom. SO it's a feature that matters not a %^&$@ to me.

[Rundquist]

That's precisely the reason I'd like the zipper to go all the way to the bottom -- so the SF doesn't flare out. My point is this: if you have a jacket where the zipper doesn't go to the bottom with a SF of 23", and one where the zipper does but the SF is only 21.5", isn the bottom of the zipper falling at the same spot on you? My feeling is if the jacket is the right length for you, then the zipper can go all the way to the bottom of the Storm Flap without being an issue...I think if you sit down with the jacket zipped, then the side vents would open up before the zipper blew out...

~Jace

Side vents don't work on an Indy jacket (except the Expedition). They're little more than cosmetic. Again, I would say that your position is from an aesthetic and non-functional point of view. To illustrate the point, even the thinnest of people have a fat roll on their stomach when they sit down and are hunched over (however small it may be). The zipper not going to the bottom accounts for the extra length/extra material in the jacket when sitting down. The jacket is designed for an upright erect position.

[VP]

People don't sit down with their suit jackets buttoned, why should they sit down with their leather jackets zippered?

[Michaelson]

They do in their car, at least I do. There's no heater!

Regards! Michaelson

[Baldwyn]

People don't sit down with their suit jackets buttoned, why should they sit down with their leather jackets zippered?

I do on a motorcycle?

[Baldwyn]

Side vents don't work on an Indy jacket (except the Expedition). They're little more than cosmetic.

BTW, Rundquist, what do you mean by this? It seems the side vents alleviate some of the stress while zipped, and certainly on a Raiders jacket allows easier access to your pants pockets. What more is expected out of 'em? And why is the Expo different?

[Michaelson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Adam.... but I believe he's referring to the fact that G&B's side vents are based on the old original flight jacket practice of installing an elastic strap across the inside/back of the jacket in order to keep the vents closed when not in use...essentially making them a functional feature of a jacket, rather than a non-functioning 'stress reliever' that remains open when not in use.

Regards! Michaelson

[Baldwyn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Adam.... but I believe he's referring to the fact that G&B's side vents are based on the old original flight jacket practice of installing an elastic strap across the inside/back of the jacket in order to keep the vents closed when not in use...essentially making them a functional feature of a jacket, rather than a non-functioning 'stress reliever' that remains open when not in use.

Regards! Michaelson

Ohh... I refer to those as action pleats! I think Jace and I were both talking about the side vent slits on the bottom of the jacket, under the side strap.

I'm assuming the TN Indy I doesn't work correctly (Tony put elastic in the CS jacket, I'm assuming he doesn't in the Raiders)?

[Rundquist]

Side vents don't work on an Indy jacket (except the Expedition). They're little more than cosmetic.

BTW, Rundquist, what do you mean by this? It seems the side vents alleviate some of the stress while zipped, and certainly on a Raiders jacket allows easier access to your pants pockets. What more is expected out of 'em? And why is the Expo different?

I've owned a few Indiana Jones jackets over the years and the Expo is the only Indy jacket that I'm aware of that has a bi-swing back that works. For the pleats/bi-swing back to work, the yolk has to be high/small enough. So you have to have a Raiders jacket. The TOD and LC/CS designs are out. You also need a piece of elastic to keep the vents closed. Movement opens them, the elastic closes them. The US Navy has incorporated this design in their flight jacket since the 30's. Without the elastic, the leather relaxes and they pretty much remain open. There's not much utility, if they just remain open. On top of that, the lining needs to be a mirror image of the outside with regards to construction. The pleats need to built into the lining for it to work. Cheers

[Baldwyn]

I get your point, Adam, but I think Jace was saying that if the bottom was zipped up all the way, the side vents (the slits on the side on the bottom, not the pleat) will open and allow the jacket to not bust a zipper. This is certainly functional for that aspect, I think.

[Rundquist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Adam.... but I believe he's referring to the fact that G&B's side vents are based on the old original flight jacket practice of installing an elastic strap across the inside/back of the jacket in order to keep the vents closed when not in use...essentially making them a functional feature of a jacket, rather than a non-functioning 'stress reliever' that remains open when not in use.

Regards! Michaelson

Ohh... I refer to those as action pleats! I think Jace and I were both talking about the side vent slits on the bottom of the jacket, under the side strap.

I'm assuming the TN Indy I doesn't work correctly (Tony put elastic in the CS jacket, I'm assuming he doesn't in the Raiders)?

What you are paying for with a Tony Indy 1 is a duplicate of one of the HF jackets, Tony's expertise, and perhaps the hide if you like it. He makes a great product. The jacket is unique. However the original design is terrible. It’s not a jacket that you buy because you want a real world working Indiana Jones jacket. Don’t get me wrong though. It’s great and I dig mine. But the Expo is the top real world Indy jacket on the market in many ways.

[Rundquist]

I get your point, Adam, but I think Jace was saying that if the bottom was zipped up all the way, the side vents (the slits on the side on the bottom, not the pleat) will open and allow the jacket to not bust a zipper. This is certainly functional for that aspect, I think.

Yes, I see the discrepancy. I was talking about something else obviously. However, even with the side vents, there is stress on the zipper. I tried to illustrate that in my post above (the one about pulling the storm flap closed and feeling the pressure).

[Tyrloch]

Yup, I was referring to the vents at the bottom of the jacket -- the slit-type openings for holster access. And I think that with a decent zipper, stress would be a non-issue...

~Jace

[Hatch]

But NB G&B doesn't do "full Custom".??...you going to get TN to incorporate them into a jacket ??

[Raider S]

Neutron, you're overthinking this, IMO. I'm wearing my TN as I write this and have been nearly daily for weeks now. There's nothing that "doesn't work" about this jacket over any other jacket. The differences are probably so small it's not going to make much more than a subjective difference. I don't have pleats that open or movement that is limited. It's true changes were made on the G&B to make it overall a better jacket more in line with how other jackets work, but it's not a difference that someone will point out as you walk down the street and point at you.

As mentioned, you are paying for some different things with the Nowak. You can tell him to make the jacket as durable as possible and that will be done. Either way the jacket will still fit great; mine is the best fitting jacket I've ever owned. If it wasn't, trust me I'd be happy to tell people so considering the price. But the point of a Nowak is to get that SA jacket and that means it will have some unique features.

[Rundquist]

What you are paying for with a Tony Indy 1 is a duplicate of one of the HF jackets, Tony's expertise, and perhaps the hide if you like it. He makes a great product. The jacket is unique. However the original design is terrible. It’s not a jacket that you buy because you want a real world working Indiana Jones jacket. Don’t get me wrong though. It’s great and I dig mine. But the Expo is the top real world Indy jacket on the market in many ways.

Tell me more. Is this because it's made of goat? or design changes that make it "fit" better? or because of the construction? Can you elaborate a bit more on the "many ways". The reason I ask is I need a "fully custom" real world Indy Jacket and since the Expo is the top jacket on the market I would be interested in knowing those exact features that make it the top real world jacket so I can have them incorporated into my "fully custom" jacket. Thanks Runquist.

Goatskin has a lot to do with it. But of course, you can get a goatskin jacket made by Tony. If you want a custom jacket, Tony is the way to go without a doubt. For me, the draw of a Nowak Indy 1 is that it is the closest to a hero jacket, warts and all. Well that, and Tony's a great guy. Other people are drawn to customization. I understand. It's just that customization takes the jacket further away from it's pedigree, and that's not why I was interested in the jacket. Since you are in Southern California though, you're in prime position to take a trip to G&B. You can check out for yourself what they have to offer. You can try on a G-1 jacket and see how a bi-swing back is really supposed to work. Ask for Dave Marshall. Cheers

PS- I also did not mean to imply that Tony hasn't incorporated hidden improvements in his jacket over the shoddy construction of the original. He has.

[Hatch]

NB, great.....looking forward to your comparing drape, fit, movement differences between Shrunken lamb and goat.......

[Rundquist]

Hatch, yes I know. I was referring to learning from Runquist and was hoping any information he could provide may help when I talk to TN to design a fully custom goat ROLA. If Runquist had talked about features, like a correct bi-swing back he just mentioned above, then I could discuss incorporating these features into the jacket TN makes for me in goat.

Raider S, yes I'm afraid you're right on the overthinking. But I am old now and set in my ways and for the most part people probably just don't change that much.

Hatch, yes I am.

I'll be getting two jackets. A special order "shrunken lamb" warts and all 000/888, but picked from a scene in the movie and simply sized to my body. And then another special, custom, super durable, mods to make it better, goat ROLA.

EDIT: Runquist, would you mind explaining a bit more on the difference between how the bi-swing back works between the TN ROLA and the expedition?

Well the expo has slightly deeper pleats that are tied together by two strips of elastic beneath the liner. There is a corresponding liner configuration. The way that the side vents are sewn to the jacket body is also done better/stronger. The stitching on an expo in many spots is also further away from the edge. Years down the line, if you were not to treat the leather, this would help keep the jacket together. The thread on the expo is heavier gage. The stitch per inch count is also less on an expo. Now you might think that you want more stitches, but the opposite is true. Years down the line, if the leather started to give, this would help keep the jacket together. You never want the thread pulling through the leather. Their stitch count is carefully calculated.

Now these are things that I appreciate. But this does not mean that Tony’s jackets are not super solid. They are. Some of the things that I’ve mentioned about the TN Indy 1 can be seen as design flaws or “Indiana Jones” strengths, depending on your point of view. Tony copied a jacket. That’s what most of us wanted (the expo is a copy as well, just of another jacket). Again, I really love my TN Indy 1 and wouldn’t change a thing (although his goatskin creations sure look good). But if I had to choose 1 Indy jacket based on design & construction soundness it’s the expo.