AB Ribbon

[Indycrazy5187]

Hopefully I'm not alone here. Maybe I'm just over-thinking, but the color of the ribbon on the AB's and ABHJ's is so unique. Is it black? Is it navy black? Is it chocolate brown? I don't know. I wish I knew where Mark and Steve got it. From just looking at the ribbon, it looks black. I've been studying the ribbon on my ABHJ and my brothers AB. I think the most interesting part of the hat is the ribbon because wherever I go (hat shops, online, etc.) that color ribbon is nowhere to be found. I've looked at standard black hat ribbon and compared it to the hats and it's not the same. Like I said, maybe I'm over-thinking it. Sound off guys and gals.

[Indiana G]

it's a custom job, more like midnight brown.......extremely dark brown. this is not a standard offering and must be custom manufactured. the minimum order for this stuff is like 500 yards or something ridiculous like that. it would be close to or even over $1K to get some of your own from offerey (grosgrain ribbon company).

it was more plentiful in the old days when fedora's were as common as baseball caps.

[Mulceber]

it's a custom job, more like midnight brown.......extremely dark brown. this is not a standard offering and must be custom manufactured. the minimum order for this stuff is like 500 yards or something ridiculous like that. it would be close to or even over $1K to get some of your own from offerey (grosgrain ribbon company).

it was more plentiful in the old days when fedora's were as common as baseball caps.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's a custom order - Marc managed to find the supplier of the original ribbon, and it just so happened that they make a very unique ribbon. Doesn't make it custom. -M

[DR Ulloa]

I believe, Mulceber, that it is a standard offering, like you said. I know that it took Marc a couple months to find the #### thing, but he did find it and it is not custom, just very specific and therefore difficult to find.

Dave

[Indiana G]

from what i read, marc found vintage dead stock HJ ribbon that is not made anymore and they bought the lot of it. if i misread, please let me know.

i guess i misinterpreted the question. AB ribbon is vintage stock no? i believe both marc and fedora bought thousands of yards of the stuff.

what i was eluding to is if someone wanted to match the raiders ribbon on their hat(s).......it would be a custom job to order it.

sorry for the confusion and please let me know if i am wrong about AB's ribbon.

[Treadwell]

Met a fellow COWer DR Ulloa at MegaCon and we compared my AB with his Penman. We couldn't detect a difference in the ribbon. He posted about it in the Penman thread and will probably post a pic he took.

[DR Ulloa]

Yes, I have the pic but I my computer has been kinda . I have to find another computer to do it from. Hopefully tomorrow I can post it for you guys.

Indiana G, it is my understanding that though this is a intage ribbon, there is still someone selling it. It may be only one company making this ribbon anymore, which is why Steve, Marc, and John are the only guys that have this stuff.

Dave

[gwyddion]

AFAIK Marc said in the Henry thread that the factory that makes the Henry for them have the correct ribbon and Marc and Steve are buying the ribbon from them nowadays.

I argee the ribbon is not black, but a very dark brown. It shows up black in most lighting, but in certain types of lighting it is clearly brown.

Regards, Geert

[Fedora]

Guys, this ribbon is made by only one place in the entire world. Marc just got very lucky, and almost found it by accident, by a passing remark with some hatter in Europe. I don't even know who makes it! I told Marc, I would just order mine from him and no need to tell me as he knows I have a very BIG MOUTH. I have never been hesitant about telling everyone my sources, and he knows it! This was mainly due to the trouble I had early on in sourcing good materials. There are a few sources for many things needed in hatmaking, the trouble is, no hatter would share with me. That's just the way the business is. And it made me mad, and I have got even with those guys by telling most whom I use.(much to the chagrin of my feltmaker who does not want indivduals ordering bodies who are not real hatters) So, no one would have ever known where I get my felt from, if not for me sharing it. The old hatters just won't share. Of course the reason was for competition reasons, and over time, I have moved a little in that direction as well, since I now sell hats. But, I have shared with a couple of our new hatters the needed info, and so has Marc. (why can't I ever write short posts???? I reckon it is the big mouth syndrome)

Back to the ribbon. Before finding the source, Marc and I looked into having our ribbon custom made here in the States by the only manufacturer left. We could have got an exact color match to the super dark brown we currently use, but heck, it would be a special run, and the minimum was 7500 yards, for them to do it. Or around 9000 bucks at the time. Neither of us could afford to lay out that kind of money just for ribbon at that time. The other route for new hatters is to buy a Sudan brown that is available, and then have it custom dyed by someone who specializes in dyeing. I have never looked for someone to do this, but I know from another hatter, someone does.

The Raiders ribbon is indeed unique today in the color, although many years ago, it was available from any ribbon maker. With the demise of hats, the colors have been culled down to "what sells" for economic reasons.

Generally ribbon runs less than a buck a yard, but this stuff we use cost as much as some rabbit bodies that other hatters use. And, in the quality department, it sure ain't worth what we pay. I can buy a rabbit body from another country that was 5 bucks, the last time I checked, but, you really do get what you pay for in bodies. And I would never use one of these in an AB hat. In hat bodies, you really do get what you pay for. But not so for ribbon. I love the color of our ribbon, but I detest the quality. If I had my choice, I would be using pure rayon, as that is the highest quality ribbon one can buy, and that sort of ribbon is also a special run as well. But since our ribbon comes from the original Raider ribbon manufacturer, I HAVE to use it. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Now, don't get me wrong, I am so grateful Marc found the source(no web site) because I was running out of the vintage dark brown I once used.

No matter how good an Indy fedora a hatter an make, if you don't have the right ribbon, the hat will always be inaccurate. I reckon it is our ace in the hole, for now. Fedora
Fedora

[jasonalun]

I'm just curious, Fedora, not questioning anyone's word or anything, but how do you guys KNOW that your ribbon is THE Raiders ribbon? It seems to me, reading all that I have on the forum archives, that no one to this day can say with 100% certainty exactly where the hat's felt came from, where the block that was used resides, or even exactly how it was made (slightly tweaked factory hat, or bespoke hat)! So how is it that we know exactly who made the ribbon? Again, not questioning anyone's veracity, just puzzled how that one thing could be known when just about everything else about the hat seems still shrouded in so much mystery...

[Indiana G]

steve, thanks for clarifying. i was in error in thinking that your current stock is vintage deadstock........my bad.

i totally agree that rayon is a better material for the ribbon. i've worked with polyester and it just doesn't 'give' nicely when doing the bow work. my indy brown is 50% cotton and 50% rayon.......extremely nice stuff to work with.

but like you said, our sources are our secrets ........plus i made a promise that i do not intend on breaking.

(just like the promises i made to you many moons ago.....they are still in the vault my friend)

[Marc]

how do you guys KNOW that your ribbon is THE Raiders ribbon?

Lemme answer this one.

When the manufacturer send a sample to me, he didn't know which width I was looking for. All he had hear from another supplier, is that I was DESPERATELY trying to source some super dark brown ribbon. So he send some 25mm ribbon to me with a note that he had heard about my search and if this would please me. When I opened the envelope with the sample, it looked plain black to me (just as the Raiders ribbon in certain scenes), but when compared directly to black ribbon, one could see that it's dark brown. It kinda changed color with different light conditions - something I had always assumed was due to the various hats used in Raiders, rather then this particular ribbon that does it by itself. So, while my jaw was still on the floor, I called the guy up to ask if they have it in 38mm as well. Answer: yes, how much would you like?! I told him that I'd get back to him, and then I rang up Steve 7:00am to scream into the phone that I had found the maker of the original Raiders ribbon. Now, if you know Steve, you'll know that he's not quite himself, before he had his coffee, but THIS made him awake within a fraqution of a second

So, we both ordered two rolls and the waiting began. It looked SPOT ON! Both compared to what we saw on screen as well as what we saw on vintage HJs. To us there was no question that this is IT.

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc

[DR Ulloa]

I always get excited when I read about how you guys landed the Crystal Skull gig. Steve and Marc's word is good enough for me, but if Bernie says that its the same ribbon...its the same ribbon!

Dave

[DanielJones]

Experimental Archaeology always comes up with some fantastic results when you research, network & dig deep enough. Love to hear sories like these. Good job guys.

Cheers!

Dan

[jasonalun]

Thanks for the story, Marc! That was kind of what I figured. We believe it to be the exact color, but we don't know with 100% certainty that it's the same exact ribbon from the same exact factory that the Raiders hat ribbon came from. Fedora just said that this color used to be available from every manufacturer when hats were more popular, which would mean that there's no way we can be sure that the ribbon on the Raiders hat wasn't made by some other manufacturer that has since stopped making that color, and that the source you guys get yours from is simply the only one left making that color. I'm not trying to diminish the uniqueness of your ribbon, I'm just trying to clarify what we truly know about it. It's great that you guys were able to unearth the correct color, and make it available to us on your hats. It definitely adds that special "look" the hat!

[BendingOak]

I think you need to re-read Marc's post. It's a little more than just the color.

[jasonalun]

I read it. Just because the measurement was the same doesn't necessarily prove it was made by the same company, unless someone knows for a fact that no company other than X made a ribbon of that color in that size.

[BendingOak]

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc

[BendingOak]

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc

have you ever seen the ribbon in question? I would put my money on Bernie.

[jnicktem]

I don't know much about this... but here is my guess.

When comparing the AB ribbon to the ribbon on the Hero hat, if everything is exactly the same, there is a very good chance the same company made both ribbons. Also, adding into the equation the very dark, almost black, brown color... that has to be very difficult to match EXACTLY, and have the same size, texture, etc...

Besides, we have heard from COW's hat experts on this matter, if they are saying it is the very same ribbon made from the same company... I'll believe 'em.

[jasonalun]

Oak, I'm not questioning Bernie's vision, or anyone else's for that matter. Fedora said that almost every company used to carry that color, so we know that back in the day when the hero hat was made, that wasn't a rare color like it is now. Next, Marc said Bernie compared it to the hero hat he had, and the color and width matched exactly. That means they have a ribbon that looks exactly like the one on the hero hat. No debate here. But I simply point out that if, as Fedora said, just about every company carried this color, then it isn't too hard to believe that a lot of them had that color in the same width as the hero hat as well (unless Fedora or Marc confirm otherwise - they haven't so far). If that is true, then it would be therefore possible that one of those many companies could possibly have been the supplier for the ribbon on the hero hat. I'm not saying Marc and Steve's ribbon isn't the one, I was just clarifying that Marc and Steve (and Bernie) confirm it is the exact same kind of ribbon, but we just can't know for sure if theirs is made by the exact same company as the original was. That's all I'm saying.

[DR Ulloa]

At the time Raiders was made, the hatting business was pretty much what it is now. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the one supplier of this ribbon was the only supplier of that ribbon at the time Raiders was made. Did many companies carry this ribbon? Yes. At the time of Raiders? No, probably not.

Dave

[gwyddion]

Also, Bernie is a costume designer: He will look at more than just the colour and the size. I would be surprised if he didn't look at tings as weave, how the edge was finished and some other stuff I just don't know about. Costume designers are very nitpicky and know their fabrics, so if Bernie said it's the same chances are extremely slim that it isn't.

Regards, Geert

[jasonalun]

At the time Raiders was made, the hatting business was pretty much what it is now.

If Fedora can confirm that, I'll buy it, but I distinctly remember him or Marc saying that the hatting business has dramatically changed in the last 10 or fifteen years, as far as suppliers disappearing and certain things being no longer as available as they used to be, even 20 years ago. The hero hat was made some 30 years ago. I guess Steve will have to clarify what his "many years" meant. To me, thirty years is "many years."

[Fedora]

Did many companies carry this ribbon? Yes. At the time of Raiders? No, probably not.

I concur on that one. Hats were dead at the time of Raiders, and the numerous old ribbon makers had went belly up, leaving only a few. There is only one left here in the USA, whereas there used to be many more. I don't know how many are left in Europe, but I do know they are few and far between today. I cannot say absolutely that the same company that makes our ribbon is the same one that made it back when Raiders was filmed, but I feel pretty certain of it, given the demise of the ribbon industry way before Raiders was filmed. And given its color. You can't find this color today, except from this very old company that currently makes it. Just not that much demand for this color of brown today, in general. This same company also has a really good selection of colors, unlike the USA ribbon maker, who dropped most of the pastels that used to be popular way back. But to be honest, I do think the ribbon maker who we use had done the same thing Schiff did here in the States. They decreased the quality of their ribbons to cut costs. Vintage Schiff ribbon is much nicer than modern Schiff, and the only pattern Schiff sells today is the 705 pattern, whereas the real hatband grade ribbon was a 7005 pattern. I expect the same to have occurred with the folks we use, although they seemed to have kept a more diverse color selection. So, I am sure the color we use is the exact same, but am not sure the pattern or weave is the same. Not saying that it isn't but that I just don't personally know. Bernie said it looked the same, so all I can do is to take his word for it. But to me, the Raiders ribbon looks thicker, but it is hard to tell for sure unless you held it in hand. If it was thicker, this would fit in with what has happened with the industry in trying to cut costs. Fedora

[jasonalun]

Thanks for the info, Steve - fascinating as always! I stand corrected on the hat industry thing. I hope I don't come off to anyone as trying to devalue your ribbon or anything - absolutely not. I'm just a real anal-retentive detective type who's obsessed with "just the facts, ma'am." But it looks like you have the same tiny smidgen of doubt that I have about it being the same exact ribbon. That's all I was trying to express. Very likely to be, but just can't be 100%, absolutely, beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt sure.

[Mulceber]

Also, another thing worth mentioning in favor of this ribbon is the way the color ages. The Raiders hat was put through some nasty abuse during filming, but its ribbon always retains its perfect black-brown color. In every Indy hat I've ever owned EXCEPT the hats made using Marc's ribbon, over time, the color of the ribbon fades to PURPLE. I've got two hats that have Marc's ribbon on them, and they've both retained that black-brown color. I'm satisfied. For my money, it's the one.

BTW, do we know if LLS is going to be using the original ribbon on his hats? -M