Raider's Collar

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:08 am

Ive seen post after post and thread after thread on Raider's specs and pics and Holt's SA jacket, Tony Nowak's Indy I, ... but i am still stumped on the Raider's collar..
It looks Pointy and very similar to the Last Crusade's but not as big..
am i the only one?

http://www.filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

pics 3, 6, and 7 show the collar looking like crusade

Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:14 pm

yes there were several dofferent jackets used in raiders. I mean they were all the same but in a way they were not.

some had smaller/bigger pocets.

some had smaller/bigger collar

and so on and so on...

the crusade collar is even bigger then the raiders with the bigger collar..

nothing new...

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:56 pm

i was wondering when you were gonna post Holt!

Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:00 pm

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:07 pm

the LC collar does look big. It reminds me some of holt and IndyG's huge 'special' collars.

How much bigger than the Raiders collar would you say it is? 1/2"? and is it as it looks, the same all around?

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:08 pm

prob 1/2 inch it seems

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:25 pm

There are many differences in the LC collar to the Raider collar. For one thing they're shaped differently from one another. They're also configured differently. They attach to the jacket in different ways by the collar stand. The Crystal Skull jacket collar is more related to the LC collar than the Raiders is. The major difference though is that the CS collar will lay flat, whereas the LC collar will not (because of how it's constructed). The LC collar is already larger and then it stands up, making the collar appear even larger. It was the new Indiana Jones line by Ralph Furley of “Three’s Company”. $\:D/$

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:39 pm

i like that Ralph Furley analogy

We see collars constructed differently in LC too. There is one with the collar ending half way over he storm flap and and another ending before the storm flap.

Then there is the kurtz jacket that although looks well used I don't think we see in LC at all.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:35 pm

I know I'll catch untold amounts of heck for this, but I threw my Indy I jacket on today and it naturally did the fold down at the tips, raised in the back look. Not as good as Holt's jacket, but it did recreate it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:37 pm

Unless we see the back, i don't think we can identify the Bantu wind jacket as being used anywhere else.

Post by **Holt** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:31 pm

hawaii , imans house jacket: large, wide neck opening,pointy tips on collar with squared off stormflap corner.

raven bar, temple jacket : pointy tip and round tip on collar with rounded of stormflap.

the idol grab / temple jacket is NOT the bantu wind jacket at all....far from it.

Post by **Holt** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:58 pm

well the bantu wind jacket had smaller pockets. and they were higher placed on the jacket too. the straps anchoring are hidden under the backpanel. and the collar is very,very pointy and it has the low yolk. the raven bar jacket is way different from that....

the raven bar jacket is the temple/idol grab jacket in my opinion. at least the one were he sits down and looks at the idol. the running from the boulder might be another.....

you see the collar is the big tell IMO. the pointy and round tips are mistakes when the jacket were made in a hurry from the jacket maker(peter) so when I see the exact same collar in the raven bar and when he sits down in front of the idol, I think to my self, yep! that IS the same jacket. I mean they were made in a hurry and what is the odds of making the exact same mistake on the collar only on a different jacket? nada. when I talked to Peter he told me that they actually didnt have so much time with the jackets. the production needed them fast and the details were overlooked when the jackets were made.thats why see different strap length, different pockets, collar, etc,etc....they mainly focused on the size so it would look right on ford and on screen.

and just to ad this, the cuffs on the raven bar jacket seem to be wider then all other jacket seen on film except the idol grab scene. again same jacket IMO

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:08 am

possible

I dont know really.. Im just a guesser......

but it could be.....

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:19 am

If this is correct, then then what Platon has labeled as the temple jacket is also the Bantu wind jacket. If the guy in Crismans link is correct in labeling it as the "main hero" jacket, then the hawaii jacket is not this jacket.

The Temple jacket appears in the temple, raver bar and other scenes. I believe the Temple jacket is the "main" hero jacket.
The Hawaii, in hawaii, Imam's house and other scenes.

The Bantu jacket is a third jacket, which I think appears in the promotion pics and the Bantu boarding scene.

In my opinion the Bantu jacket was the 1st prototype which Nadoolman distressed with HF's knife and steel brush. It is logical to assume that provided that the Bantu scene was the first to be filmed and the promotion pics were shot early in the production.

If that is true, then later, for reasons not known to me, they chose to film the rest of the movie with the temple jacket. Maybe it was more comfortable for Ford as it appears to be roomier than the Bantu jacket.

Perfect example of the temple jacket here

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:04 am

the temple jacket from above is also the wings jacke were he says ''marion''

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:24 am

And notice how in both shots there is still the zipper sweep as seen in the Hawaii jacket of TN. The quirks of the pattern don't seem too different from one to another, apart from the collar stand and pockets, which would have more to do with who's operating the sewing machine and not so much on the off-kilterness of the pattern.

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:30 am

"It was the new Indiana Jones line by Ralph Furley of “Three’s Company”. "

Raiders was made in "Three's company" hey day, so there is probably some connection. (albeit only promoted on the outer fringes of academia with the "crystal skull is from outer space" experts.)

I liked that show and it taught my wife English.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:05 am

the bantu wind jacket is ONLY in the boarding scene.

all other jackets are NOT the bantu wind jacket.

the jacket were he has the blood on his lips and says ''marion'' is the idol grab/ temple jacket.

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:29 am

we should name the jackets, have a set name for each jacket.. example:
Temple jacket

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:55 pm

neutronbomb wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:the bantu wind jacket is ONLY in the boarding scene.

all other jackets are NOT the bantu wind jacket.

the jacket were he has the blood on his lips and says ''marion'' is the idol grab/ temple jacket.
Mr. Holt, do you feel the crease in the right collar of the Bantu Wind jacket looking similar to the crease in the right collar of the "temple" jacket is a simple coincidence?

Well, it looks that way

I haven't seen any of the other peculiarities of the Bantu Wind jacket in any of the other scenes...

Regards, Geert

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:09 pm

coincidence.

actually I dont think they look similiar at all. the bantu wind jacket looks to have a more chunky collar lapel/tip with a crease in it, while the temple/raven bar has a more thinner lapel with a slight crease.

it is NOT the same jacket my friend....

all of these jackets are the bantu jacket.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:10 pm

PLATON wrote: ........

In my opinion the Bantu jacket was the 1st prototype which Nadoolman distressed with HF's knife and steel brush. It is logical to assume that provided that the Bantu scene was the first to be filmed and the promotion pics were shot early in the production.

If that is true, then later, for reasons not known to me, they chose to film the rest of the movie with the temple jacket. Maybe it was more comfortable for Ford as it appears to be roomier than the Bantu jacket.

If this is the case, could it be the Bantu Wind jacket was the only one with a lower yoke, and having received 10 more jackets with a high yoke they decided to stop using the low yoke one for better continuity?
Even though those 10 had differences from each other that they noticed.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:20 pm

well the bantu had the low yolk and was the ONLY one shown on screen, but it is not the only one with the low yolk. there must have been more production jackets of that type... and the jacket Sgt.hack has is a good source to speculate further on that...

the jacket sgt hack has is a wested raiders jacket from the production with the low yolk. you cant see the back, but you can see the back on the blue label jacket from us wings, which are 100% copied of springs from that production jacket sgt hack has..

so that prooves that the prod.jacket sgt.hack has is another with the low yolk.... AND the straps are hdden under the backpanel, just like on the bantu wind jacket.

Sgt hack,raiders production jacket with the back of us wings blue label ''raiders prod jacket''

just look at all the details. look at the backpanel compared to the bantu wind jacket. look at the pointy collar tips. the hidden straps with d rings.

dont know why they ordered jackets with higher yolk.. maby they just decided that it looked better....

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:43 pm

sure no prob my friend

I can believe that they detsroyed most of the ''bantu vind'' style jackets... and just before they destroyed all of them Sgt hack was lucky and got one of them...

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:44 pm

Lower yoke:

- Mac

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:48 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:sure no prob my friend

I can believe that they detsroyed most of the ''bantu vind'' style jackets... and just before they destroyed all of them Sgt hack was lucky and got one of them...

Well, Cooper got the jacket, and passed it to Sgt Hack, and this is all anecdotal evidence, not proven.

Otherwise, we'd have to look at that jacket and consider the shrunken lamb debate

Heck, it definitely didn't even go through the rock tumbler treatment Peter described.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:52 pm

yes baldwyn, thats the true, I forgot about terry's jacket.. Terry has a jacket with the low yolk and without pleats, smaller pockets.blah,blah, blah... it almost looks like the temple of doom jacket to me... but what do I know...... Im just a guesser...

I think that this was the wilson jacket with the taken of cuffs and knits....

wasnt it? not sure.. Todd would know...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:well the bantu had the low yolk and was the ONLY one shown on screen, but it is not the only one with the low yolk. there must have been more production jackets of that type... and the jacket Sgt.hack has is a good source to speculate further on that...

the jacket sgt hack has is a wested raiders jacket from the production with the low yolk. you cant see the back, but you can see the back on the blue label jacket from us wings, which are 100% copied of springs from that production jacket sgt hack has..

so that prooves that the prod.jacket sgt.hack has is another with the low yolk.... AND the straps are hdden under the backpanel, just like on the bantu wind jacket.

Sgt hack,raiders production jacket with the back of us wings blue label ''raiders prod jacket''

just look at all the details. look at the backpanel compared to the bantu wind jacket. look at the pointy collar tips. the hidden straps with d rings.

dont know why they ordered jackets with higher yolk.. maby they just decided that it looked better....

What we don't know about that jacket Sgt Hack has is it's maker. We are assuming it is a Leather Concessionaires, but it may not be. Since it went to Cooper it may have been a Cooper submission.
As I recall from photos of the front, the Blue label jacket had some differences in it from the one that was supposed to be copied, and the back may as well. We don't know since we don't see the back of the original.
One difference I see with it and the Bantu Wind is with the side straps. I can't see the front anchor point of the straps on the Bantu wind being so close to the pocket, but it may just be the photo.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:03 pm

RCS: well to me....the Sgt jacket looks like a OLD vintage Leather concess jacket. it screams wested to me....but thats just me...

of course I cant be sure that it is wested who is the maker... it could have been made in neverland by Peter Pan for what I know...

but to give you the truth, Im not all that interrested in the story behind this jacket....

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:05 pm

I guess Sgt Hack.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:09 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:well the bantu had the low yolk and was the ONLY one shown on screen, but it is not the only one with the low yolk. there must have been more production jackets of that type... and the jacket Sgt.hack has is a good source to speculate further on that...

the jacket sgt hack has is a wested raiders jacket from the production with the low yolk. you cant see the back, but you can see the back on the blue label jacket from us wings, which are 100% copied of springs from that production jacket sgt hack has..

so that prooves that the prod.jacket sgt.hack has is another with the low yolk.... AND the straps are hdden under the backpanel, just like on the bantu wind jacket.

Sgt hack,raiders production jacket with the back of us wings blue label ''raiders prod jacket''

just look at all the details. look at the backpanel compared to the bantu wind jacket. look at the pointy collar tips. the hidden straps with d rings.

dont know why they ordered jackets with higher yolk.. maby they just decided that it looked better....

WOW that means the older westeds WERE accurate??

This is a 2004 wested jacket IDENTICAL to the SGT hack production jacket:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... r013-1.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear015.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear021.jpg

That really indicates the older westeds are much more accurate than the current? And all the change wasn't needed? The back doesn't look the same because the blue label has a more standard USW back.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:10 pm

Mac wrote:

Lower yoke:

- Mac

That last photo is the cow hide Wilson's jacket used in the drag scene, and I think only used for that.The back of it probably doesn't appear in the movie.
I believe it is based on the original Western costumes mock up, and this may indicate the original mock up had a low yoke.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:16 pm

another thing that catch my eye is the raiders jacket worn in LC by Vic Armstrong.

the collar and details look almost spot on to the Hawaii jacket.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:17 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:
WOW that means the older westeds WERE accurate??

....

That really indicates the older westeds are much more accurate than the current? And all the change wasn't needed? The back doesn't look the same because the blue label has a more standard USW back.

No, that means the older Westeds may have been more accurate to the Bantu Wind jackets. But all the changes were needed to get us jacket that looked more like the jacket we know and love.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:19 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:........

That really indicates the older westeds are much more accurate than the current? And all the change wasn't needed? The back doesn't look the same because the blue label has a more standard USW back.

I don't think we'll ever know, unless Sgt Hack knows some more detail of the jacket he has and it's origins.
It was said that what Sgt Hack has was an unused stunt jacket taken at the end of the movie. We don't know any more, we don't know who made it. It's leather is very smooth and doesn't match even leather Peter describes as the original tanning process for the jackets.
Could it mean that early Leather Concessionaire/Wested fan offerings were only copies of a similar jacket?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:21 pm

I don't think this is a stunt jacket from raiders. looks like wested raiders not a LC raiders.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:22 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:
That really indicates the older westeds are much more accurate than the current? And all the change wasn't needed? The back doesn't look the same because the blue label has a more standard USW back.

depends..... it all comes down to which raiders jacket you want to have. if you want old style to resemble the bantu jacket then yes it was more accurate...

but we all know that the most popular raiders jacket is either the raven bar or the hawaii look... and the current pattern is MUCH more SA then their older pattern for that look...

Edit: I just saw Baldwyns post.. never mind...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:22 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:RCS: well to me....the Sgt jacket looks like a OLD vintage Leather concess jacket. it screams wested to me....but thats just me...

of course I cant be sure that it is wested who is the maker... it could have been made in neverland by Peter Pan for what I know...

but to give you the truth, Im not all that interrested in the story behind this jacket....

right, and if it is an early leather Concessionaires/Wested it would be an early fan jacket.
I wonder what label it has if any?

I agree it's more of an anomaly than anything.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:23 pm

RCSignals wrote:That last photo is the cow hide Wilson's jacket used in the drag scene, and I think only used for that.The back of it probably doesn't appear in the movie.
I believe it is based on the original Western costumes mock up, and this may indicate the original mock up had a low yoke.

This jacket may be a Wilson's cow hide, but it appears to have action pleats:

- Mac

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:25 pm

neutronbomb wrote:"another thing that catch my eye is the raiders jacket worn in LC by Vic Armstrong.

the collar and details look almost spot on to the Hawaii jacket."

Does that have a low yoke. Because by going off of _'s write up the 3 stunt jackets were made identical to the prototype. If the prototype is the Bantu wind jacket, then it follows, if _'s write up is correct that the 3 "stunt" jackets were made identical to the prototype, then the three "stunt" jackets would also have low yokes.

RCSignals, in _'s write up it states the wilson jacket was based of the "marginal" jacket.

I dont know.. but it looks to have a higher yolk in the 3rd picture

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:30 pm

neutronbomb wrote:
..... Because by going off of _'s write up the 3 stunt jackets were made identical to the prototype. .........

It was requested that the last order jackets match teh prototype, but isn't clear that they actually did.

Why did the plan fall by the wayside? Was it because the three did not match the prototype? or because mostly non prototype jackets had already been used that did not match it and these last order jackets?
We mostly see high yoke jackets in the movie.

Maybe _ can elaborate.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:31 pm

Mac wrote:
RCSignals wrote:That last photo is the cow hide Wilson's jacket used in the drag scene, and I think only used for that.The back of it probably doesn't appear in the movie.
I believe it is based on the original Western costumes mock up, and this may indicate the original mock up had a low yoke.
This jacket may be a Wilson's cow hide, but it appears to have action pleats:

- Mac

I see it too !

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:32 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:
That really indicates the older westeds are much more accurate than the current? And all the change wasn't needed? The back doesn't look the same because the blue label has a more standard USW back.

depends..... it all comes down to which raiders jacket you want to have. if you want old style to resemble the bantu jacket then yes it was more accurate...

but we all know that the most popular raiders jacket is either the raven bar or the hawaii look... and the current pattern is MUCH more SA then their older pattern for that look...

Edit: I just saw Baldwyns post.. never mind...

The nice thing is that the old Westeds we rejected for inaccuracies do have their place in our hobby at last!

"Dude, that doesn't look like Indiana Jones' jacket."

"It's practically identical to the one he was wearing when he boarded the Bantu Wind!"

"Oh you mean, the one he ditched and later replaced with a Tony Nowak?"

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:33 pm

Mac wrote:
RCSignals wrote:That last photo is the cow hide Wilson's jacket used in the drag scene, and I think only used for that.The back of it probably doesn't appear in the movie.
I believe it is based on the original Western costumes mock up, and this may indicate the original mock up had a low yoke.
This jacket may be a Wilson's cow hide, but it appears to have action pleats:

- Mac

It looks like it but if you read the write up I think you'll find they are 'mock' pleats, as in flat but sewn to look like pleats. (again _ will have to elaborate, and I think he explained these in another post here a while back)

"During shooting, a Wilson’s jacket was used to outfit Terry Leonard for the truck dragging stunt. The Wilson’s jackets were heavier and had been made from “pre-distressed” leather. An added benefit to the Wilson jacket design for this scene was that there was no detailing to the back, i.e. no action pleat. Because of this it was thought that the jacket would fare better with Leonard being dragged on his back while under the truck. Also, because the Wilson jackets were fitted to Tom Selleck they were a bit trimmer than the Leather Concessionaires jackets and provided a tighter fit to hold body padding and armor in place for Leonard’s extended time under the truck."

The photo you use is even labeled "MTTTruckDrag15677"

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:42 pm

It doesn't say anything about a mock action pleat, but these are the two photos:

In the first photo it looks very much like a functioning action pleat, but certainly it could be a mock pleat.

- Mac

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:48 pm

of course I see that there are some sort of action pleats,Im not blind.... but what i am talking about is that they doesnt look to be functional. they look like they are sewn to stay open. or just placed there to give the look of an Indy jacket....

but lets not take this topic down hill to the 'non' action pleats again....... there are many other threads that have this as a topic...

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:50 pm

Edited because I was going off topic.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:56 pm

I recall _ explaining those as being mock pleats, as in sewn to look like pleats but actually flat. I don't know if that was done later just for scene continuity or not, but the write up indicates the jacket did not have a detailed back (no pleats).

The Wilson's jacket was used apparently because it did not have action pleat, but doesn't mean it didn't look like it had or was made to look like it had.

Even your photo is titled MTTTruckDrag15677

Maybe _ can elaborate.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:10 pm

Holt I'm not suggesting you're blind

, just suggesting that perhaps this particular jacket wasn't the jacket without pleats or with mock pleats (and more to the point, that this has a low yoke like Bantu wind). It's possible that the Wilson's jacket was used in another shot and not this particular one.

RCSignals wrote:Even your photo is titled MTTTruckDrag15677

That's a screen capture I made and named, so don't read too much into that.

- Mac

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:50 pm

no..no...my friend

I guess I was a bit short or edgy. sorry..