Whipmakers: Anyone worked with both Nylon AND kangaroo?

[PyramidBlaster]

The reason being, I've had really good results during my foray into Nylon, and even though I've worked with latigo, Redhide, and cowhide before...I'm ready to jump off into Roo country.

Now, I've worked out and tweaked a spreadsheet over the past few years that's working great with Nylon. SO, has anyone here worked with BOTH Nylon and Kangaroo? I'd like to know how they braid---similarities and differences. I know all about soaping laces, paring, and such...But how's the typical thickness of Kangaroo, compared to Nylon? How about the weight issue? Stuff like that. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Point is, I'm trying to gauge how well my formula will translate to Kangaroo.

At this point, I'm looking at building a test whip using the pre-cut spools of drum-stuffed 1/4" kangaroo DM sells on his site...And if all goes well, moving up to nicer hides like the ones available from Midwest Whips, and cutting the laces myself, like I used to...

Anyone used the pre-cut lace from DM? couldn't be that bad...Could it? For starters?

[rjallen70]

Pretty quiet here eh' blaster?
Well...I haven't done much with roo but fooled about with it a bit.
DM's lace is pretty pricey (but I assume good). With the current exchange rate though, I would get in touch with Simon Martin, or Mike Murphy. Stay away from the machine cut stuff, and you should be fine. As to the thickness it is about the same before stretching, but thins a bit when you pull it. (Which is why more bolstering is required than with our nylon whips). .9-1.1mm or a little less to start. You can get lace that is the same width as what we use too if you are not looking to taper them. You'll make a right reasonable whip. Some of the Australian masters don't bevel em either...
Best of Luck my friend.
Ron
Disclaimer...I have never used pre cut lace, but if you speak to Simon he will set you straight.

[PyramidBlaster]

At least someone's awake...Of course, I didn't think I'd get too much on this...It's kind of a specialized question.

DM's lace is listed at a set price, so it shouldn't fluctuate...I figured out how much it would cost to buy hides, and from what I'm seeing so far, it would actually be cheaper with the pre-cut lace...But that was domestic. I'll try Martin or Murphy. I'm not opposed to cuttin' my own lace again...But i'd rather not at this juncture.

Where did you find the pre-cut lace in the same width as Nylon? I figured the typical 1/4" or 6mm lace would end up about the same after stretching....Hmm...that must be on Mike Murphy's site.

[rjallen70]

Rhett Kelley and I were talking about it. He bought it from Simon....OOPS I meant Mike Murphy.
The mind slips sometimes.
Ron

[PyramidBlaster]

Yeah, I'm seeing that.

WOW, I just ran the numbers...Man that's cheap. You're totally right about the conversion rate. I could make a Roo whip for cheaper than i used to make in cowhide!!!!!

As always....Thanks, Ron....I'll let you know how it turns out...

[rjallen70]

Are you sure your math is right? 6 sq inches gives 96 "or more of lace from the hide....before stretching...2 good size hides will make a long whip...bellies bolsters and all. And are reasonable if you order from down under.
Ron

[PyramidBlaster]

Yeah...I'd need about 250 feet, add about 50' for spare...That's 300'...Roughly equivalent to 90m. 50m spools come to aus$62, which ends up at $39us...We're talking $80+shipping for well more than enough.....330'...I used to spend upwards of $120+tax for the redhide or similar to do a good size whip...Then again, it was Tandy leather....Learned a lot since those days!

[louiefoxx]

What size whip are you making? are you doing two bellies two bolsters?

with 6mm lace, I'm guessing your going for a 16 plait...or a very skinny 12 plait.

Are you using a spike, cane or something else for the handle?

In my head something with your numbers doesn't make sense to me...I think you might be missing a few feet of lace somewhere.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

[PyramidBlaster]

Hey, Louie! I was getting worried that nobody else would show up to the party....

It's a 10' whip.

It's a 16-plait overlay, and I'm kicking around whether to do one belly or (probably) two bellies. Currently, the nylon whips I'm making are one belly, two bolsters...With some non-traditional (but successful) filler in place of the 1st belly...And my belly is 10-plait. It's working really well.

For the handle, I'm currently using billet aluminum attached to a stainless knob.

Total cordage comes to the neighborhood of 240 feet for a 10' whip. With a 2nd belly, that would probably be more like 300'.

Any insight you have to offer is much appreciated.

[classicbullwhips]

Hey PyramidBlaster,

I have been reading your post for a while but just have not had the time to respond. I have worked with all types of materials in whip making started with nylon and moved to the different leathers, kangaroo first then kip (i know kind of backwards). I have to agree with Louie in that I think that your math is a bit off for kangaroo leather for the whip that you are wanting to make. For my nylon whips this is what I use in terms of layers => handle + inter core at the end of the handle, 1st plated belly, second plated belly, then the overlay. For my kangaroo whips to be the same thickness as my nylon this is what i use in terms of layers => handle + inter core, bolster, 1st plaited belly, bolster, 2nd plaited belly, bolster, overlay. With my whips I use about the same math equation depending on the materials to find out what the width and lengths are. For width I usually use 4.5 x the width in mm of the handle width, then divide that by how many strands you plan to use, width of strand will be in mm. For length I do about 1.5 x the length, length will be in feet . This is an about, for different materials you will have to find out the best that works for you. But by my calculations the length that you say would only satisfy the overlay. I personally think that it would be more beneficial and cheaper for you to buy hides from Simon and cut the strand yourself (who I highly recommend and if you go through him tell him I sent you). Plus you will be learning more if you cut the strands your self and be saving money. I hope my reply helped, if you have anymore questions please feel free to ask and I will be happy to answer.

Keep Crackin,
James

[PyramidBlaster]

Thanks, James...I'm really glad to have a couple of people's takes to draw from.

Does the length seem short? I'm pretty sure my calculations work out. Keep in mind that 240' is only the lace for one belly and one overlay. I'm using something else in lieu of the other belly (innermost). I figure about 162' for the overlay, and about 75' for the belly. It's working with 5mm Nylon.

I've cut hides before...I've worked in latigo, redhide, and cowhide, but not kangaroo. I don't mind cutting hides myself, but also don't mind paying a little extra for someone else to do it. Yes, you can taper the laces when you cut them yourself...But I'm not entirely sure I'm gonna taper them on this first whip---I'm liking how the nylon braids up (by nature untapered), and as long as I have enough strands to drop it should work out.

[louiefoxx]

Are you planning on paring the lace at an angle? If you do that the lace will braid a bit tighter and will braid more lace that's .25 - 1.0 mm thinner. Just another thing to keep in mind.

I've never used precut lace, but you might want to make sure it's from the less stretchy parts of the hide. You don't want to stretch out your lace to discover that a good portion of it is only 2.5mm after stretching. I think I've read somewhere that with hand cut lace usually who ever is cutting compensates for stretch and will cut around scars, but a machine won't.

Once again I've never use precut lace so be sure to factor that into any calculations.

xoxo

louie
http://bullwhips.org

[PyramidBlaster]

Are you planning on paring the lace at an angle? If you do that the lace will braid a bit tighter and will braid more lace that's .25 - 1.0 mm thinner.

I'm thinking so. This is one reason I'm looking at 6mm lace, but I don't want to lose too much width between paring the laces and stretching them.

Also, the info on hand-cut laces is a good bit to think about---I'll have to talk it over with perspective suppliers before I pull the trigger.

Once again...THANK YOU ALL for your thoughts and information! This is really, really valuable to me...No reason to stop, though, if you have more to add!