vintage fedoras

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:48 pm

i hear vintage fedora's are ideal to work with as the felt is finally 'dead'.......not much chance of taper. my question is, why aren't there more people buying up these old hats, tearing them down and building new indy feds?

is it really worth it to recycle these hats? i know alot of you hate tapering (as do i).......am i really safe from the taper monster if i go abouts doing it this way?

i just wanted to see different opinions as i am contemplating buying a vintage fedora and doing a tear down and blocking.

PyramidBlaster · Post by **PyramidBlaster** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:04 pm

I have a vintage Borsalino That I bought well over a decade ago...The thing is absolutely wonderful...It's simply from another time. I know I paid a pittance for it-like $20. Just study up and trust your instincts!

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:05 pm

Personally, unless the hat is already in need of serious work, I could never tear apart a good vintage hat. It would break my heart to do it, and to hear of it being done.

The other thing is, vintage hats are fetching high prices in the popular sizes in good condition. Still, it is possible to find some pretty beat ones out there at low prices that would be worth transforming. As long as the felt is good, you're golden.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:12 pm

I'm with Chewie. Unless the hat needs it, I would leave it be. You just don't mess with vintage.

...Don't know why I used that smiley, but I hadn't used it yet.

Dave

PyramidBlaster · Post by **PyramidBlaster** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Yeah..I didn't mention that aspect...I wouldn't make that hat into an 'Indy' hat for all the tea in china! I'm leaving it as-is...But I do need to replace the sweatband...

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:09 pm

Indiana G wrote:i hear vintage fedora's are ideal to work with as the felt is finally 'dead'.......not much chance of taper. my question is, why aren't there more people buying up these old hats, tearing them down and building new indy feds?

is it really worth it to recycle these hats? i know alot of you hate tapering (as do i).......am i really safe from the taper monster if i go abouts doing it this way?

i just wanted to see different opinions as i am contemplating buying a vintage fedora and doing a tear down and blocking.

First of all in a not too far future it could potentially be considered as the vandalic act of the hatters in the 00's

No more seriously, PLENTY of hats from the past simply do not have enough material to work on, they used to sell a lot of them with very short brims (gosh do I hate those short brims?) and also not too tall crowns, and generally small sizes, for some reasons people used to buy sizes much smaller than their actual head, never understood that fashon but so it was... often, not always.

Anyway I'm sure it costs less to get a new "virgin" felt than an old one (potentially moth eaten) and having to work double to get it reworked. The hats would end up costing even more than new ones

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:21 pm

Well, hats were smaller simply because heads were smaller! It's much easier to find short and stingy brimmed fedoras from the '50s and beyond than it is to find them from the '40s and earlier, especially in modern hat sizes. If you do find them in 7 1/8 and above, it's not uncommon for them to fetch hefty prices, though you can still find a steal once in a blue moon.

Personally, I wouldn't cut up a vintage fedora, either, especially if it's in really good shape. They're just not as many of them around as there used to be. Now, if you find a vintage fedora and the sweat is falling apart and the rest of the hat looks a little beat up, by all means feel free to bring it back to life. Just respect the hat if it's still a beaut in its own right. Don't take a beautiful bound or pencil brim and hack away at it with a pair of scissors. In fact, there are a few here who found nice vintage lids with this very idea in mind, only to see the true value and beauty of the hat as is. They wisely left the hats alone and wore them as intended.

So my vote is, find a beat up vintage fedora for your experiments, but leave the healthy ones alone (or send them to me).

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:49 pm

i wouldn't have any problem ripping apart a 70 year old hat to make what i want.....it's the felt that i'm after..i figure she's had it's life already with the old owner, now it's gotta shape up to my standards

i won't go into any gory details.....maybe if i find one (regardless if its beaten up or 70 year old new deadstock)......i'll just post what i turned it into

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:08 pm

Indy G,

How many hours do you spend making one hat?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:12 pm

BendingOak wrote:Indy G,

How many hours do you spend making one hat?

i don't know really. i usually go in days cuz i work on it at night during the weekdays or in the day time in the weekends (and sometimes late at night).

1st day is the blocking....typically takes under 1/2 hour but i let her dry for 1 or even 2 days (1 day if i put it under a fan)
2nd day is the ironing, brim cut, dim cut, and pouncing
3rd day is the sweat construction and installation. sometimes i'll finish the day with the flanging
final day is tacking the ribbon on and sewing it.....then of course the creasing.

one saturday, i got day 2 and 3 steps done because i felt motivated.....went into the wee hours of the morning with the ribbon work and bash.....

....i know.....i'm quite slow

................i like to take my time to do each step to the best of my ability. one time i threw a hat together, slept for a couple of hours then went to work......that was a bad day

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:20 pm

It takes me about a total of 12 hours and that is spread over 2 weeks.

Now G, I say with most respect. take a look at your last post.

i wouldn't have any problem ripping apart a 70 year old hat to make what i want.....it's the felt that i'm after..i figure she's had it's life already with the old owner, now it's gotta shape up to my standards

i won't go into any gory details.....maybe if i find one (regardless if its beaten up or 70 year old new deadstock)......i'll just post what i turned it into

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:46 pm

Now that is being "GREEN"!!!!!

Green is good...no? Well thats what there are saying on HGTV.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:50 am

I recently ordered a brown vintage borsalino off ebay. It reads, "chapeau vimenet" and apparently was made in Belgium. It's a size 7, luckily I have a smaller head. They said the crown is 6"! That should make for one tall raiders hat, too tall for screen accuracy but I am looking forward to see what I can do with the thing.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:38 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Well, hats were smaller simply because heads were smaller!

And yet we didn't improve in intelligence much did we?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:13 am

I won't argue that one!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:05 am

I will say that if you DO decide to bring an old one back from the dead for use, try and find a hatter that has the same respect for the vintage angle of your hat as you do. They'll treat it with care, and you'll end up with a 'new' vintage hat that looks and wears as good as the day it was made.

Been there, done that, still wearing my Borsalino (that bink found for me;) )

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:07 am

Post by **Jens** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:39 am

Owning an AB Deluxe which was made of a vintage rawbody I totally agree about the felt "not working" any longer, since it's already dead. I gave my hat a really hart time (heat, dust, humidity, iciness, people accidently sitting on it or squeezing it with bags in too small compartements) an it literally does not show any trace of taper. So from a "taper fear" point of view, I can give the all-clear.

Plus, I really like the thought of a hat with his own history (which reaches farther back than my own one) ... could be a job-related quirk 'though.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:48 am

Heck, I used to do this all the time. Back when you could pick up a vintage hat for 25 bucks! They are indeed taper proof, if you get a higher end hat, and stay away from certain economy brands of the day. Sought after brands would be Stetson, Knox, Cavanagh(not cavanagh edge ones) and really old Dobbs. And of course the famous Borsalinos, but be prepared to pay big bucks for this brand.

The trouble is finding one in the right color and with enough brim. I found that buying the less desired homburgs, worked out the best. Many came with 2 3/4 brims. You have to take the binding off, and iron them flat, but at least you have almost enough brim to work with. I have never found one that had a 3 inch brim. On any dress hat.

These days, I can't bring myself to change a vintage hat, but its a personal thing. But, as I said, I used to do it all the time before the prices went high. I think TFL crowd contributed in pushing the ebay prices up on vintage hats.

On new hats, they don't age the fur, or the felt anymore and you get hats more prone to taper, notably when you get them damp. This can be helped out big time by using the water repellant treatment I found a few months ago. Naptha based, and you can hold the hat under a faucet and not get the felt wet. Since this treatment is not a topical based one like what I used to use, but absorbs into the felt, it stays on and in the hat for a long, long time. Periodic treatments are not needed, and once a year might be a good guess, by what I have seen so far on my own hat that is being field tested. Two frog stranglers, and no taper at all, and this is the rabbit hat I made on LLS's block. Without the treatment, I would have already seen taper, going by past experience with rabbit felt.

Vintage felt still makes me salivate, and the vintage rabbit is really good, on the brands mentioned above. I still have a collection of them, culled down a few years ago to keep only the really outstanding ones. I never wear them! Stored in moth balls. Every now and then, I will pull em out for admiration time.

Every one of them has a hand stitched liner, and no stitches at the brim break. They really know how to make em way back. Fedora

carolinamike · Post by **carolinamike** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:26 pm

Steve,
When you say naptha-based what does that mean? Because I have a bottle of naptha right here. Now if I used it on my hat, would I have a waterproof hat or just a VERY combustible hat?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:07 pm

Indiana G wrote:i wouldn't have any problem ripping apart a 70 year old hat to make what i want.....it's the felt that i'm after..i figure she's had it's life already with the old owner, now it's gotta shape up to my standards

i won't go into any gory details.....maybe if i find one (regardless if its beaten up or 70 year old new deadstock)......i'll just post what i turned it into

Dude, if you find old new deadstock that's 70's years old, at a price that would be worth paying just to dismantle; not only would it be a horrid crime to tear it apart, but it would be financially... well... dumb. The price you could get for a lid like that could probably fund a dozen beaters! I am pleading with you. Don't do it, man! Please!!!!

Think about what Oak is saying. Those hats weren't just spit out by a mindless factory machine! Somebody (or several somebodies) loved them into existence just as you have done with yours.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:08 pm

carolinamike wrote:Steve,
When you say naptha-based what does that mean? Because I have a bottle of naptha right here. Now if I used it on my hat, would I have a waterproof hat or just a VERY combustible hat?

i believe that naptha assists in allowing for the solvent to penetrate the felt. from what i can recall, naptha alone will assist in cleaning the felt. let me know how close to the prize i got on that

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:11 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:
Indiana G wrote:i wouldn't have any problem ripping apart a 70 year old hat to make what i want.....it's the felt that i'm after..i figure she's had it's life already with the old owner, now it's gotta shape up to my standards

i won't go into any gory details.....maybe if i find one (regardless if its beaten up or 70 year old new deadstock)......i'll just post what i turned it into

Dude, if you find old new deadstock that's 70's years old, at a price that would be worth paying just to dismantle; not only would it be a horrid crime to tear it apart, but it would be financially... well... dumb. The price you could get for a lid like that could probably fund a dozen beaters! I am pleading with you. Don't do it, man! Please!!!!

Think about what Oak is saying. Those hats weren't just spit out by a mindless factory machine! Somebody (or several somebodies) loved them into existence just as you have done with yours.

all right......i'm narrowing my search to vintage cowboy hats then........no one likes those right?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:03 pm

Yeah trash those things

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:09 pm

When you say naptha-based what does that mean? Because I have a bottle of naptha right here. Now if I used it on my hat, would I have a waterproof hat or just a VERY combustible hat

Indy G nailed it. Most treatments are alcohol based, and dry real quick. I am now using a naptha based one, and it takes a day for the smell to leave before I can ship. But, it is superiour to the B and L I have used for years. I think it has some other substance, perhaps the old Scotchguard chemical. And yep, naptha is the traditional cleaning solution for felt hats. It does not activate any stiffener the way alcohol tends to do. So, good to use on your old soft hat. It also has an added advantage of killing pounce mottle, which is wonderful! I reckon that is due to naptha being used instead of alcohol. Fedora

carolinamike · Post by **carolinamike** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:37 pm

But the naphtha doesn't actually water proof, it's just a carrier for the waterproofing agent, right?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:41 pm

carolinamike wrote:But the naphtha doesn't actually water proof, it's just a carrier for the waterproofing agent, right?

yup.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:47 pm

Fedora wrote:
When you say naptha-based what does that mean? Because I have a bottle of naptha right here. Now if I used it on my hat, would I have a waterproof hat or just a VERY combustible hat
Indy G nailed it. Most treatments are alcohol based, and dry real quick. I am now using a naptha based one, and it takes a day for the smell to leave before I can ship. But, it is superiour to the B and L I have used for years. I think it has some other substance, perhaps the old Scotchguard chemical. And yep, naptha is the traditional cleaning solution for felt hats. It does not activate any stiffener the way alcohol tends to do. So, good to use on your old soft hat. It also has an added advantage of killing pounce mottle, which is wonderful! I reckon that is due to naptha being used instead of alcohol. Fedora

I just keep having this felling of a customer opening a box of mine and getting that smell and freaking them out. I now give my hats some extra time before boxing them up. I tried that stuff on one of my hats and I didn't give enough time to air out and it just was freaking out my wife when we went out to eat.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:27 pm

Why does this question bother me so much?

Indiana G wrote:i hear vintage fedora's are ideal to work with as the felt is finally 'dead'.......not much chance of taper. my question is, why aren't there more people buying up these old hats, tearing them down and building new indy feds?

is it really worth it to recycle these hats? i know alot of you hate tapering (as do i).......am i really safe from the taper monster if i go abouts doing it this way?

i just wanted to see different opinions as i am contemplating buying a vintage fedora and doing a tear down and blocking.

How would you feel if someone took one of your fedoras and took it apart and reblocked just the felt body to suit their needs. It's as if you never existed or did any thing with that felt body.

People like myself want to preserve as much what The Greatest Generation did, from the buildings they built, books that they wrote and hats they made. That's why I think nobody wants to destroy vintage fedoras.

Now, if someone came across an old fedora that needed a new liner, sweatband or ribbon, with some horrible taper that made it beyond being wearable then by all means someone should fix it up. But to take a perfectly good vintage fedora and make it more Indy Like would be like painting Britney Spears' body on the Mona Lisa.

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:56 pm

So is this waterproofing a secret formula....or can the little guys get it?????

Sounds like something I could use since it is either raining or snowing just about every day in wonderful Northwest Ohio.

(I hope it is not a secret)

ohhh and rip the heck out of those cowboy hats. My dad has a "gus" lonesome dove hat that I have been trying to sneak out of the shop to play with on the Frankinblock

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:34 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote:Why does this question bother me so much?

Indiana G wrote:i hear vintage fedora's are ideal to work with as the felt is finally 'dead'.......not much chance of taper. my question is, why aren't there more people buying up these old hats, tearing them down and building new indy feds?

is it really worth it to recycle these hats? i know alot of you hate tapering (as do i).......am i really safe from the taper monster if i go abouts doing it this way?

i just wanted to see different opinions as i am contemplating buying a vintage fedora and doing a tear down and blocking.
How would you feel if someone took one of your fedoras and took it apart and reblocked just the felt body to suit their needs. It's as if you never existed or did any thing with that felt body.

People like myself want to preserve as much what The Greatest Generation did, from the buildings they built, books that they wrote and hats they made. That's why I think nobody wants to destroy vintage fedoras.

Now, if someone came across an old fedora that needed a new liner, sweatband or ribbon, with some horrible taper that made it beyond being wearable then by all means someone should fix it up. But to take a perfectly good vintage fedora and make it more Indy Like would be like painting Britney Spears' body on the Mona Lisa.

i understand where you, chewie, oak and others are coming from and as i discussed with him last night, i respect your views.

i'm not very sentimental when it comes to things that i create......even if it was my best efforts and i was extremely pleased with what i produced, that initial satisfaction is all i need for my mental health. i have discarded sketches, paintings (which i have been told that i am also really good at), and many other things primarily because i know if i could do it successfully once, i have the skills and knowledge to do it again. that being said, if someone wanted to take that pecan fed, that i'm pleased as punch over, buy it and then turn it into a TOD hat and throw a dorfman pin on it...that would be his/her perogative and it wouldn't bother me in the least.

i've started searching for vintage cowboy hats, but in that sense.........my views would probably irritate some of the rodeo folks that i use to ride with too. i guess i will just respect the preservation views of folks and leave it at that.

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