Where are the original Raiders jackets today?

Post by **Holt** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:54 am

yes,true.

the one with backroom distressing before it was sold on the auction.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:21 am

Indiana Holt wrote:yes,true.

the one with backroom distressing before it was sold on the auction.

Yes that was the one I was talking about !

CM · Post by CM » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:38 pm

Interesting, Holt. I thought it looked like one of Peter's early jobs too. Those pockets are the key, I think.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:40 pm

I take it you talk about the butterfiel VS wested mid 90's jacket right?

yes the pockets are key.they are to me almost identical.also the width of the stormflap.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:22 pm

OK, so to clarify, it was likely a Raiders jacket auctioned after Last Crusade thus given a LC style backroom distressing job?

Post by **Holt** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:30 pm

I dont know, and I dont care to much about that jacket.......

the jacket could been a raiders jacket pulled out of the raiders storage room and given a quick LC distressing and sold of as an LC jacket.

or it could be a production LC jacket. most likely it is an LC jacket....

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:53 pm

Leather Concessionaires made a number of jackets for Berman's for Lucasfilm after LC wrapped, these were used as gifts to vips and other promo use. The Kurtz is one of those, I think.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:14 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:OK, so to clarify, it was likely a Raiders jacket auctioned after Last Crusade thus given a LC style backroom distressing job?

I don't think it is a Raiders movie jacket, but possibly a later Leather Concessionaires 'replica' offering, or maybe an LC that didn't get storm flap studs.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:15 pm

Kt Templar wrote:Leather Concessionaires made a number of jackets for Berman's for Lucasfilm after LC wrapped, these were used as gifts to vips and other promo use. The Kurtz is one of those, I think.

the 'Mr. Sparks' jacket is likely one of those as well

Post by **Holt** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:16 pm

RC:

the jacket has the press studs on the storm flap. two of them have fallen of. but the two other studs is still remaining on the jacket.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... cket_7.jpg

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:22 pm

neutronbomb I think some of that can be answered with

Costume designers like to put their own stamp on a movie.

If you follow the 'LLS is here' thread in the Fedora section some of the 'caricature' question is explained about the block being used.

The rest about the changes in jacket over all the movies I think opens a real can of worms.
Some of the circumstances surrounding the CS movie are in this forum, some in Interviews with Berni Pollack, and in the extra info on the movie DVDs.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:22 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:RC:

the jacket has the press studs on the storm flap. two of them have fallen of. but the two other studs is still remaining on the jacket.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... cket_7.jpg

OK thanks. That explains it!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:10 pm

Okay, I'm going to try to be very general here because I'm still confused by some areas of this.

I'm not going to touch the Temple jacket question as I'm still working that out.

But I think the basic answer is that Ford, Lucas, et. al., don't hold the Raiders jacket and fedora in the same esteem that we do. I like the jackets and fedoras from the other movies, but Raiders is the jacket and hat. Ford and others picked the LC and CS designs (both based on a jacket commissioned from Lee Keppler if memory serves me) as what they wanted in the jacket. Does it match up with what most of us would have chosen? I suspect that most of us would have had Ford back in his Raiders gear if given the chance but they were the guys making the call.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:52 am

crismans wrote: But I think the basic answer is that Ford, Lucas, et. al., don't hold the Raiders jacket and fedora in the same esteem that we do. I like the jackets and fedoras from the other movies, but Raiders is the jacket and hat. Ford and others picked the LC and CS designs (both based on a jacket commissioned from Lee Keppler if memory serves me) as what they wanted in the jacket. Does it match up with what most of us would have chosen? I suspect that most of us would have had Ford back in his Raiders gear if given the chance but they were the guys making the call.

Of course Lucas and Ford aren't into gear. The costume is merely part of telling a story and that's their primary focus: the story. Being obsessed with pocket flaps and drape is the job of nuts like us, the fans. Ford was never all that crazy about the costume in the first place. Remember it's an acting job for him (amongst many) - while it is a passion for us.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:01 am

neutronbomb wrote:If these are silly questions, please forgive me:

1. If Harrison Ford and Lucas have THE or even A original ROLA jacket from the ROLA movie, why didn't they just take it over to PETER to make more for the TOD, LC, KoTCS movies?

2. Why did Lucas and all decide to go with different jacket designs and designers for the other movies?

3. Same with Fedora. Apparently Lucas and co. have access to the original Raiders Fedora(s). Why wouldn't they just give one to AB to reproduce a copy? Which begs the question, when AB's Steve sent them one of his ROLA fedoras, why did HF and the costumer say it looked like a caricature of the fedora when all they had to do was look at one of the original ROLA fedoras and see that what Steve sent them was incredibly close?

4. I just don't understand why Lucas and co. don't just get the original ROLA Fedora and Jacket (like take it our of the glass display case Georgie) and have it exactly reproduced for the rest of the movies. I mean, I've read on this forum where HF said, "Are you sure this is the guy who made the jacket?" Why go through all the submissions and designs by the different designers to finally pick one that looks like an Indiana Jones jacket or Fedora and have HF and the costumer debate over them when all HF (or George) had to do was bring one of his original ROLA jackets or fedoras over to whoever the designer is going to be and say, "hey there dude? Make a copy of this."

5. I understand that I don't know anything about the business of making movies or anything related to it and I must really, really be missing something big time, but I just don't see how hard it could be to not take the original jacket back to Peter and say, "This is THE JACKET. There are many like it, but this one is THE JACKET. THIS JACKET is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, THE JACKET is useless. Without THE JACKET, I am useless. I must wear THE JACKET true. I must wear THE JACKET better than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must wear THE JACKET before he WEARS a different inferior model jacket. I will. Before God I swear this creed: THE JACKET and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen." I mean, come on, how hard could it be?

Calm down ther partner.

It's easy to understand. These costume variations are only recognised by obsessive fans who have got things out of all proportion.

For Lucas etc, each film would simply be a case of - "Give me another hat and jacket... I hope this plot works."

Very, very, very few people notice or care about the differences in costume. And really this whole SA thing is part of the more recent DVD obsessive fan culture that spots tiny little details.

Doesn't mean we nuts can't enjoy it, but leave the film makers to their thing... I would be more pleased if the last Indy film had been thought out better. The costume was the least of its problems. Enjoyed it - but it wasn't Raiders - not even close.

Cheers ;-)

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:29 am

neutronbomb, there is info on the main site (and more updates in the works) regarding the jacket, hat, etc., which should answer many of your questions. In brief, there were contractual reasons (best way to put it) why Peter was not asked to make the jackets for ToD. Also, the ToD jacket was licensed before production began, which made for some interesting twists. As for the hat, modern Herbert Johnson hats are far from what they were in quality and shape during the filming of Raiders. Spielberg looked at HJ hats for the latest movie, but he was so disappointed with them that he looked elsewhere to see who could replicate the hat to his satisfaction. There's plenty of good reading on the main site regarding much of the gear we love. ;-)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:59 am

Success of Raiders movie is undeniable. It was recently voted 2nd best movie of all time by I don't remember which magazine.

Everything in that movie was perfect, the era, the setting, the cast, the music, the fx, the costumes etc.

Right, the raiders costume was so perfect that changing it could only make it worse.

Then why dump the original Raiders jacket and go with the keppler's copy? The answer could only be that Lucas et. al. don't have the original jacket any more.

Yet if they don't have it how did they give it to TN to copy?
It's a mystery.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:06 am

PLATON wrote:
Then why dump the original Raiders jacket and go with the keppler's copy? The answer could only be that Lucas et. al. don't have the original jacket any more.

The answer, as I understand it, is that they liked the design of the Keppler copy better than the Raiders jacket. It's not that they don't have a Raiders original, just that they preferred the LC/CS design to the Raiders.

I'm with you that the Raiders costume was perfect, but the makers of the movies don't see it that way.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:35 pm

Yeah, seems like they were migrating more toward a ''''real world" jacket than a "fictional action hero" ie trying to appeal more to the general movie going public than we "gear nuts" in love with the original

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:23 pm

Hatch wrote:Yeah, seems like they were migrating more toward a ''''real world" jacket than a "fictional action hero" ie trying to appeal more to the general movie going public than we "gear nuts" in love with the original

If you ask me, I would think that the change from "looking-good" to "wearing-good" (aka hard wearing, real-world) jacket would be more of a move to appel to the gear-heads than to the general public.

Why? Because having clothes that look good on screen but aren't realistically durable is something that appeals to the average movie-goer, while those same clothes would be ripped apart by obsessive gear-heads like us, who pick apart those clothes and argue about how they wouldn't last in the real world. Having real-world durable jackets on screen kinda makes it look a little less appealing, but for gear-heads, we'll go "Well, I *guess* it could last..." ;-)

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm

Castor Dioscuri wrote:
Hatch wrote:Yeah, seems like they were migrating more toward a ''''real world" jacket than a "fictional action hero" ie trying to appeal more to the general movie going public than we "gear nuts" in love with the original
If you ask me, I would think that the change from "looking-good" to "wearing-good" (aka hard wearing, real-world) jacket would be more of a move to appel to the gear-heads than to the general public.

Why? Because having clothes that look good on screen but aren't realistically durable is something that appeals to the average movie-goer, while those same clothes would be ripped apart by obsessive gear-heads like us, who pick apart those clothes and argue about how they wouldn't last in the real world. Having real-world durable jackets on screen kinda makes it look a little less appealing, but for gear-heads, we'll go "Well, I *guess* it could last..." ;-)

Ok,maybe I should have said "SA gear heads"

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:58 pm

Castor Dioscuri wrote:
Hatch wrote:Yeah, seems like they were migrating more toward a ''''real world" jacket than a "fictional action hero" ie trying to appeal more to the general movie going public than we "gear nuts" in love with the original
If you ask me, I would think that the change from "looking-good" to "wearing-good" (aka hard wearing, real-world) jacket would be more of a move to appel to the gear-heads than to the general public.

Why? Because having clothes that look good on screen but aren't realistically durable is something that appeals to the average movie-goer, while those same clothes would be ripped apart by obsessive gear-heads like us, who pick apart those clothes and argue about how they wouldn't last in the real world. Having real-world durable jackets on screen kinda makes it look a little less appealing, but for gear-heads, we'll go "Well, I *guess* it could last..." ;-)

Totally disagree. The VAST majority of people here wanting an Indy jacket are looking for the Raiders jacket. The look, the drape, the form are what they fell in love with. It was movie magic and that is what people are after.

The later jackets with the bigger/looser fit are designed to make the older Ford look better, with the best will in the world he doesn't have the definition or the posture of his thirty-something self.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:16 pm

Not sure about the posture, but I recently saw a pic of him in a gray t-shirt and slacks and he looks awfully solid ... considerably more muscled than his Raiders days.

I like the Raiders style too, though I'm catching up to HF. I think it's more the drape and flow of the leather, and that it's dark, almost black. It's not that I don't like brown; I do. Raiders just set the standard.

CM · Post by CM » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:32 pm

PLATON wrote:
Then why dump the original Raiders jacket and go with the keppler's copy? The answer could only be that Lucas et. al. don't have the original jacket any more.

Yet if they don't have it how did they give it to TN to copy?
It's a mystery.

Are you saying that TN didn't have a hero jacket to copy? Why don't you say it clearly here so we can have it out?

I personally prefer the ToD Jacket to the Raiders even though I like Raiders and not the other films. Jacket choice is not that simple, Platon.

But Platon - don't forget one thing. Lucas has demonstrated questionable taste in movie after movie. It is TOTALLY possible that he wanted a different jacket. And besides - he may never have liked the original Raiders jaket all that much. For all we know, he may have said to himself - the movie is perfect, except for that jacket... Anything is possible.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:35 pm

It's been well documented by Paterson that Ford & Bernie Pollock had the pick of every jacket in the archives, including the OG Raiders in Lucas own cabinet. They chose the Keppler jacket, whether we like it or not. Let’s try to speculate on things that are a mystery. This is not a mystery. Cheers

tym · Post by **tym** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:11 am

neutronbomb wrote:5. I understand that I don't know anything about the business of making movies or anything related to it and I must really, really be missing something big time, but I just don't see how hard it could be to not take the original jacket back to Peter and say, "This is THE JACKET. There are many like it, but this one is THE JACKET. THIS JACKET is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, THE JACKET is useless. Without THE JACKET, I am useless. I must wear THE JACKET true. I must wear THE JACKET better than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must wear THE JACKET before he WEARS a different inferior model jacket. I will. Before God I swear this creed: THE JACKET and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen." I mean, come on, how hard could it be?

Show me your war face!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:38 am

It's been well documented by Paterson that Ford & Bernie Pollock had the pick of every jacket in the archives, including the OG Raiders in Lucas own cabinet. They chose the Keppler jacket, whether we like it or not. Let’s try to speculate on things that are a mystery. This is not a mystery. Cheers

Thanks for reminding this to us.

By the way, I forgot to ask. Did Terry Leonard keep his jacket from Raiders?

Is there any possibility that TN copied his jacket to make the TN Raiders? They seem to be so close.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:59 am

I dont think Tony copied Terry's jacket.

they dont look anything alike....

take it from the grandmaster ;-)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:51 am

The Grandmaster Flash?

Yo!! Hammertime

CM · Post by CM » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:41 pm

PLATON wrote:
It's been well documented by Paterson that Ford & Bernie Pollock had the pick of every jacket in the archives, including the OG Raiders in Lucas own cabinet. They chose the Keppler jacket, whether we like it or not. Let’s try to speculate on things that are a mystery. This is not a mystery. Cheers
Thanks for reminding this to us.

By the way, I forgot to ask. Did Terry Leonard keep his jacket from Raiders?

Is there any possibility that TN copied his jacket to make the TN Raiders? They seem to be so close.

So Platon, again, you don't seem to accept that the TN jacket was a hero jacket. That's fine... why not say it out loud rather than beat about the bush?

I think the G&B jacket (Leonard's jacket copy) looks a lot like the TN jacket too.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:01 pm

this is only my opinion..

this is how I see the jacket, a different person might say that it looks spot on..I respect that of course...its all differnt opinions on different jackets.

thats what I love about this place. we all see thing with our own eyes...and discuss it

Venkman · Post by **Venkman** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:52 pm

BTW, I went into the American History museum on Inauguration Day, the LC jacket is no longer on display, at least not right now. They are just coming off of a huge renovation, and a lot of stuff that was there before is gone/in storage. They did have a full ROTJ C3PO outfit though that looked pretty good.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:04 pm

I do know that Tony has said Terry tried on Tony's personal jacket and said something to the effect of "That's it."

I also remember reading that Tony was making Terry a jacket in a lighter shade of the shrunken lambskin as Terry said his jacket was a lighter brown than the brown we've gotten (which matched up with the Hawaiian jacket).

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:42 pm

Neutron, there's a nine page thread about that only a few posts down. Feel free to browse through.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:00 pm

neutronbomb wrote:So even Terry, who wore and saw the original ROLA jacket, looked, touched, tried on, ordered, and examined one of TN's shrunken lambskin jackets and believes it to be the same. That's pretty strong.

To be fair that was a LONG time ago and he would have been concentrating more on not braking bones than the costume he was wearing.

Could you tell the material of a jacket you were wore thirty years ago?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:15 pm

Kt Templar wrote:
neutronbomb wrote:So even Terry, who wore and saw the original ROLA jacket, looked, touched, tried on, ordered, and examined one of TN's shrunken lambskin jackets and believes it to be the same. That's pretty strong.
To be fair that was a LONG time ago and he would have been concentrating more on not braking bones than the costume he was wearing.

Could you tell the material of a jacket you were wore thirty years ago?

Exactly, thats like asking Harrison what jackets he wore on TOD RAiders OR LC

he couldnt even remember stuff about INDY back in 97

Actually I think Deborah nadoolman would know, she has a much more detailled eye and was more involved in the costume than the actor where.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:23 pm

Kt Templar wrote:
To be fair that was a LONG time ago and he would have been concentrating more on not braking bones than the costume he was wearing.

Could you tell the material of a jacket you were wore thirty years ago?

Obviously, Terry Leonard feels he can. If you take Tony's word for it, Terry slipped on the jacket and said "That's it."

Tony has related this story several times (a couple of times to me, personally).

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:30 pm

I heard the story from Tony as well. For all I know maybe Terry was really into the jackets - I guess he kept some, correct?

Speaking of a long time ago, it's also possible the person who made the originals has forgotten details as well. I have trouble remembering details from jobs only a few years ago, or even remembering a job at all!

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:10 pm

Though I haven't seen it 'in the flesh', it looks from pictures like that Shrunken lamb is very distinctive in appearance and texture.
I can imagine that when actually wearing it, there wouldn't be any mistaking it for a smoother textured lamb or other hide.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:28 pm

Kt Templar wrote:
neutronbomb wrote:So even Terry, who wore and saw the original ROLA jacket, looked, touched, tried on, ordered, and examined one of TN's shrunken lambskin jackets and believes it to be the same. That's pretty strong.
To be fair that was a LONG time ago and he would have been concentrating more on not braking bones than the costume he was wearing.

Could you tell the material of a jacket you were wore thirty years ago?

I agree Kt T. Just because he thinks he remembers it does not make it so.

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:49 am

I find the Terry Leonard anecdote pretty meaningless. He said "That's it!" - so?? He might have said the same if he'd tried on a Wested, or a G&B or a Todds. He's probably not worn any kind of Indy jacket since he finished filming, so of course probably any halfway accurate Indy jacket in a soft hide is going to feel like "That's it!"

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:20 am

I find the Terry Leonard anecdote pretty meaningless. He said "That's it!" - so?? He might have said the same if he'd tried on a Wested, or a G&B or a Todds. He's probably not worn any kind of Indy jacket since he finished filming, so of course probably any halfway accurate Indy jacket in a soft hide is going to feel like "That's it!"

True,

Also, if Terry's jacket was different, but it was also screen used, then we want a copy of that too.

Please ask TN to ask Terry to bring in his jacket to copy. This time WE WANT pictures though.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:40 pm

According to the jacket descriptions on the main page, the Jacket Terry Leonard wore had his name written on the lining, had been in the possession of the movie company, and was auctioned for charity. It's the jacket that was examined for specifications and which specs were used to develop the G+B and Todd's jackets.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:56 pm

moses wrote:I find the Terry Leonard anecdote pretty meaningless. He said "That's it!" - so?? He might have said the same if he'd tried on a Wested, or a G&B or a Todds. He's probably not worn any kind of Indy jacket since he finished filming, so of course probably any halfway accurate Indy jacket in a soft hide is going to feel like "That's it!"

I agree to a point, but there is also a huge difference in feel from lambskin to other leathers. A TN CS feels completely different from a TN lambskin Indy 1/Raiders jacket. In fact, anyone that has not worn a TN lambskin Indy 1 is in no real position to make any statement regarding this. It really does have a distinctive (wonky) “feel” that is unmistakable if you’ve ever worn one, for better or worse. Terry’s comments about the color are consistent with our color “findings” over the years. My conundrum when I bought my jacket was that I thought that the lighter colored “shrunken lamb” (or whatever the current nomenclature is) was more “screen accurate”, but the regular color that most have been made from was much “cooler”. I went with the cooler leather.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:12 pm

You've been away too long again _

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:00 am

_ wrote: Thanks.... I've been busy selecting colors... Apparently "I don't care" is not an acceptable position...

It's the worst position you could choose....

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:43 am

_ wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:Leather Concessionaires made a number of jackets for Berman's for Lucasfilm after LC wrapped, these were used as gifts to vips and other promo use. The Kurtz is one of those, I think.
Oy-vey...

This was the same claim made by Wested in 1998 that resulted in legal action by Cooper/USW... USW made those promotional jackets. Hack kept one for himself...

USW/coopers made the Kurtz jacket? REALLY!??? so they made it in the US, sent it to B&N In London to put the tag in and had B&N put the zipper on the european side too? THEN send it back to the US?. The Kurtz jacket has a B&N tag inside. Do current USW jackets have cotton Collar stands too?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:00 am

In order of your questions:

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, but they switched it themselves for continuity reasons.

Yes.

We know.

and....no.

Dutch, this has ALL been covered before, in great detail, and with references.

Regards! Michaelson

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:10 am

Ohw sorry I must have missed that !

thanks for clearing that up though.

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:03 am

So, Sweetie? Is why the door was closed and that guitar was so loud? I thought you were just reminding me you wanted new headphones for V-day! The neighbor asked if we were having The Who over for dinner.

Having the Who over for dinner would be fantastic!!!! Except for John Entwistle and Keith Moon... I'm sure they are a bit rank by now!

any better pics of this Kurtz jacket?