Wested Goat a no go!

Gobler · Post by **Gobler** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:22 pm

Hello all, I just recived this e-mail from Gerry over at Wested. I inquired about a sample of the new authentic goat and here is the responce.

Dear Jeff

Sorry about this, I was a bit previous earlier, I sent your request down to despatch but they have come back to remind me that the goat is not being used at this time. Unfortunately, we have had so many problems with this skin, and the quality is so low lately, that we have decided not to use it for the foreseeable future. I’m sorry if this has inconvenienced you but would recommend either the lambskin or cowhide as much better alternatives.

Regards Gerry

Well, suffice it to say I'm not getting a Wested at this time. I do not want lambskin nor the cowhide. Oh well, perhaps they will get things back on track by the new year so I can have it before the QM Event.

Cheers,
Jeff

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:37 pm

That is bad news!

Strangely enough, I called Wested today to enquire about MY authentic goat, they said it would be a further 14 days! That's a pretty long wait considering my order has been with them for 23 days already, but they said it was the build-up to the Christmas rush.

They did not mention any problems with quality control, so I am now officially worried. I don't want a below-par goat jacket, I would rather cancel my order if that is the case.

I will ring Wested again in the morning and find out what the score is.

Al.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:41 pm

Well, that begs to have the question asked...

... is Cowhide a better alternitive then Goat?

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:45 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote:Well, that begs to have the question asked...

... is Cowhide a better alternitive then Goat?

I have the Wested cowhide. It's smooth, very soft. However, it is heavy and very warm.

-Sergei

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:47 pm

Depends on what you define as 'better'. If you're talking in terms of tough, it's the next step down. If you're talking in terms of a quality leather, then no, the lambskin is the best in quality, and is fine for everything but the rough and tumble type stuff. I've owned both, and they've both served me well, but the cowhide is more limited (in my opinion) in terms of temperature use. It gets to warm to wear for me as the temps go up, opposed to the goatskin. I can usually stand the goatskin in the low 70's, where the cowhide has to come off in the mid 60's. It's still tough as iron....not equal to goatskin, but can take a lot of abuse where the lambskin really can't. Regards. Michaelson

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:47 pm

Is the cowhide durable?

EDIT: My question has just been answered above - Michaelson, quick off the draw!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:51 pm

ob1al wrote:Is the cowhide durable?

EDIT: My question has just been answered above - Michaelson, quick off the draw!

The labs rank the following leathers from higher to lower in durability:
- Kangaroo, Goat, Deer, Horse, Cow, and then Lamb is way at the bottom

Jeff,
I wouldn't give up on the cow. The lambtouch cowhide has got a nice drape to it.

-Sergei

Harry Steele · Post by **Harry Steele** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:56 pm

Does Gerry's response refer to just the authentic color goatskin or all current goatskin (dark brown, for example) from Wested?

Cheers,
Harry

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Harry, my understanding is that the email refers only to the authentic goat.

As I say, I will be speaking direct to Wested first thing (it's 8 pm here) and should know more then - I will post to this forum soon after speaking to them.

Al.

pinder91 · Post by **pinder91** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:12 pm

i ordered a goat on the 13th of september. however, i haven't had an e-mail saying that there was anything wrong, so i'm expecting to see a goat show up sometime this week. i wonder what the deal is.

Post by **Mike** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:28 pm

I wouldn't fret too much over the availability of the authentic goat. I'm sure it's just a set back until they get skins in that meet their standards. The same thing happend with me and my authentic lamb in the spring. They kept sending back skins until they got it right. I'd give them a month or so and inquire again.

Mike

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:44 pm

I asked Peter about authentic Goat very early in October and his response was;
"Yes, you can order your jacket in Authentic Goatskin which is a far tougher hide and great for winter and the current turnaround time is still 21 days but we are getting very near (next week) to 28 days because of Christmas pressure".

No hint of anything wrong. Maybe it just came up?

Gobler · Post by **Gobler** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:04 pm

I indeed ask about the authentic goat. In fact I asked for a sample to be sent so perhaps it was something that is very recent. Peter, if you read this post, maybe you can clear up our concerns.

Cheers,
Jeff

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:19 pm

I think it would be pretty neat with some sort of chart or the likes with the different hides comparing durability, in what temperature ranges they are comfortable to wear, how to treat them and such. Maybe comparing both Wested and FS? I guess I'm just lazy, I know the info is out there but I think it would be a pretty cool thing to look at when deciding what jacket to get.
I think I'm getting a bit closer to ordering a jacket myself.
Just a som thoughts from the bag guy.

Regards,
Swindiana

junior · Post by **junior** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:29 pm

Sergei,

You forgot about elephant skin. It is the most durable. My elephant Indy jacket from Earsted should be here any day.

junior

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:45 pm

I think they have a longer lead time at the moment.

I ordered my new cowhide on the 20th of September and it was supposed to be ready in 21 days. However, I emailed them yesterday to ask about a modification and got a 'sure no problem' response, so the jacket wasn't finished yet.

Hey, I'm happy they can do my modification, so the longer wait time ain't bothering me

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:47 am

Ok, here's the story.

I had a fairly long conversation with Gerry at Wested.

There is a major problem with the quality of the current authentic goat hide. The hide is so poor that they are not prepared to cut it, as they believe it would provide an inferior product to the customer, which I respect.

Therefore, no new orders will be taken in the authentic goat and as I undertand it all current auth. goat orders are also in question.

My advice to any of you waiting for an authentic goat is to contact Wested ASAP.

My own order has now been changed to the cowhide and will be produced shortly.

The original goat is still available - however, I chose the cowhide on the advice of Wested.

Wested are also currently bogged-down with a mass of orders, more this year than ever before, possibly due to the release of the DVD's, causing a much longer production time than usual.

Wested are uncertain at this point whether the authentic goat will be produced at all in the future. The original goat will still be available.

Regards,

Al.

PS - I am advised that the Cowhide is so tough it could be dragged behind a truck from here to Brighton!

So I guess it will do the job for me, although the colour is a bit darker I believe?

Sergei - do you have any pics of your Wested cowhide to whet my appetite?

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:18 am

So there's authentic goat and original goat?

indy_den · Post by **indy_den** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 am

What's wrong with the original dark brown goat? I thought that is a good choice of leather to go with. Why's Wested recommending Cowhide instead?

Have anyone read this article on The Age, an australian news site:

The best reference site - www.indygear.com - revealed the secret that had been eluding me for 20 years. Like many an American icon (Bob Hope and Cary Grant spring to mind) the genuine jacket actually came from Britain. It had been manufactured by a man named Peter Botwright, a film costumer who runs Wested Leather Co in Middlesex. I rang him up.

"I made 48 jackets for the three Indiana Jones films," Botwright's cheery voice informed me. "The design was created for the film. I've still got the original patterns. Jackets were made for stunt men and stand-ins too. You need lots of everything in a film. Harrison destroyed five jackets during the chase scene with the truck in Raiders," he explained. I found myself giggling like a schoolgirl.

Botwright conceded that his jacket had inspired a million rip-offs. There was one thing I had to know. "What size did ... Harrison wear?" I asked breathlessly.

"Forty regular. For the film they were made from lambskin and aged using sand paper, bleach and a wire brush, but I wouldn't recommend that," Botwright said with a chuckle. "I can do you one in butter soft lambskin but I'd recommend goatskin for durability." Botwright told me he had sold "countless" Indy jackets to people all over the world. "I could say they have become a symbol for adventure," he said, then added, "but really, they look good."

I know mine does. Yep, I shelled out just under $500 for a goatskin jacket.

Got it from http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/ ... 34888.html

Post by **Mike** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 am

Renderking Fisk wrote:So there's authentic goat and original goat?

Yep. The original goat is darker in color, like the original lamb. The authentic goat was made to match the authentic lamb which was matched to a production jacket that Peter found in storage during the move of his shop.

Mike

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:45 am

ob1al wrote:Ok, ..

Sergei - do you have any pics of your Wested cowhide to whet my appetite?

Here are couple snaps of my New Hide, which is the cowhide. Overall it's dark and rather shiny. Not as grainy as the goat.

-Sergei

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:50 pm

Indiana-sith wrote:Sergei,

Is that the lambtouch cowhide you are wearing????

No, that is the newhide. The cowhide comes in 3 flavors:
- new cowhide
- lambtouch cowhide
- predistressed cowhide

-Sergei

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:58 pm

Sergei, thank you for the pics - that's a great lookin' jacket! Can't wait to get mine now! It is noticably darker than the "authentic brown", kinda looks like the opening scenes in raiders I think! By the way, is that a LC style you are wearing?

Those ARE some nice lookin' whips too, by the by.....

Indy-den wrote: What's wrong with the original dark brown goat? I thought that is a good choice of leather to go with. Why's Wested recommending Cowhide instead?

I automatically considered the 'original goat' (to coin a phrase...

)as next best thing but Gerry himself steered me to the cowhide. In his opinion, the cowhide is possibly TOUGHER than the goat. Controversial, I know, and it doesn't add up to the usual "which is toughest" debate, but that was his considered opinion non-the-less. That's why I went for the dark-brown cowhide, plus it's ability to distress well.

It IS unfortunate about the authentic goat, but Gerry surely knows his own product and has offered to accept complete responsibility if the cowhide doesn't live up to my expectations.

Regards,

Al

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:18 pm

Correction...goat is tougher than cowhide, and nothing will change that. Gerry (and originally Peter) didn't LIKE to work with goatskin BECAUSE it's so tough to work with in terms of cutting and sewing. THAT' S why they prefer you order cowhide. Peter originally refused to even consider goatskin, period. When the FS Expedition came out, he changed his mind and the original goat came out the door. He then spec'd the authentic goat from this past Spring, and the rest is history. If you'll read the interview above, Peter personally and publically recommended his goatskin as the toughest, and raved about how good a hide it was publically and privately, so this change in the middle of the stream in recommendation says to me that they're having source problems, and want folks to move BACK to the cowhide. Like I said, Gerry never was happy with the goatskin acquisition due to it's difficult nature and physical toughness. I'm sorry to see they're doing this again. I thought that was all settled. Looks like we're sliding backwards. Regards. Michaelson

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:28 pm

Well Michaelson, look on the bright side, using my Stock metaphor.

IndyJacet Co's stock has gone up 10 bucks. Then it slides back 2 bucks. We are still up 8 bucks!

In other words, at least now we can GET indy jackets, and a LOT of variety in them from various dealers too.

But heck, leave it to me to preach to the choir

It is a shame about the Goat, but I think it's a good representation of the care that Wested has of it's customers--not selling something that is not going to meet thier standards. That's a rare thing these days.

Regards,

Farn

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:33 pm

Interesting.

Michaelson, I value your opinion on this matter and thank you for that insight.

I wonder, then, if there is a problem not only with the authentic goat but with goat period? I wonder if this 'batch' is from the same source as the 'original' goat? Bearing in mind that the leather is not up to scatch, this might also explain the cowhide recommendation?

Well, all things considered, I think I will stick with the cowhide anyway. The pics above look great, and no doubt it will be tough enough for my uses and will naturally distress very well, over time.

Regards,

Al.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:38 pm

Having fought in the trenches along side _ about this in years past, along with other battles regarding the advancement of our gear offerings, I'll just keep my thoughts to myself. Regards. Michaelson

Gobler · Post by **Gobler** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:24 pm

Well darn, I never ment to be the bearer of bad news so many times. This is my concern, I chose the authentic goat for two reasons. One, it's the color of the film jacket and two, it is more durable then the lambskin. I really wanted the color so now what do I do? What are my options? Can I get the color from FS or US Wings? It would figure..

Not so cheery,
Jeff

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:30 pm

So is it only the AUTHENTIC goat under question as to its future or are they saying the original (darker) goat is in question too?

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:31 pm

Michealson, I would rather you would share you're thoughts.

Would you recomend folks go with the Original Goat or Cow? [And do they have the Original Goat but not the "Authentic Goat?"]

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:37 pm

Wow looks like I finally broke down and bought my jackets at the right time. I got my auth. lambskin this summer and at the same time Cabinetman ordered his authentic goat, lucky for me his raiders Auth. goat didn't fit him so I got it and it fits me perfect. I have to admit that of the two jackets I wear the goat more often. I just feel I have to baby the lamb too much and end up walking around paranoid that someone might snag it or something. I've had various cowhide jackets and none were even close to being able to take the abuse this goat has already endured, and it still looks like it did the day I got it. Hopefully the skin problem will be worked out soon, cause I was thinking of ordering a LC goat for my own X-mas present.

Lindiana

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:45 pm

Gerry would rather all goat be eliminated completely, due to it's difficulty to work with due to it's tough nature, and took that stand when they were first approached about offering it. Of course, THAT'S why we worked so long and hard to convince them to pick it up as an option, as this was the material Indyfans were wanting, and FS was MORE than happy to come up with the Expedition to fill that void that Wested didn't want. To say the day that Peter announced the offering of a goatskin jacket was a HUGE day for me to read would be an understatement. I was elated! Their source, as I recall, was that the standard goat was British sourced, and the newer authentic was Italian sourced. I could accept the problem of it not being available due to a bad batch, and that they were waiting for a new and better batch to fill the orders, but to state they're dropping the entire line I find EXTREMELY odd, as Peter was the one who proudly, and on his own, found, outsourced and announced the authentic goatskin from Italy, and as you read in the interview, has been quite proud of it, as well as his standard goatskin. If Gerry is now calling the shots, I guess second best is better than none, and that would be the cowhide. It's a sad day for me to read that all the work accomplished in years past has been undone. I guess FS is about to get a boost in sales of seal brown goatskin, and if that's the case due to this business decision of Gerry, more power to them, as he's completely misreading the wants of the fans he's making jackets for. Regards. Michaelson

Chamorro · Post by **Chamorro** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:15 pm

I'm sure Dave will be happy to take up the slack too. I've just oredered a new goatskin jacket from Flightsuits. A russet A-2. Should be here in a couple of weeks.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:32 pm

Michaelson -

I realise that, from what you write, you and others on this forum have fought long and hard to ensure the highest quality, best products are available to me and others like me, and offer my thanks for that.

I must point out that Gerry did NOT entirely dismiss the future resourcing of the authentic goat. I asked him that specific question i.e. "Will you be looking for other sources?" and his answer was something like "we are not sure at the moment", not an absolute negative.

The 'original goat', to my knowledge, is still available. At no point have Wested indicated that the 'original goat' will cease production.

Reading between the lines, I believe that there may be more to this story than meets the eye and we (the consumer) may see something interesting develop in the weeks ahead, with some luck.

Best regards,

Alan

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:54 pm

I truly hope so, and with that remove myself from this conversation, as there is indeed a LOT of past history and experiences that are best left unsaid. High regards. Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:29 pm

I've always heard that when dealing with Wested, it is always best to deal with Peter directly. That's what I've always done. I've never had ant direct dealings with Gerry, but you might want to hear directly from the horse’s mouth about the goat (not that I’m calling Peter a horse). Cheers

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:48 pm

Hi,

I have been lurking on this forum for the last couple of months and feel it is time to post... so here goes.

I was over at Wested today to finalise some alterations to my authentic lambskin (which I am very pleased with).

While I was there I mentioned this thread to Gerry and Peter and they showed me the issue with the authentic goat.

The problem seems to have been with the dying process. Each skiin has a faint discoloration along the central axis (along the spine ) of the skin.

[The closest comparison I can make is when your mum used to iron your jeans the wrong way and you would get that lighter line along the front]

Each skin is effectively unusable for the big panels on a jacket (front left and right and the back). If they were to use them the customer would undoubtably send the jacket back.

Wested have a deserved reputation for quality, and sending out a jacket with a vertical discoloured line on it would tarnish this reputation. Rather than risk this, they deciided to stop sending any out.

I believe that they are currently trying to source another batch of the authentic goat - but they have alot of skins they cannot use. I think this shows the commitment to quality - these hides were specially dyed for Wested and cannot be returned - they would rather lose on this than compromise quality.

While I was there I also looked over a new cowhide jacket and can recommend it to anyone who wants a high quality durable jacket. the hide is excellent, with a nice grain and a great suppleness. It really is very, very nice - I am going to order one for myself (early Christmas present).

I cannot praise the service Wested provide highly enough - I have never come across customer service like it. They are really in a league of their own.

This post was merely to set the record straight - I have no connection to Wested (other than as a satisfied customer) - so please take this post in the spirit it is intended.

Cheers
Cyclops

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:54 pm

Thank you very much for taking the time to do that, as well as post your findings! MUCH appreciated!! High regards. Michaelson

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:07 pm

While I was there I also looked over a new cowhide jacket and can recommend it to anyone who wants a high quality durable jacket. the hide is excellent, with a nice grain and a great suppleness. It really is very, very nice - I am going to order one for myself (early Christmas present).

I wonder if that was mine!?
(it should be about finished)

Well I can pretend....

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:59 pm

I've always liked Wested Cowhide leather, whether it was regular or the lambtouch. My only criticism would be that they're both a bit dark dark (which doesn't matter to me) for an Indy fan. The dark color is nice nonetheless. Cheers

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:10 pm

Gobler wrote:Well darn, I never ment to be the bearer of bad news so many times. This is my concern, I chose the authentic goat for two reasons. One, it's the color of the film jacket and two, it is more durable then the lambskin. I really wanted the color so now what do I do? What are my options? Can I get the color from FS or US Wings? It would figure..

Not so cheery,
Jeff

You'll find the Wings goat to be dark (and buttery soft!) and the FS goat can be either seal or dark seal. It sounds like you're wanting the authentic color so a regular seal colored chrome-tanned goatskin from FS would probably be your best bet. Just remember that it's a tad more expensive than a Wested Indy jacket.

I.J.

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:32 pm

So is this goat problem for new orders or people who have ordered and are currently still waiting?

A goat jacket will probably be good around the end of October(which is when mine is suppose to be done)

Wested Goat a no go!

Wested Goat a no go!

Set the record straight