The turn is...ugly

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:48 pm

I got my Henry and I bashed it in Raiders style. It's my first turned hat, since I've only had a DP so far (a TOD/LC hybrid).

I found it very nice, when placed on my head (the swooped brim and all), but I noticed that the hat appears quite ugly, when it's not worn: it looks so asymmetric and distorted, when seen from above

you look at it and think "hey, there's something wrong".

am I the only one who thinks that the turn is someway ugly (for lack of a better word)?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:54 pm

I've never cared for it, and never request it when I get a new hat. Sometimes I get it regardless

, but I've never been a fan.

Regards !Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:57 pm

I think I know what you mean. When you lay your hat on the table flat. You look down on it and the brim is out of whack. There is a simple solution. Don't look at you hat so hard.

All joking aside. It is a little weird but part of the turn. No one but you will notice it. As long as the hat looks good when wearing it. It's a quirk that part of the hat.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:00 pm

BendingOak wrote:There is a simple solution. Don't look at you hat so hard.

it's not that simple! I've owned a DP so far: can you imagine my reaction when I finally had a Henry for a comparison?

really, I tought my DP was not that good, but I liked it nevertheless...but now I really can't stand the thought of wearing it

and I can't help staring at my Henry

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:11 pm

Can you post a pic or two. I have a feeling we are not talking about the same thing.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:25 pm

yes, the turn makes the hat ugly......but is indeed SA and gives it a characteristic of its own. all my hats that are turned, i find, i am constantly fiddling with the brim, crown, creases, pinches etc as it takes it forever to look right. you couple that with the fact that your hat looks good only from about 6 feet from a mirror (as that is how we are viewing the film hat most of the time), makes for a very difficult hat to be pleased with in the end.

the center crease takes a lot of fiddling as when the hat is turned, one of the rear camel humps will always be bigger than the other one. this becomes more prominent as you stray away from long oval heads like fords to regular and round oval heads, imo. its funny that this subject came up because i just reblocked my hat and been playing with it for the better part of the week. drove my wife nuts on how much time i was spending with it

the turned raiders hat loos good when she's flopped onto the table with the non-stiffened brim laying flat so none of the contortions can be seen. most of us have stiffener in our hats and can't do that easily so that's why it looks 'wierd' or 'ugly'

i found out that doing a 'nice' crease job on a turned hat is extremely difficult.......you gotta get ugly on it. my center crease has the nice SOC bulge in the middle of the dent which gives it alot of character. also, the non-bow side pinch should be fatter than the bow side. the non-bow side side dent will always be deeper as there is more hat to push in once it is turned. it's very difficult to get a nice deep channel crease on the bow side.

now, you can get away with all this by bashing the crown on center making it nice and symettrical and trying to steam the swoop into the brim.....quite difficult to get it right and especially hard to take knowing that you can just turn the hat and viola!!!!

a no turn hat is nice and dressy and that's what i'm gonna shoot for on my next incarnation of the raiders hat ;-)

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:43 pm

Michaelson - GREAT avatar! Cleese is easily the funniest of the Python clan and this was one of the best sketches. I always laugh at the way he moves. He uses this tecnique again in the Fawlty Towers sketch The Germans. Classic.

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:46 pm

OK, I think it's time....

;0

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:33 pm

The inside of the crown looks odd and distorted on a turned at as well. But it just looks so darn cool with it on.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:17 am

Of course something doesn't look right! It's crooked!!!

I guess, when it come to a Raiders hat, authenticity requires throwing all concerns about good fashion sense out the window and rolling with it. They do look better on the head than off, though. The turn is not for everybody. Heck, it doesn't even WORK on everybody. But you know what? Sneakers with a tuxedo is a bad idea, too, but people do it. In public. On TV. By choice! A crooked hat is far from the worst you could be wearing. ;-)

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:04 am

(Psst! The turn wasn't on all the hero hats in Raiders, so it's still accurate without the turn! ;-) )

Wolfwood · Post by **Wolfwood** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:04 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:The turn is not for everybody. Heck, it doesn't even WORK on everybody.

It works on a surprisingly few people, actually. However, it is not that much different from the classic Hollywood fedora shape, which I also find a bit strange:

I hope the image shows...

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:14 pm

I think the 'turn' happened by accident. If you put your hat on your head a certain way, you can naturally get a swoop out of it.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:37 pm

I like the turn in terms of screen accuracy of the costume hat but I would not want to wear a personal fedora in this way. My main problem with it is that some people take it to extremes with one side of the brim being completely straight and the other side with a major swoop. To me, this looks a bit rediculous.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:02 pm

The term “turned” is a euphemism for crooked. The “crooked” hat in Raiders was a natural quirk that happened because of the felt type and Ford’s head shape. I have to admit that I’ve seen some hats that looked ridicules (to me) where this effect was artificially achieved for looks. Most of the scenes in the movie where you get the crooked hat were action scenes anyway. Also the Raiders hat undoubtedly had to be recreased frequently. Distortion was bound to happen.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:02 pm

I think the turn is beautiful!! It was one of the factors that attracted me to it in the first place, although I had no clue at the time that was turned. I just kniew it looked different from the fedoras I was familiar with.

Back in the old days, some men did little things to their hats to make them look a bit different from others. So, it fits with the era.

For me, I love the turned hat. Makes it distinctive, and very Indyish. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:08 pm

That's one of the few things you and I always agreed to disagree about, Steve!

;-)

Happy New Year, by the way!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:27 pm

HOLD THE PHONE! What in the heck is "The Turn?"

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:35 pm

I thought everyone knew what the 'turn' was all about, Condor man? We've got to get you well versed and up to speed on these important issues of the day! ;-)

A slight turn to the right of center of the fedora so that the brim is not symetrical, has a 'swoop' in it...ie, one side is higher than the other, to replicate the idol grab sequence from Raiders.

Mississippi Jones · Post by **Mississippi Jones** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:05 pm

Personally, I think the turn gives the hat personality. BUT, if it's on the wrong person, then it does look pretty bad. You should bash your hat to where it looks good on you..... unless you want a correct "Raiders" hat for display. But if you want to wear a hat every day out in public, then "turn" or no "turn" bash your hat until it is becoming of you.

Let's face it, the Raiders bash (turn and all) is not becoming on all of us. Some of us look better with the TOD, or LC, or KOTCS bash.... whether we like it or not.

But, the turn looks good to me, b/c it gives the hat personality.... especially if it's on the right head..... like Mr. Fords.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:11 pm

It doesn't work on every head shape either! You can duplicate the same 'look' if you pull a round hat over a long oval head. Perfect 'swoop' everytime, if that's what you're after.

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:31 pm

My best friend is a big fedora fan as well. I went to his house the other day and he was wearing a fur felt Bailey's and I noticed that he had poped out the creases and turned the hat and recreased it. Its not only Indy fans that like the turn. He told me "It gives the hat personality." Yup, it sure does.

Dave

Mississippi Jones · Post by **Mississippi Jones** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:42 pm

Yes, the wrong head shape makes all the difference. And I'll be honest.... I don't think even Harrison himself TODAY could pull off the "Raiders" fedora. I think the "Raiders" bash (along with the turn) only looks right on a person who is somewhat skinny and long. Somebody who is real "filled out" in the face, probably couldn't pull it off.

I was watching TOD and LC, and noticed that with Harrison gaining weight and getting fuller cheeks and jaw, he looked proper in the hats he wore in those movies. But with him being skinny in Raiders, the turn and bash looked appropriate. Now I could be wrong and I hope this doesn't start a controversy....

but that's just my own opinion.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:54 pm

Not meaning to be argumentative, Mississippi Jones, but I believe Ford's face was actually at its thinnest in TOD. But I agree with your general point.

Mississippi Jones · Post by **Mississippi Jones** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:07 pm

Here, here. ;-)

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:59 am

Umh, I disagree. I'm quite chubby (not to say fat

) but the Raiders bash actually fits on my face well.

I suppose there is not a specific or even generic rule about what kind of bash or crown height/shape fits on a certain kind of head/face

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:47 am

In the case of my post, I was talking about head/skull shape, not how thin or 'chubby' one may be. It's the shape of the skull that will determine what a hat will do, depending on the shape of the hat block. A long oval blocked hat on a long oval head will not do the 'swoop', but a round hat on a long oval shaped head will...without the turn.

If you have a long oval shaped hat on a long oval head, then turn the hat slightly to force the oval to be slightly elongated, you get the swoop. That's what is being done when the hat is turned, and was done by Ford during Raiders to make the hat fit more snuggly on his head during action scenes.

Ford's head is a long oval shape. That will never change, regardless of his weight gain or loss.

Regard! Michaelson

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:08 am

I think that my head is fairly round (if not fairly large

). How does one go about determining if you are a round, long oval, etc. I would think this would help a lot in getting custom made hats.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:27 pm

...it's beautiful!

...sorry! Wrong thread!

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:33 pm

The warped brim often achieved by the turn (or at least attempted) will look ok on any face shape, as long as the hat dimensions are right for the face. The mistake many make is that they insist on screen accurate crown and brim measurements without regard for what looks good on them. So, turn or no turn, the wrong hat is and always will be the wrong hat.

But as to how the turn actually works (or the round-on-LO trick); What Michaelson said. It's all about how un-round your baseball is from a bird's eye POV.

Mississippi Jones · Post by **Mississippi Jones** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:09 pm

Yes, what Michaelson said. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. But the shape of your head does determine what hat shape looks good on you. I don't necessarilly mean a thick or thin face exactly but the shape of the jaw line and well......what Michaelson said!!!!

Wolfwood · Post by **Wolfwood** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:54 am

Yup, the shape of the face has a lot to do with what looks good on you. There's an article on a certain manly site about this very topic:

http://artofmanliness.com/2008/05/28/th ... -ugly-mug/

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:47 am

crismans wrote:I think that my head is fairly round (if not fairly large ). How does one go about determining if you are a round, long oval, etc. I would think this would help a lot in getting custom made hats.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm

That's one of the few things you and I always agreed to disagree about, Steve!

Happy New Year, by the way!

Yes indeed. You and Rick5150 love symetrical hats. And that is burned in my brain, so I never need to ask when I send you guys hats.

For me, I turn all of my hats, as I just love the intrepid look. Wait, perhaps that is not the right word.

The key is to put the hat on, open crown, and then just turn the mimimum amount to get the brim to warp. Don't over do it. A longer head requires just a little turn, a regular oval, a bit more, and forget about a round oval head warping the brim. So, you have to have the right head shape for this to work.

In Michaelson's case, his head is long oval, so a regular oval hat will warp his brim a bit anyways, and give him a bit of a swoop as seen from the non bow side of the hat. Rick5150 too has a long oval head.

I don't turn my own hats very much, just enough to get a bit of a warp. Too much and you get too much of a good thing.

Once thing we all have to face. Unless your head and facial shape is exactly like Ford's, don't expect any brand of hat to look just like his. He is part of the reason the hats look the way they do. The rest of us just have to get to like our "own look" and adjust the brim to fit the crown and facial shape. His specs won't necessarily work on all of us. I know it's a tough pill to swallow, but I think it's a fact. Fedora

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:01 pm

The way that I liked to draw attention to my hats (and it’s pretty common) was to twist one side of the brim up and have the other much lower. The effect is illustrated in the movie “Hanibal”. Anthony Hopkins is wearing a really crummy panama hat, but the effect is really nice. It works well on traditional fedoras, not so well on an Indiana Jones hat.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:04 pm

Fedora wrote:
That's one of the few things you and I always agreed to disagree about, Steve!

Happy New Year, by the way!

Yes indeed. You and Rick5150 love symetrical hats. And that is burned in my brain, so I never need to ask when I send you guys hats.

Fedora

LOL!! Yep, you've made a few for me over the past decade, haven't you?

;-)

HIGH regards! Michaelson

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:35 pm

When I see the turned hats on folks, it almost always looks "off". I think that the turn is exaggerated too much on most hats or that most folks do not have the facial shape or head shape to support the look.

I have had a few hats that were turned but most people (non-Indy fans) mistake 'character' for a defect in the manufacture of the hat as in "Why does one side look different?" It is not like wearing your baseball cap sideways or backwards like an 8-year old.

Not that it matters, but when I look at some of my hiking photos, I am wearing the hat a bit crooked anyways. Usually slightly to my right. It starts out straight, but after taking it off to wipe my brow, having it knocked off by a branch, or having the wind take it away for a while it inevitably winds up turned a bit when I put it back on.

Or it may simply be that the gravitational field created by my gigantic nose causes the hat to be slightly pulled to one side, I am not sure.

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:55 pm

Not bash-turned, but I turn my hats when driving my convertible. About 10-15 degrees to make it stay on at hiway speeds. Brim warps and swoops just like the pics from Raiders.

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:11 pm

It has been my experience that most hats get some type of turn in it no matter how hard you try to avoid it. I have tried for years put my hat on stright to avoid warping the brim (now this is a George Strait crease cowboy hat mind you and cowyboys are notorious for messing with the brim until they get it just perfect and than heaven help the person who touches it - hence always setting a hat upsode down). Anyway it has been no use. My hat always ends up a little to the left (I am left-handed.
I say just let it happen naturally. If you wear it enough it will get a turn that is right for you. I have the trick is to put your hat on without a mirror so you don't fiddle with it.

My 2 cents.

Everyone's got great hats BTW.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:05 pm

Piker wrote:
crismans wrote:I think that my head is fairly round (if not fairly large ). How does one go about determining if you are a round, long oval, etc. I would think this would help a lot in getting custom made hats.

Oh goody, a machine! Now I can forego my phrenology studies! ;-)

Barcelona Jones · Post by **Barcelona Jones** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:25 pm

whipcracker wrote:It has been my experience that most hats get some type of turn in it no matter how hard you try to avoid it. I have tried for years put my hat on stright to avoid warping the brim (now this is a George Strait crease cowboy hat mind you and cowyboys are notorious for messing with the brim until they get it just perfect and than heaven help the person who touches it - hence always setting a hat upsode down). Anyway it has been no use. My hat always ends up a little to the left (I am left-handed.
I say just let it happen naturally. If you wear it enough it will get a turn that is right for you. I have the trick is to put your hat on without a mirror so you don't fiddle with it.

My 2 cents.

Everyone's got great hats BTW.

Hi, I agree putting your hat on perfectly centered can be difficult unless you do so in front of a mirror. But, anyway, this is not the same as "the turn". With "the turn", first you apply the "turn", and then you crease the hat, once it is off center. From the front, the hat looks centered if you look at the crown; but because it is off-center, the brim acquires a warp.

This said, I have seen a couple of vintage hats that did have the "turn". Maybe this happened because the owner or shop employee creased it off-center inadvertently, and it remained so shaped; or it was deliberately done, either by needs of adjusting the size, or for whatever reason. I do not know. But this may be encountered.

About the qualities of "the turn"... well, I very recently received my first true "Indy" hat; with it, I decided to go for the "full monty" Indy hat and I ordered a "Raiders" style complete with turn; I have already plenty of "conventional" non-Indy fedoras.

Regards!

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:06 pm

for my next hat that i make, i am thinking of creasing the crown on centre, installing the ribbon 'turned' and trying to steam the brim swoop in. i'm not sure as of yet as i know how difficult it is to put in an artifical brim warp. the hat bodies that i have coming in are western bodies which have plenty of stiffener in them so it may be easier to dry bash the brim swoop and then steam it to freeze it.........still contemplating. a turned hat sits funny for a while as there is force on the oblique angles of your head. also, the bash of the crown is so untidy to do now that you are creasing the oval asymetrical.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:56 pm

Barcelona Jones wrote:Hi, I agree putting your hat on perfectly centered can be difficult unless you do so in front of a mirror. But, anyway, this is not the same as "the turn". With "the turn", first you apply the "turn", and then you crease the hat, once it is off center. From the front, the hat looks centered if you look at the crown; but because it is off-center, the brim acquires a warp.

But if you think about it, if you do not put your hat on in front of a mirror and wear it crooked, you will get a more screen-accurate look without the turn.

With the turn, when the hat is worn off-center, the pinch will not be lined up and the brim will not have that characteristic warp.

With out the turn, when the hat is worn off center, the pinch will not be lined up, but the brim will have some degree of the warp many have come to love.

I always wear my hats by "feel" and what feels the most comfortable is the hat being worn without twisting it. I feels irritating when it is cocked a little, as if it is not seated properly for my head. I wear them for hours on end in all weather and comfort is paramount to looks.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:14 pm

I wear them for hours on end in all weather and comfort is paramount to looks.

Hear hear, and amen!

HIGH regard! Michaelson

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:17 pm

Well, when you look like I do, there is only so much you can aim for with looks. I let the hat speak for itself.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:47 pm

I was talking to our staff librarian here at the University, and she said asked a friend of hers who lived down the road from me if she knew me.

She said she didn't recognize my name, but if she meant the guy who drove the antique car, has the handlebar moustache, and wears a fedora, yes...she knew who I was.

So, now I know the order of how folks recognize me now....car, moustache, THEN hat.

Regards! Michaelson

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 pm

You're officially the stuff of legend now, Michaelson.

-M

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:39 pm

...yeah, in my own mind, maybe...

Regards! Michaelson

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:41 pm

I kinda like the turn from front view. It is one of the more distinctive features that sets apart an almost Indy fedora from one that really has that unique look to it. Yeah, it is asymmetrical, but tilting your hat also lends a kind of asymmetrical quality. I don't know it just seems to lend another layer of detail and style to me. It makes it look less like you have at top hat on your head. I think it probably worked better on Harrison Ford that it would for most people.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:09 pm

I agree bigrex, the "turn" is the most appealing thing about my own hat.I prefer the asymetric look,but that's just me.Ugly?? No way.

~raider 57