TOD Hat same as Raiders?

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:31 pm

I'm going to throw this out there, even though I'm risking getting singed by some serious blowback. I don't know why I didn't notice this before, as I've seen this series of photos before, but in doing some research for another topic I decided to test a wild theory.

Here's the end of the famous "bridge scene" in TOD. Indy's hat has had the center crease blown out, and is facing us in nearly a clear front-on view. With this angle, I think I'm able to show that the TOD hat was in fact a 5 1/2" crown, just like the Raiders hat!

I realize it's a bit short of 5 1/2" here, but you have to account for the fact that there is still some crease in the hat, taking it down a bit, and once a hat is heavily creased, it won't go back to it's full open-crown height. Given that, I think it's safe to say this was originally a 5 1/2" open crown, and it is definitely not a 5" open crown. I also added the blue side lines there to emphasize the other thing I noticed, that this hat doesn't appear tapered at all - pretty straight sides there, wouldn't you say?

As I mentioned in another thread, Desi of ScreenUsed sold a TOD hat which he pretty convincingly shows is the bridge hat in this scene and also the same one throughout most of the movie, including the infamous "cockpit scene!"
See http://screenused.com/index.cfm?section ... ndyhat.cfm

Ok, I'm going to duck back behind my Plymouth now!

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:51 pm

This could well be possible as if this is a HJ and not a Stetson...and I believe Fedora has said in the past that there are times in Last Crusade where he himself can see hats with a similar shape to the raiders block...and also the change in felt...it's quite possible to suggest that like crusade, HJ has used the older Poet block shape that was used in Raiders in Temple. Like crusade this block shape has slipped in...but it relies a lot on if's and but's lol

....good eye though

Cheers

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:56 pm

the brims in TOD and LC look to be 2 3/4" x 2 1/2" (some were shorter in LC.....some in TOD don't even look dimensionally cut

). i'm not sure, just going with what i see.

alot of scenes in raiders you can easily speculate that the brims were 2 7/8" x 2 5/8".

i've cut my brims to 2 3/4" x 2 1/2" and from what i've created so far....it looks too short to be a true raiders. my next one will be the bigger dimension.

its funny as i cut my very first hat using the larger dimension and thought it was too huge. i went down to 2 3/4" x 2 1/2" but then it looked too short........then i realized that my first hats were beaver. maybe the rabbits shrink up just a hair (no punn intended)

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:58 pm

I've always thought that the suspension bridge hat was strikingly similar to the Raiders hat. I really don't know why so many folks here at COW hate the Temple fedora so much, most of them are fairly tall and, for the most part, untapered. This hat shows up in a number of scenes and is one of my favorites. I'd put it before any of the Crusade hats.

Dave

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:03 pm

Why not?
Especially when you consider all the hemming and hawing over the "mystery block" from Raiders and maybe there was more than one block shape in Raiders and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... It not only seems reasonable, but likely. Likely that even if you throw everyone their respective bone ( Fedora's mystery block, Dutch and his same hat theory, and everyone who falls in between ) and say more than one block was used in Raiders, then this hat would be the same as at least ONE of the hats in Raiders. I can't imagine why it would be hard for people to swallow

.
Of course, it would appear that if you to ardently advance such a theory, you run the risk of being ridiculed for having a dissenting opinion, as recently shown.
BUUUUT... it seems reasonable to me, anyway.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:13 pm

This is a tangent I'm sure but I've always thought this hat bore a strong resemblance to the Raiders hat. It may just because the bash is closer.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:08 pm

Glad to see I'm not the only one who sees this.

Here's further proof of my theory, that perhaps the only real difference between the Raiders hat and the TOD hat is the different creasing:

Take a look at Cole's new AB Henry (hope you don't mind my using your pic as an example, Cole!)

Now this is a Henry! The hat blocked on supposedly a good candidate for the original Raiders block! Now tell me this doesn't look just like a TOD hat - very much like the bridge scene hat.

And why? Because it's creased very deep in the center, with the front of the center crease brought way down in the front, which pushes the side bashes apart and makes those low, shallow camel humps we see in the bridge hat. We all know the Henry makes a great Raiders hat, and here we see it can also be creased to make a TOD-accurate hat. So perhaps the only real difference between Raiders and TOD was the creasing, not the block!

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:32 pm

i'd buy the assumptioni that that hat with ford on the bridge was an unused HJ from raiders.......i wouldn't buy that assumption on any of the other hats in TOD.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:38 pm

It's been speculated before that the plane hat in the beginning of ToD was a leftover Raiders-used hat due to the amount of taper and the condition of it. The bridge hat, however, is often speculated to be a Stetson.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:45 pm

cam anyone post pics of the TOD plane hat before Willie used it as a fan?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:48 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:It's been speculated before that the plane hat in the beginning of ToD was a leftover Raiders-used hat due to the amount of taper and the condition of it. The bridge hat, however, is often speculated to be a Stetson.

i do not believe that speculation. the cockpit hat (desi's) hat has too wide of a ribbon, and the bow work doesn't look like anything from raiders....unless it was redone of course.

i'd be willing to swallow that the cockpit hat was a stetson and the bridge hat was a left over HJ........i wonder if we'd ever find out?

if that is true bink.........then stetson threw away ALOT of money by not selling the bridge hat to the public......there's only so many fans that would buy their garbage stetson temple's......me being one of them.....man, i'm such a sucker!!!!

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:50 pm

BendingOak wrote:cam anyone post pics of the TOD plane hat before Willie used it as a fan?

http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ts/102.jpg

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:53 pm

Look at the size of the center dent. It looks like its caved in. I don't think you can judge this hat by that pics alone.

scot2525 · Post by **scot2525** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:56 pm

Indiana G wrote:
BendingOak wrote:cam anyone post pics of the TOD plane hat before Willie used it as a fan?
http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ts/102.jpg

The felt looks really crappy on that hat. It looks as if it is trying to "pill" up.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:56 pm

there's more at the 'screen used' site.

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:48 pm

The old Stetson adds showed Indy standing at the end of the bridge; this picture -

The actual photograph, of course. Anyway, "Indy's back, and this time he's wearing a Stetson...", or whatever. I'm no legal expert, but I'd think if you were gonna advertise a product via a photo, you'd have to show YOUR product in the photo ( unless you're that left eyeball jacket company that uses Wested pics to shill their jackets

)

Anywho, I'm not saying the bridge scene hat is a Stetson or not, just that one pic in the ads. I'm sure if I sat here all night I'd figure it out, but I'm SURE someone reputable posted a solid back story that had the ToD plane hat being a Herb J. Anybody remember what I'm talking about. The post said they had it on good authority from someone involved in the production that only HJs were seen in front of the camera during production, the plane hat WAS a Herb J, and the only place the Stetson was seen was on the bridge ( in the promo still - possibly in action ). Help me out here, somebody...

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:37 am

I really don't think the bridge hat is a Stetson. It looks too much like an HJ, and a Raiders one at that.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:24 am

I just want to clarify something, so this doesn't get too far off topic or give anyone the wrong idea: I am not saying that the TOD hat was a leftover Raiders hat, or that there is no difference whatsoever between the two (or that one hat or another is an HJ or a Stetson ;-) ), my point was only that the TOD hat and the Raiders hat are basically (key word) the same hats, or type of hats - straight-sided 5 1/2" open crown hats with dimensional brims. I think in the minds of many here (and I think it's even documented here in a sticky) the TOD hat had a lower crown (some even suggesting 4 1/2"!) and had tapered sides. Perhaps that is referring to its creased crown height - if so, I'm taking issue with no need. But I was merely trying to demonstrate that the (main) TOD hat (whoever made it) is "essentially" the same as the Raiders hat. There may very well be small differences in the two blocks, and it may even be possible that the bridge hat is a Stetson, I don't know - all I know is the hat is as tall (open crown) as the Raiders was, and in its normal state (without one side of the back crushed in, or the center dent smashed down 2" or so) it isn't tapered at all.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:54 pm

jasonalun wrote:I just want to clarify something, so this doesn't get too far off topic or give anyone the wrong idea: I am not saying that the TOD hat was a leftover Raiders hat, or that there is no difference whatsoever between the two (or that one hat or another is an HJ or a Stetson ;-) ), my point was only that the TOD hat and the Raiders hat are basically (key word) the same hats, or type of hats - straight-sided 5 1/2" open crown hats with dimensional brims. I think in the minds of many here (and I think it's even documented here in a sticky) the TOD hat had a lower crown (some even suggesting 4 1/2"!) and had tapered sides. Perhaps that is referring to its creased crown height - if so, I'm taking issue with no need. But I was merely trying to demonstrate that the (main) TOD hat (whoever made it) is "essentially" the same as the Raiders hat. There may very well be small differences in the two blocks, and it may even be possible that the bridge hat is a Stetson, I don't know - all I know is the hat is as tall (open crown) as the Raiders was, and in its normal state (without one side of the back crushed in, or the center dent smashed down 2" or so) it isn't tapered at all.

If I ever doubted about that again you just helped me to make up my mind. I believe you're 120% right on that on every point. This is just me and my personal opinion but you have valid points my friend.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:57 pm

Thanks, Erri - glad I could help confirm your ideas. ;-) It was fun doing the research, and it was nice finding out I'm not the only one with these thoughts.