The most SA wested raiders jacket since the film!

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:19 am

aw man..yes your sounding like a teacher

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:20 am

coronado3 wrote:I'm sorry for sounding like an english teacher, but isn't it spelled Y-O-K-E and not Y-O-L-K in this case???? I wasn't sure myself!

Yes it is, but we all know what is meant, right? ;-)

and GREAT looking jacket Holt! goed gedaan man! Please allow Peter to use it for other jackets

;-)

Regards, Geert

Tyrloch · Post by **Tyrloch** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:21 am

C3,

Yup, yoke is the correct spelling, but it's difficult to spell certain words when they have a phonetic twin, like seen & scene. I have a friend that does that all the time -- he even confuses plurals & possessives, and English is not only his first language, but his only one! His fault for cutting so many classes during high school.

At any rate, we all knew what he was referring to, so the spelling doesn't really matter...BTW, Holt -- great jacket! I was going to possibly order a G&B, but if you make your specs public knowledge, I may have to buy a 2nd Wested!! Terrific job with all your research into the details.

~Jace

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:23 am

Well, I am a teacher.... It just happen that I teach art, not english so MY spelling is not the greatest!!

Holt:
I can't wait to see some pics of this jacket after it has had some years and wear on it. It looks 80% raiders right now. It just needs to be beat up a bit!

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:52 am

Wait, so if someone wanted a jacket w/Holt's exact specs, Peter won't make it unless Holt agrees? Is that something like a patent?

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:01 am

Holt, so which is more "SA" .....your jacket or TN Raiders?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:10 am

Holt,
I noticed that a few inches below the yoke on the pleats that your jacket pulls at the same point as in the photo you posted and also in the one below. You can see it clearly here right above the bottom of the frame on the pleat. I often wondered if there was something going on inside the jacket to pull it in this way. Did you ask for anything specific that would do this or is it just how the leather is reacting naturally to how it was constructed?

Peter, if you're reading this...amazing slam-bang-up job you did on this jacket! It captures many of the nuances that have been absent the whole time. If Holt would allow and if I may recommend that this be the standard for your custom Raiders jackets. An off the rack is fine but again, they're missing some of the small nuances we've been looking for all this time. Maybe allow someone to do up a new page on your website illustrating the similarities between this jacket and what we see on screen. This would make it completely clear to the buyer that they are getting a larger collar to match the film jacket and any other differences with the standard, off the rack jackets.

Just a suggestion. Again, amazing looking jacket. I can't wait to get one if Holt, and you would be so gracious.

FordPerfect · Post by **FordPerfect** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:39 am

Likewise -
I'm on my fourth Todd's an great as it is I know something is right when I see it. Congrats, Holt on your rather relentless pursuit of 'the one' and investing in your theories - The results speak for themselves. I read Peter's comments with interest though - I understand seeing as these specs were your personal conclusions you may be protective of them but the end product is so convincing you my have to relent to the demand....!

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:32 pm

I must ask why be protective and not want other people to have the specs?

Certainly it's the result of long, hard work to arrive at this, but I'm sure much assistance was recieved from other members - or at least the benefit from others findings, conclusions, and suprises even if direct questions weren't asked. Wouldn't it benefit everyone to have a chance to take advantage of the success?

jacksdad · Post by **jacksdad** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:00 pm

I hope we can all benfit from this, we will see. If so Thanks in advance Holt you are the man.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:20 pm

[quote="agent5"]Holt,

The irony in this for me is that goatskin is my favorite leather. It makes a good strong, tough jacket that drapes well. However, you can clearly see that the jacket was shrunken lamb in this picture. Not that it matters what anyone wants to have their jacket made out of.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:23 pm

Where do you this so clearly? It's all pretty dark to me. You seem a pretty heavy supporter of stating how screen grabs are not a good tool to determine things yet you seem so sure from this dark and grainy shot of exactly the type of leather used. How so?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:29 pm

agent5 wrote:Where do you this so clearly? It's all pretty dark to me. You seem a pretty heavy supporter of stating how screen grabs are not a good tool to determine things yet you seem so sure from this dark and grainy shot of exactly the type of leather used. How so?

Look at the texture in the pleat. Look at the texture where the arm and back panel meet. Film-stock is not good enough to pick up the detailing of shrunken lamb most of the time. The light has to shine just right for you to see it.

PS- Everything looks different from shot to shot. The jacket looks one way in one shot and another way in another shot. Some of this is caused by different jackets obviously. The key is to be able to take everything collectively and base your observations and opinions on that and not one singular screen grab.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:41 pm

you can clearly see that the jacket was shrunken lamb in this picture

Is it possible this was caused by the distressing done by the costumers? Washing the jacket (causing wrinkles) and then distressing them as they did? I'm just saying that you seem completely convinced off of this one screen grab alone exactly the type of leather used and it seems plausible that there could be other variants at work here to give the texture you're seeing.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:41 pm

That screenshot looks like it could be pebbly goat skin too. All depends on what you want to see.

I'd much rather have a durable goat hide with some natural texture that will comeout with age than lamb any day of the week.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:50 pm

PSBIndy wrote:Wait, so if someone wanted a jacket w/Holt's exact specs, Peter won't make it unless Holt agrees? Is that something like a patent?

Please tell me you're kidding. Even if Peter held a patent to the jacket, there's no way a customer's requested customizations form the subject-matter of a new patent for the customer. Consider the outrageous implications of that.

SD

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Holt has always been really generous with his specs. Although I can't speak for him, I wouldn't think there's a problem.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:03 pm

agent5 wrote:
you can clearly see that the jacket was shrunken lamb in this picture

Is it possible this was caused by the distressing done by the costumers? Washing the jacket (causing wrinkles) and then distressing them as they did? I'm just saying that you seem completely convinced off of this one screen grab alone exactly the type of leather used and it seems plausible that there could be other variants at work here to give the texture you're seeing.

Anything is possible. I'd be crazy to make that statement based on just this screengrab. However, lambskin that has gone through that enzyme process matches what I see better than other leathers. On top of that there are people who’s opinion I respect that say that’s what it was. Tony Novak says that’s what he saw on the jacket he examined. You can take that with a grain of salt since he’s selling jackets obviously (although it would be contrary to what I know about him to lie). But on top of that Lee Keppler says that the “bell hop” jackets that Peter sent him in the mid to late 80’s were made from this type of leather as well. Lee does not sell jackets. He has nothing to gain from admitting this. In fact he says that it’s embarrassing now that he would tell Peter at the time that this was not the correct leather. Once I knew what I was looking for, it was easy for me to spot when viewing the film. How is it that a longer collar on the Raiders “hero” jacket has eluded this board collectively for so long? It’s been there the whole time. Cheers

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:05 pm

Raider S wrote:That screenshot looks like it could be pebbly goat skin too. All depends on what you want to see.

I'd much rather have a durable goat hide with some natural texture that will comeout with age than lamb any day of the week.

I'd never presume to tell you what to actually get. I just made an observation based on the pic. I love goatskin. It's my favorite leather.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:05 pm

It seems every jacket thread will now turn into a discussion of Tony's jackets...

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:09 pm

Raider S wrote:It seems every jacket thread will now turn into a discussion of Tony's jackets...

Considering that screen accuracy is such a hot topic on this board, his jacket will always enter into discussion.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:38 pm

How is it that a longer collar on the Raiders “hero” jacket has eluded this board collectively for so long? It’s been there the whole time.

A small group of us have been making this claim for a looong time now. You can see that the Nowak jacket collar is not as long when comparing it to the main hero jacket. One of the many things I really dig about the Nowak is the shape of the collar. He nailed it but good. As I said, I'm just glad Holt went ahead and asked for it as the test subject on the longer collar. I'm just waiting to hear the details.

HOLT! Where you at, man?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:49 pm

agent5 wrote:
How is it that a longer collar on the Raiders “hero” jacket has eluded this board collectively for so long? It’s been there the whole time.
A small group of us have been making this claim for a looong time now. You can see that the Nowak jacket collar is not as long when comparing it to the main hero jacket. One of the many things I really dig about the Nowak is the shape of the collar. He nailed it but good. As I said, I'm just glad Holt went ahead and asked for it as the test subject on the longer collar. I'm just waiting to hear the details.

HOLT! Where you at, man?

Well, I didn't say one way or the other that the Nowak collar was not as long as the "main" hero jacket. It's definitely the same length as the one that he examined. I’d rather go with what I know is correct (at least from what is verified), then coming up with my own specs. That’s just me. There’s nothing wrong with the other approach. I just feel that you would be in for a rough ride doing so. I doubt anybody would have come up with the differential in the front and back measurements for instance, by just looking at screen grabs.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:08 pm

Exactly why I said it was nice that Holt went ahead and did what I was scared to do for some time now. It can be a rough ride, one I've been on before.

I doubt anybody would have come up with the differential in the front and back measurements for instance, by just looking at screen grabs.

I recall this being an issue many years ago as well, if it's exactly what you're referring to. For some time people were asking that their jackets be longer in front than in the back. Over time that was kind of buried. Now it's back again.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:24 pm

Im here.

I need to finish my shift and eat some..I have more pictures of the jacket.this time much clearer and in these it shows the original color...

give me 2 1/2 hours......talk to you soon buds!

agent5..just a quick anser to you...the pleat that goes under the backpanel at the top like it does on film I think is becasue I asked for a narrow backpanel at the top and less tapered towards the hem.the backpanel on my jacket would maby be for a 42 sized jacket. my jacket is 44...

you can understrand why this jacket was such a pain doing

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:29 pm

agent5 wrote:Exactly why I said it was nice that Holt went ahead and did what I was scared to do for some time now. It can be a rough ride, one I've been on before.

I doubt anybody would have come up with the differential in the front and back measurements for instance, by just looking at screen grabs.
I recall this being an issue many years ago as well, if it's exactly what you're referring to. For some time people were asking that their jackets be longer in front than in the back. Over time that was kind of buried. Now it's back again.

Sure, I agree the whole thing is a gamble trying to "design" what we think we saw. It's just almost impossible to me to think that it can all come together without having an actual jacket to work from. I guess I’m a defeatist

# . The deferential between the front and the back would mean nothing if the jacket didn’t ride on your shoulders just so. Let’s say that you had a jacket maker tweak their (more or less) “correct” jacket pattern to be “shorter” in the back. If the jacket were to ride “correctly” square on your shoulders, you would just have a jacket that was too short in the back. The “Raiders” look is such an esoteric thing that (depending on who you are talking to) it hasn’t ever been replicated to satisfaction, even by using screen used models. I’ve always been satisfied with my “Terry Leonard” jackets. The TN Indy 1 was just a new flavor for me (one that I enjoy a lot). I actually pity those that are never satisfied, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way. I get to enjoy my stuff without thinking “If only?”. Cheers

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:56 pm

My favorite jacket is still my non-screen accurate 1999 Wested which was a gift from my late wife. It's still Indy-ish but the sentimental value is much more pleasing to me than any screen used jacket.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:43 pm

agent5 wrote:My favorite jacket is still my non-screen accurate 1999 Wested which was a gift from my late wife. It's still Indy-ish but the sentimental value is much more pleasing to me than any screen used jacket.

I can understand.

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:22 pm

Rundquist wrote:
agent5 wrote:My favorite jacket is still my non-screen accurate 1999 Wested which was a gift from my late wife. It's still Indy-ish but the sentimental value is much more pleasing to me than any screen used jacket.
I can understand.

Ya, that would definitely be more valuable than SAness.

Nibs

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:23 pm

agent5 wrote:My favorite jacket is still my non-screen accurate 1999 Wested which was a gift from my late wife. It's still Indy-ish but the sentimental value is much more pleasing to me than any screen used jacket.

a5, i didn't know you were a widow. i am sincerely sorry for your loss.

who cares about SA if that jacket has that sentiment engrained in her. i keep my herbert johnson liner in my go-to hat that i made....it came from the hat i wore on my wedding day.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:32 pm

Thanks, G. My wife was totally cool about all the gear. When I first found Indyfan.com and all the gear components, it was a lot of money. I suggested purchasing some of it and asking for various parts for birthday and Christmas and she was like, "Just get it all now and get it over with". That included a Dave Morgan 455 bull whip. She bought me my first Wested for my birthday though which was one of the best gifts I'd ever gotten. She knew how long I wanted an actual Indy jacket and wanted to make me happy. She sure did.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:55 pm

here are some more pictures of it.

see the color and drape.this baby looks and feels like Lambskin.if it wasnt for the bad fish smell that the goat has... I could swear it was a lamb.

edit

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:02 pm

Although it seems to be draping very well brand new, it still looks a little too new. I bet this baby would look sweet after a little bath. Whatcha think?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:06 pm

Are you saying Holt needs a bath?

It looks nice, Holt, though I agree with the "looks new" comment. However, I've never completely understood instantly throwing a new jacket in the bathtub. Just wear the thing! ;-)

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:09 pm

I am sending it of to the spa next week. ;-)

it wont be distressd..only given a light soak to let it break in..

as for giving away the details on this jacket........I must say that many of these details are made for my bodytype...

like, it has really full shoulders but a thight back.I think this is one of the things what it makes it look raiders..but I dont know how it would look on another body type..

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:14 pm

PSBIndy wrote:Holt, so which is more "SA" .....your jacket or TN Raiders?

well how can I answer to that????

I mean,Tony had the original on his table..I only have been guessing the specs..

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:31 pm

WOW Holt, great looking jacket, as for the pocket comments earlier, I take it back. I've been seeing too much TN jackets too judge what an accurate pocket should look like

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:56 pm

Holt, you might not give out the specs? Understand about it being specific for your body, but...

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:03 pm

about the details...

if I give out those then dont come to me and complaint if the look isnt right..thats all I am saying...I dont like being responsable if it isnt what you guys hoped it would be.

remember..there are alot of jackets made by agent5 specs,but not one of those jackets look totally alike .even though they are made by the same a5 specs...

this worked for me,it might not work for you...see what I am saying?

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:18 pm

Hi Holt,

Absolutely impressive. That side view is the first time I've seen the back- yoke-sleeve look the way I remember it. I think it's fun how everyone keys in on certain aspects that define the "Raiders" look, be it pocket proportions, flaps, back panels, collars and so forth. I really love the smaller yoke and higher back look.

I certainly don't have the muscled build to fill out the shoulders the same, but I'd want to have the yoke-sleeve-back construction replicated.

Fantastic job between you and Peter. Thanks for all your work building this great jacket and thanks for sharing. Don't let it shrink - it looks like a perfect fit.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:26 pm

[quote="Indiana Holt"]here are some more pictures of it.

see the color and drape.this baby looks and feels like Lambskin.if it wasnt for the bad fish smell that the goat has... I could swear it was a lamb.

edit

If Peter has a decent supply of that goatskin, then I encourage anyone that is thinking about buying one to do so. I have G&B jackets made in that stuff and it really is the best substitute for lambskin. It's great leather.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:29 pm

yes I agree.this is like a super Lambskin.

when you touch it,it has NO rubbery feel in any way like the old goat has.

and it doesnt look like a ''plastic'' leather either..

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:33 pm

Rundquist wrote:
Sure, I agree the whole thing is a gamble trying to "design" what we think we saw. It's just almost impossible to me to think that it can all come together without having an actual jacket to work from. I guess I’m a defeatist # . The deferential between the front and the back would mean nothing if the jacket didn’t ride on your shoulders just so. Let’s say that you had a jacket maker tweak their (more or less) “correct” jacket pattern to be “shorter” in the back. If the jacket were to ride “correctly” square on your shoulders, you would just have a jacket that was too short in the back. The “Raiders” look is such an esoteric thing that (depending on who you are talking to) it hasn’t ever been replicated to satisfaction, even by using screen used models. I’ve always been satisfied with my “Terry Leonard” jackets. The TN Indy 1 was just a new flavor for me (one that I enjoy a lot). I actually pity those that are never satisfied, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way. I get to enjoy my stuff without thinking “If only?”. Cheers

You are more of a realist than a defeatist.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:39 pm

Looks good in those latest photos Holt, and appears some of the 'new' shine is already wearing off.

Now what to do about that bad fish smell?

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:42 pm

Holt, I assume you're a 44R?...If so, I'm a 44R, too...so you're specs won't be compatible for me?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:57 pm

PSBIndy wrote:Holt, I assume you're a 44R?...If so, I'm a 44R, too...so you're specs won't be compatible for me?

I don't know why there wouldn't be. Holt just doesn't want you to blame him if it doesn't look as good on you as it does on him.

But then 'Indy's jacket' doesn't look the same on everyone as it does on Indy either.

I'm sure the jacket pattern would get adjusted for individual size requirements anyway.

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:53 pm

Holt,

Great work on your jacket! How many jackets did you need to make to get the right one you have now?

You have made it clear that you had this jacket developed for your body type. Surely there were other specs that you worked on that are not specific to your frame. Are these details you could share with us? That way we could get a jacket that fits each individual, and then use your pocket, yoke, collar and other specs. Hopefully we could have accurate info that will work well with other sizes of jackets.

I have a jacket on order right now. I don't know if I can make any changes mid-order. I'm not sure where he's at on my order.

Jake

Indiana Jake

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:52 pm

I totally understand what your saying about your jacket specs concerning cut and so on not looking the same on everyone. But your yoke and collar specs are major advance imo and anyone's jacket would benefit from them.

Can you feel the peer pressure?

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:55 pm

Indiana Holt wrote: see the color and drape.this baby looks and feels like Lambskin.if it wasnt for the bad fish smell that the goat has... I could swear it was a lamb.

Wait, do ALL goat skin jackets smell like fish? I hope not bc I don't want my TOD Wested to smell like fish

Nibs

Post by **Holt** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:58 pm

well it depends..

some come with a awfull smell...you can smell it from a distance..

and some hardly come with any smell at all..you have to stick your nose up against it to smell it...