an offering of my facilities metal gun replica

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:36 am

hello all
this is my first post on this topic, so please excuse my ignorance.
what i would like to do is try to put together a metal pistol replica with moving parts. To this end i have a pretty complete fabrication facility and a complete metal casting setup. Recently i came to know a young man locally who specializes in rtv casting. He tells me he has a mold rubber that will take temps of up to 400 degrees. This is great as my mold rubber vulcanizes at 375 degrees and generally destroys my master. but with the low temp setup it would be possible to mold a real gun without any risk of damage to the piece. and from there it is a simple matter to pour pewter and voila one pistola. At present metal prices i feel confident that we could have metal replicas at apr 100.00 dollars.... less than a resin gun. the end user would need to supply grips and paint the piece but that should be all.
So what do you guys think? is it worth attempting?
cheers- george

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:28 am

The only thing to be aware of would be appropriate gun laws in different states and countries regarding the manufacture or sale such replicas. You may have to supply them with an orange tip, and you might have to remove the S&W logos for copyright reasons. It's more than worth looking into the legalistic aspects of it so it doesn't come back to bite you down the road. Still, a working, non-fireable replica for 100 bucks? Sounds mighty good to me! ;-)

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:08 am

Are you spincasting?

I've been researching this as well. If you could really get a metal gun with moving parts out the door for $100 I know you'd have buyers.

Russ

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:13 am

I'd be intrested, I've tried before w/a resign pc and it didn't work out. But I own one of your rings and I know your a craftsman. So anything you do will be quality.
I'll be watching this thread closely. Oh which pistol are replicating.
Bapty or the one w/the half moon site from the begining.

Croft

Jakob Emiliussen · Post by **Jakob Emiliussen** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:22 am

Wow - a metal gunreplica at a 100$ - that almost sounds to good to be true. I would say the Bapty as well, i think it's the most "Indy" of all the guns he had...

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:17 am

I, too, would be interested - however if I had a choice, I would like to have a replica Webley. I think the S&W (both Bapty and Stembridge versions) are waaayy too commonly available. Heck, you can get an Airsoft version and modify it to Indy specs, as most have already. I think the Webly is most unique and a very rare find. Just my two-cents

;-)

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:27 am

I'll buy a metal Webley replica for $100.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:49 pm

I could do both no problem
but be aware that bapty and stembridge are greek to me
i know nothing of guns ( i do own a broomhandle mauser my wife baught me but that is all)
My personal taste leans to the raiders look which is the smith.
here is the rub..... i need someone with either one of the guns to step up and loan it to me to make the casts...... I know loan a gun to a stranger week never really caught on. But i can assure you of the guns safety and if necessary the owner could be present for the procedings....preferred really since i dont know how to dismantle the thing. and yes i spincast but these pieces would be gravity poured. as for the price pewter runs about 17.00 per pound and the gun would weigh 5 or less pounds i would guess? anyone know? copy right is scary i did not care for my c&d in the least and i immediately complied but i would hate to go to the trouble and not make these as exactly as possible. the gun loan guy would be compensated in some way.... perhaps we could all chip in a bit to cover a rental fee or something.
as with the rings these are not a way for me to make bank but rather to defray costs on a group of people getting something cool that they might otherwise have missed out on all together.

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:44 pm

Would you consider making any Webley WG's. They seem to be popular with COW members.

Jake

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:55 pm

I would definetly be interested in a metal replica of the Bapty

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:36 pm

as would I!!!

andrewindy · Post by **andrewindy** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:14 am

me too. very interested

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:32 am

me too!

NIBS

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:36 am

well it seems worth a try
anyone care to locate said guns for the project?
the time frame would likely have us start in january and hopefully have a prototype by mid february with kits available by mid march.
this all hinges on finding the arms to start with as i cannot afford to buy originals witout driving the kit cost up by 60-75 dollars a unit.

Cammer · Post by **Cammer** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:24 am

darthinvictus wrote:well it seems worth a try
anyone care to locate said guns for the project?
the time frame would likely have us start in january and hopefully have a prototype by mid february with kits available by mid march.
this all hinges on finding the arms to start with as i cannot afford to buy originals witout driving the kit cost up by 60-75 dollars a unit.

It would be a simple matter to purchase one, mold it or use it how you need, and then resell it. I have bought and resold many guns over the years. About half the time I make a few dollars in the process.

Andymac84 · Post by **Andymac84** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:13 am

Listen good to me. Keep us updated. I'm very interested in a replica and how this moves along.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:45 pm

cammer
sadly i do not have the moolah in the first place. Or i would.
would you care to buy one and later resell it? I hear you can make a couple bucks that way. Plus a rental fee

IndianaGear Hunter · Post by **IndianaGear Hunter** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:55 pm

Definitely would be interested as well!!

IG Hunter

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:29 am

Interested. Webley is my first vote, not just due to the Indy connection.

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:28 pm

Have you considered not using pewter, but using one of the Zinc variants?
Depending on which zinc blend you use, the zinc would be stronger than pewter (as strong or close to Aluminum), potentially lighter as well and can be rotory cast. However, I believe the melting point is a lot higher than pewter, like 600-700 degrees or so.

Just a thought,

Russ

191145 · Post by **191145** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:50 am

As far as finishes, check Brownell's site for bake-on finishes in any color/type. They didn't have 'Parkerizing' in WWI so a 1917 would be blued, but over a dull metal prep for a semi-non-reflective finish. This can be appoximated on pewter with a bake-on finish. These coatings are durable enough for combat arms and easy to use. They cure at 300F which is well below melting for pewter. The 'commercial' version is a much more attractive gun in polished blue, no lanyard loop and fancier grips, but I believe IJ's 'Raiders' gun was a military 1917 with barrel altered to about 4". Your first problem as you know will be finding a 4" 1917 that someone will let you take apart and make molds from. Good luck, and it sounds like a fun project.
On the subject of wearing a realistic gun: be very careful with this. People generally and the law in particular are very jumpy about seeing a gun worn in the open. Remember, in the eyes of lawmen, that which appears to be a gun IS a gun. LEOs have been vindicated for shooting guys that pulled a cell phone on them. My rule is, I consider a replica gun to be a real gun when I wear it, and act accordingly. In other words, I would not stroll into Wal Mart wearing a real gun (even though open carry is allowed in my state) so neither would I walk in there with a replica gun. In either case the reaction will be the same by the public and the law - 'man with a gun'. This will not make your day. Even an empty holster will get you the same treatment. This is why I have elected to go with a real gun and also why I'll probably never be seen out in public with it visible. I already had a number of handguns, but no revolvers. I studied the S&W 1917 and S&W Model 10 .38 Special, finding that while the .38 is a little smaller, changing the grips to the military style and adding a lanyard loop effects a transformation that you have to see. I'll post pics after I'm done with it. You can get a Model 10 for around $200, compared to $1000 for a 4" 1917. The Model 10 will be kept in operating condition and secure like the other guns and will be considered for possible serious use should the need arise.

ETA: Another problem with pewter is the weight. The real gun is steel, of course, which is also heavy, but all the pats are basically hollow; barrel, chambers, frame. A casting will be solid. A solid, cast 1917 of any metal other than aluminum will be heavier than a real 1917 which is already a beefy gun. The gun belt and holster are going to be pulled down by this weight and it's going to feel like you have a concrete block hanging on a belt. I believe the resin-cast replicas that can be painted with model paint are probably the way to go.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:15 am

zinc is lighter but more brittle also either can be centrifigully cast. but with zinc i would need to to have a melting pot resurfaced to do it and yes the melting temp is higher.
the gun would have hollow cavitys as per the real gun so weight would be comperable to the real deal.
so basically the gun exactly but in an alternate material.
the problem of carrying a replica is the same for resin to metal and so i consider that to be a moot point.
it is designed to be diplayed with your props not carried per se.
yes the real problem is finding the original to work from.
the technical aspects of producing them were worked out long before i was born and are techniques i use daily.
the project wil use i am guessing about 20 or so molds. one for each piece of the real gun

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:33 pm

Webley WG wanted here!

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:41 pm

yep, count me in!

TR

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:54 pm

If this thing looks nice for $100.00, I'd be in for a Webley.

jedidentist · Post by **jedidentist** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:33 pm

Don't we already have the Webley covered (Rook?). I believe the 2nd run is closed, but a decent possibility of another one occurring. That being the base, I think I'd rather see a metal S&W replica rather than redo something that someone else has already done. I have a nice resin copy of the S&W, but would gladly sell it and jump on board if one were to become available in the $100-150 ballpark.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:51 pm

Oh. So, (once again) I'm a little tardy.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:03 am

I suppose you could argue that, but besides Rook and Artsee1's [non-movable parts] resin replica, "no one" else has done the Webley. Look how many airsoft versions of the Raiders gun(s) there are, both plastic and metal. As stated in my original post, I think the S&W's are almost a dime-a-dozen. What I think would be cool is to have the gun(s) chamber molded without the rounds and providing dummy rounds separately so the rounds can be removed. No one's done that yet either - in ANY versions. Just my two cents.

;-)

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:18 am

I've got a real S & W, but as I said earlier, I'd like a Webley. I can't see myself getting a resin one though, unless it was along the lines of a red gun, with good detail and heft.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:27 am

homer
would you care to lend your smith for the cause?

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:21 am

The Webley is also seen in more of the movies. It's a tough choice as both are great.

EDIT: I'd really like to see this project get rolling. Is there anyway we can all agree to pay someone for the lending of their piece to Darth so he can get started?

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:34 am

darthinvictus wrote:homer
would you care to lend your smith for the cause?

My Smith is a 4". Are you asking if I'd lend it to someone for a model?

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:53 pm

basically yes that is what i am asking
however not being a gun guy and not knowing the proper ettiquette i hope my request is not ridiculous or vulgar.
if the barrel is too long it can be shortened on a copy so your gun would not be affected.
anyone know if it could be shipped via a gun broker? or some such
is it possible to get insurance on this sort of a thing in case of loss or damage.
it is possible that what i propose is simply impracticle. It would not be the first time a project fell thru before it began.
it just seemd like the sort of thing that would be fun.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:58 pm

i looked at webleys to get an idea of cost and at 3000.00+
i totally understand not loaning such a thing.
how much is the smith?
if the cost were dispersed over 10 people for a small run it may only affect the price a small ammount.
would this rook person be willing to team up and loan me a resin webly to cast in exchange for say 5 of the metal kits?
anyone here friends with rook?

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:57 pm

darthinvictus wrote:basically yes that is what i am asking
however not being a gun guy and not knowing the proper ettiquette i hope my request is not ridiculous or vulgar.
if the barrel is too long it can be shortened on a copy so your gun would not be affected.
anyone know if it could be shipped via a gun broker? or some such
is it possible to get insurance on this sort of a thing in case of loss or damage.
it is possible that what i propose is simply impracticle. It would not be the first time a project fell thru before it began.
it just seemd like the sort of thing that would be fun.

Sorry, I'm not sending a gun to someone I don't know. It would have to be sent through someone with an FFL license anyhow. I might suggest that whoever is contemplating this, let it be known where he is. If someone is nearby him and has that gun, something might be worked out. OR he can contact a gun shop and I'm sure they would "rent" him a gun for a short period

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:04 pm

Wow a Webley is now $3,000.00 ??????

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:08 pm

as i said
i dont know gun ettiquette and i apologize for what was surely a crass question.
onto your statement homer about renting guns
does this occur?
if so would you know what i need to do to prep for someting like this?
get some sort of liscence?
and again i am sorry for asking about the gun loan.

scot2525 · Post by **scot2525** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:15 pm

darthinvictus wrote:basically yes that is what i am asking
however not being a gun guy and not knowing the proper ettiquette i hope my request is not ridiculous or vulgar.
if the barrel is too long it can be shortened on a copy so your gun would not be affected.
anyone know if it could be shipped via a gun broker? or some such
is it possible to get insurance on this sort of a thing in case of loss or damage.
it is possible that what i propose is simply impracticle. It would not be the first time a project fell thru before it began.
it just seemd like the sort of thing that would be fun.

DV I do believe what you are asking is impracticle. Your idea of an inexpensive metal replica is a good one but I do not believe any responsible gun owner would allow you the use of their firearm. The legal ramifications for both you and especially the owner are way to high. I also am uncertain if a gun owner whom lived close to you and could supervise the entire process would be willing to have the gun put through a molding process.

Why don't you look into purchasing one of Todd's replica guns to make a mold of and eventually replicate?

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:17 pm

The laws are slightly different in each state, but first of all check and see if there is a nearby gunshop. If there is, see if they have the gun you are looking for. If they do, just tell them what you want to do and try to work something out. Maybe you can do what you need to do without taking the gun home with you. Anyhow, it's my expierence that money speaks and if you wave it at someone, it speaks loudly.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:09 pm

yep as stated before this plan has but one obstacle
unfortunately it is huge
so the plan is in hiatus
but not dead
there are many gun shows here in the south and it is not impossible that i may find the smith at a reasonable price and than sell it once i have made the molds.
thanks for the interest everyone!
darth signing off
mods feel free to delete this thread.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:22 pm

Gun shows are one thing, but check the phone book for gun stores near you. If they have the gun you want you may be able to work things out without actually buying the gun.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:17 pm

What if someone with the resin replica Webley or S&W lent you their copy for duplication

- I would if I had either one. I'd hate to see this project fizzle - I have been looking for an affordable, (Mod edit: do not work around the word filter.) replica Webley for a LONG time. Perhaps the resin copy from WSP or, more directly, Lee Keppler can help - however those replicas are one solid piece

"May God be with you on your quest. Your father's being held at the Castle".....I mean.....Good luck and here's hoping someone could help you out.

;-)

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:44 pm

here again i shall show my ignorance so please excuse me
is this the right gun?
and if so would you guys be willing to go equal shares to obtain it?
if yes we can sell the gun later and get our money back
http://www.gunsamerica.com/945361243/Gu ... M_1917.htm
this is not an auction
there is another of these for 300.00 but it says sale pending.
mainly what is needed is to know if this is even the right gun.
i have read several posts and all i can gather is 1917 being the model?

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:59 pm

No picture with a no feedback seller,,,careful. Yes that is the gun, but it has a 5 inch barrel, not the 4 inch.

TR

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:12 pm

the barrell length can be fixed
is this site familiar to anyone here
is there a screening for sellers?

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:14 pm

I tried registering the other night but something was messed up with their site.

Russ

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:22 pm

Darth, have used Guns America in the past with no problems and good results. Remember, most sales go from one FFL to another (and you should make sure you go through FFL's on both sides even if you are not required to in your state) so this helps minimize problems with something being not as it's supposed to be.

Either way, $300 is pretty cheap so even if it was not good it's not a huge cost.

I'm willing to help. While I don't think we can "pitch-in" to be part owners of a working firearm, we can pitch-in to help with the project overall.

Is there no way to get hold of a Webley? Someone out there must be able to help.

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:35 pm

rook i just registered no problem
raider s
all chip in to buy me the gun
than when i sell it afterwards
offer refunds......
which sounds bad on paper but i see no other way.
for the obvious legal reasons
how do i gete a ffl?
rook are you "the" rook?

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:36 pm

i looked up webleys but there seem to be too many variants
they start at 650.00

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:54 pm

The Webley is the one I'm INTERESTED in. Too bad we are 3,000 miles apart darthinvictus, or I'd be able to help on this project.