Presenting Tony Nowak - Indy 1 jacket #27

[whiskyman]

The back length is the same as the front length. It's just that the front length is measured from the top of the storm flap whereas the back begins from the collar stand. You can clearly see the result in Bink's comparison shots. The front hangs lower than the back. I think this is essential for a Raiders jacket and it's one of the main problems with Wested's design. All my wested's ended up looking slightly shorter at the front when worn. Indy's raiders jacket hangs low at the front and rides up at the back. Look how high up it rides when he climbs on to the flying wing. none of my westeds would do that unless they were too small for me.

[RCSignals]

I think you misunderstood. It would be beneficial to have Tony give us some of the specs so we will know exactly what we're getting, not us send him a requested list. Maybe not size measurements, but things like the hardware, the straps in question above, the standard collar length and width, hides, things like that. Since the jackets will change in size due to the individual it would be pointless to ask him for size measurements of the jacket itself. Since there are two jackets in question it would be nice to know what was what on each so there is no confusion and may make for an easier order experience for those who are pondering the purchase.

To hear, "It's the jacket that matters", means little to me if I don't know exactly what I'd be getting. I don't know about you but that's me. To reiterate a point I made before, Tony is not a gearhead and may not think about such small details as something that really matters such as the way the strap is attached. He is an expert jacket maker and IMO as long as we know exactly what we're getting it will help us decide better what we want and should result in a smoother transaction for everyone.

I kind of agree with what you're saying, A5. At the same time I'm also looking at it a little from Tony's side. Yes, a list would benefit him by reducing the clutter of unnecessary request but at the same time he has got to protect himself a little bit. There's been a little bit of talk of IP (intellectual property) around COW, and even though the design is not of his creation, he may have actually figured out some things that nobody has been ever to figure out before. He has a right to protect some of what he has figured out. Some of it is just hanging out there in the open but other are more subtle.

I know that Tony has expressed to me a little concern that he himself might be taken advantage and undercut by possible competitors by giving away too many details. He is the one who spent his own time on his own dime to come up with what he believes (and so many others now) is the de facto Raiders jacket. On certain questions I asked he very politely but firmly said that he intentionally would like to leave out certain specifics of the jacket so that it would lessen the chance that someone steal his template (I'm paraphrasing here). There were certain details he saw in the jacket that he is pretty sure that most other people haven't and wouldn't initially pick up on that give the jacket some of the certain signature characteristics it has and that other makers have not picked up on. I read into his statement as: even if someone amongst us at COW were to give him an accurate listing of those characteristics, he would still neither confirm nor deny them in their entirety. Maybe he would smile and nod or even throw you some bones but he's not giving it all away - no way, no how. And I don't blame him. I would almost be disappointed on a certain level if he did.

He is quite confident and quite clear: As other have quoted him before (and this is paraphrasing from some of our phone conversations, "My Indy I jacket is not for everyone. It's simple. I think I have figured out how to make the best copy of the Indy I jacket currently available. Hands down. Even still, I will customize it however you would like if that would make you happy. If you like it buy it, if not, then that's OK too." Some things might just have to come down to faith. I guess the question for some is, are you Mulder or are you Scully?

What also has to be considered is the source of the jacket, which while we do not know because that source wishes to remain anonymous, the loaning of this to Tony to replicate was Paramount. It is something that was not taken lightly and most unusual it even occurred. Tony knows the origin of the jacket, and he has given a specific location that he knows for sure the jacket appears in the movie. It isn't that it does not appear in other scenes. He does know it's pedigree, but is bound to confidentiality. I know that's hard for most all of us to just accept. so yes, it all comes down to faith.

The 'Mr sparks' Leather Concessionaires jacket did not have this pedigree and was not used.

[Don't Call Me Junior!]

The back is shorter than the front? That's a new one.

Not shorter. The same length. That translates to the back appearing shorter.

Right. Tony said that the same length on the back and front is one of the key differences if not THE key difference between the Raiders and the other jackets.

[RCSignals]

cool! hey rundquist........can i have it???

perhaps there should be a clarification made.....the front looks about right, but the back is shorter than the front, which is the way its suppose to be. i think there is a large population gauging the length of the jacket due to pics/images of what the jacket looks like in the front....very wrong as these are different lengths.

Tony explained it to me as the the back and front are actually the same length, but when the front is measured along the flap it includes the collar stand which adds length to the measurement.

[crismans]

You are right. Except that technically the back and the front of the Raiders jacket are the same length. The back actually needs more length (because it needs to clear your shoulder blades) to appear to be level with the front. The Crystal Skull jacket is actually longer in the back. Again, the original Raiders jacket was an improperly made piece of junk (and that’s why we dig it).

This is correct (not that you needed my confirmation ;-) ). For my CS jacket, you gave him both the front and back measurements for the jacket. For the Raiders, I only gave him the length of the front as he said the back is the same measurement which (as Rundquist explained) leads to it looking short.

I was certainly one of the doubting Thomases on this jacket at first but I've been convinced as more info came to light. I think that the suggestions of Tony not being a gearhead and this leads to some of the smaller SA details being overlooked or changed a little. From my conversations with him, Tony talks more of the look, the leather, the drape, the way the jacket moves and hangs as important. Not that these other things such as strap attachment aren't important to us, but they don't show up as much on his radar. If in doubt, call him and walk through exactly what you want. He is EXTREMEMLY accomodating and will work to get you the jacket you want.

[PLATON]

Ok that could work if the front is 25 inches. On a Wested 40 the front is 22 inches. If the back was also 22 that would be too short. If this holds true I do not think this 'detail' is not something that Peter would have forgotten over the years. It's a rather unusual thing. I have seen no jacket ever in which front equals back.

I still don't believe it. Can you the owners show it here with a measuring tape for all the rest of us to see?

[Chris_King]

Just take another look at my pics.

We're not making it up just to fool you. Why can't you believe it when you're told that the front and back measurements are the same???

The front is the same length as the back BUT it looks plenty long enough. It completely covers the rear pocket flaps of the pants.

My Todd's custom is 25 inches at the back and by comparison, it's too long.

Chris

Ok that could work if the front is 25 inches. On a Wested 40 the front is 22 inches. If the back was also 22 that would be too short. If this holds true I do not think this 'detail' is not something that Peter would have forgotten over the years. It's a rather unusual thing. I have seen no jacket ever in which front equals back.

I still don't believe it. Can you the owners show it here with a measuring tape for all the rest of us to see?

[PLATON]

Hi Chris,
I don't mean literally that I don't believe you.
I mean I am very surprised.

Yet, I still think the jacket appears short.

Take a look at the below photo. What do you have to say about the difference in shape of the rectangles which indicates that the TN is shorter than the HF ?




Also, when the Wested or Todd's is laid down flat the front and back ends meet. I can't imagine how awkward the TN will look when laid down flat.

Moreover, the G&B and Todd's are made with measurements of the stunt jacket taken by _. And the back is longer than the front. Are you guys calling _ a liar? Or did Peter make some jackets with longer back just for the fun of it? To have a few laughs?

Knattamean? knattamean?

[Chris_King]

Maybe I'm just being blind but the rectangle you've drawn over the Nowak looks longer than the rectangle you've drawn over the original pic.

Also, I want to mention that you really can't rely on photos for scaling reference. I believe that your "PLATON" pocket template was created after scaling the screengrab from the beginning of the movie where Indy is filling up the sandbag at the entrance to the temple. Your scaling of those pics resulted in a pocket that is 7 inches high.
However, as I proved with my comparison photos, the Nowak pockets are an almost exact match to that scene, but the pockets on his jacket is 8 inches tall and the stormflap is 1.75 inches wide.

Ultimately, screengrabs etc are a guide, but they can be deceptive and should not be used to prove a point because there's just too much margin for error.

What does is matter about how the Nowak looks when it's laid flat? Who's going to bother about that??? Although you may be interested to know that when I laid my Nowak flat, I could see back slightly lower than the front. Go figure.

Chris

Hi Chris,
I don't mean literally that I don't believe you.
I mean I am very surprised.

Yet, I still think the jacket appears short.

Take a look at the below photo. What do you have to say about the difference in shape of the rectangles which indicates that the TN is shorter than the HF ?

Also, when teh Wested or Todd's is laid down flat the front and back lengths meet. I can't imagine how awkward the TN will look when laid down flat.

Moreover, the G&B and Todd's are made with measurements of the stunt jacket taken by _. And the back is longer than the front. Are you guys calling _ a liar? Or did Peter make some jackets with longer back just for the fun of it?

[PLATON]

Maybe I'm just being blind but the rectangle you've drawn over the Nowak looks longer than the rectangle you've drawn over the original pic.

It is also wider. That's why I didn't talk dimensions, I talked shape.

Yes I made the PLATON pockets from the scene you say, but the above right pic of HF, no matter how much you scale up or down, that rectangle will stay the same in shape (not size)

BTW, those TN pockets how big are they again? 8 x (what)?

[Chris_King]

Honestly, I get nothing usable from that comparison pic whatsoever. Different angles, different camera, different lens, different focal length. All those factors make it impossible for it to be used as a direct comparison.

Nowak pockets are 8 x 6.5 inches but the pocket flap is slightly wider than the pocket itself.

Chris

BTW, those TN pockets how big are they again? 8 x (what)?

[PLATON]

OK Chris,

Do me a favor please.

Take a photo of the TN pocket like the one below. I want to check something please.

[Chris_King]

I'll take it later when I get home.
What's with the 0.25 inch stitching going all around the edges of the pocket flap? That doesn't look like a very accurate pocket to me. Where's it from?

Also, if you're intending to use my pic of the TN pocket in a comparison with this pocket you've shown in your photo, you'll need to let me know how far away the camera was when you took it because lens distortion / perspective will alter the appearance of the photo and make it difficult to try and get a true comparison unless I match the distance etc of your photo.

Chris

OK Chris,

Do me a favor please.

Take a photo of the TN pocket like the one below. I want to check something please.

[PLATON]

Chris, that's the pocket of an A-2 jacket that I borrowed from somewhere. (Notice the waistband at the bottom). I only used it to show you what kind of a photo I am looking for.

Digital cameras have a feature that allows close up shots to be made. It is symbolized with a flower.

Other than that, you try your best to make a photo like that because I don't know details like how far away was the camera and such.

[binkmeisterRick]

PLATON, just get a Wested already!

[Holt]

I was about to write the same thing my friend...


Platon..its true.the original jacket is a shorter jacket.you have allways standed your ground when it came to the length of the jacket.thats ok.what can I say..we didnt know any better..its really hard to determ if the jacket was a long or shorter jacket from screen grabs..you thougth it was long,I for one thoguth it was short. BUT...there is a but now....

not long ago we got an ORIGINAL raiders jacket for someone to copy.and not just anyone either,,Tony Nowak in fact...and he confirms on his jackets that the length was short and that it has the same length front and back..

why is this questionable now?

I know maby you might think..who are you to talk? you question Tony about the xbox..well..I do not question...I am a sorta confused...but thats just only becasue the first jacket of his came with the X..none jackets after that..thats why the Xbox quest of mine continues,if Tony said to me.....but the length of the jacket ..no! that is sealed.period!


if you want a longer jacket,then wested and G&B do longs.

[Hatch]

Chris, that's the pocket of an A-2 jacket that I borrowed from somewhere. (Notice the waistband at the bottom). I only used it to show you what kind of a photo I am looking for.

Digital cameras have a feature that allows close up shots to be made. It is symbolized with a flower.

Other than that, you try your best to make a photo like that because I don't know details like how far away was the camera and such.

But yet this doesn't keep you from taking pic from CK and screen grab and making "definitive" rectangles and shape statements.........

[PLATON]

???

[Holt]

!!!

[crismans]

Not adding fuel to the fire, but Tony will make a longer back as well. ;-)

[binkmeisterRick]

I bet he'd make one arm longer than the other if you really wanted it, too. I'm thinking of alternate hides... "It puts the lotion on the jacket..."

[Holt]

or better yet..I am sure he will make one into a ''Neo'' coat if you want...then it will be long enogh,I'm sure...

[PLATON]

It's not a question what he can make, it's a question of how was the original.

I already post a photo from Hawaii which clearly shows a jacket longer than 27/888 but it was ignored.

[indyrocks]

It's not a question what he can make, it's a question of how was the original.

I already post a photo from Hawaii which clearly shows a jacket longer than 27/888 but it was ignored.

Whether or not it's "clear" is subjective. That's certainly a blurry photo.....

[Indiana G]

It's not a question what he can make, it's a question of how was the original.

I already post a photo from Hawaii which clearly shows a jacket longer than 27/888 but it was ignored.

we're talking about inches here platon. tony is reproducing what he had based on hide, measurements and pattern. some of the details may have been off as the jacket he was brought was a piece of ####....he said so himself.

a short jacket won't work for everybody. my first TN1, i thought was too short....but after wearing it, i thought it looked the part. my next kick at the cat, i asked for an extra 1" based on where i like to wear my mkvii bag.

we all know that you think its too short, which you have argued in great detail and i'm sure alot of the folks here probably agree with you too. you have all the right to state your opinion as well as conflicting/differing views are typically where progress and enlightenment are found. my opinion is........the raiders jacket was short. ask anyone with an older jacket that tries to play peek-a-boo with their holster.......probably quite uncomortable having that curtain of lather stacked on top of it.......unless you have a long torso (which proves the jacket is short) or if you have a very thin leather that you can stack it in that manner......like a todd's standard........which is also short

[Indiana G]

we all know that you think its too short, which you have argued in great detail and i'm sure alot of the folks here probably agree with you too. you have all the right to state your opinion as well as conflicting/differing views are typically where progress and enlightenment are found. my opinion is........the raiders jacket was short. ask anyone with an older jacket that tries to play peek-a-boo with their holster.......probably quite uncomortable having that curtain of lather stacked on top of it.......unless you have a long torso (which proves the jacket is short) or if you have a very thin leather that you can stack it in that manner......like a todd's standard........which is also short

My work is done...

no its not........you still gotta buy the second round at the QM.........after i buy the first ;-)

[Rundquist]

Another thing to remember is that the jacket that Paterson saw was a completely different jacket than the one that Tony saw. I do not understand some people’s inability to grasp the concept that the original jackets were all over the place. The only constant that I hear is that they were all junk!

Now with that said, I compared my TN Indy 1 to one of my G&B Expeditions last night and I have to say that they are very close. Many of the measurements are next to identical (like the length of the bottom of the back panel for instance).

An obvious exception is that all of my G&B’s are cut longer because I had them cut that way. When I tried on an Expo originally, it “felt” short, just like a TN Indy 1. So I had mine built longer for personal preference. For my TN, I just went with what it was supposed to be (short). Anyway, the minor differences could be argued until the cows come home. I don’t care about that @#$%. It has the right look.

The only real difference was that the collar is definitely longer on a TN Indy 1. The storm flap is a tiny bit wider as well. Of course the leather is different too. But the jackets are definitely blood brothers. They’re closer to each other than say a Wested. Cheers

[Hatch]

we all know that you think its too short, which you have argued in great detail and i'm sure alot of the folks here probably agree with you too. you have all the right to state your opinion as well as conflicting/differing views are typically where progress and enlightenment are found. my opinion is........the raiders jacket was short. ask anyone with an older jacket that tries to play peek-a-boo with their holster.......probably quite uncomortable having that curtain of lather stacked on top of it.......unless you have a long torso (which proves the jacket is short) or if you have a very thin leather that you can stack it in that manner......like a todd's standard........which is also short

My work is done...

no its not........you still gotta buy the second round at the QM.........after i buy the first ;-)

Count me in .......I'll even bring a bottle of the Single Barrel Jack Daniels that _ was raving about....Doc

[RCSignals]

Hi Chris,
I don't mean literally that I don't believe you.
I mean I am very surprised.

Yet, I still think the jacket appears short.

Take a look at the below photo. What do you have to say about the difference in shape of the rectangles which indicates that the TN is shorter than the HF ?




Also, when the Wested or Todd's is laid down flat the front and back ends meet. I can't imagine how awkward the TN will look when laid down flat.

Moreover, the G&B and Todd's are made with measurements of the stunt jacket taken by _. And the back is longer than the front. Are you guys calling _ a liar? Or did Peter make some jackets with longer back just for the fun of it? To have a few laughs?

Knattamean? knattamean?

I don't think you can draw a reliable conclusion that way. The photo on the right (must be a screen grab) is out of proportion to start. Just look at how long the legs appear.

[RCSignals]

It's not a question what he can make, it's a question of how was the original.

I already post a photo from Hawaii which clearly shows a jacket longer than 27/888 but it was ignored.

Whether or not it's "clear" is subjective. That's certainly a blurry photo.....

and the photo is in low light and full of shadows

[RCSignals]

There are takes in Raiders that look "compressed" i.e. the CinemaScope effect. Ford looks "squeezed" in your screen shot.

That said, this is why I tend to stay away from screen grabs. They really mean very little...

Exactly my point. (Except I wrote 'left' when I meant 'right'. already corrected)

[Holt]

not only that..but take a good look at the angle of the picture.

it is taken from a lower angle..meaning his legs will look long while his torso while appear even smaller then it maby is

[PLATON]

_ wrote

There are takes in Raiders that look "compressed" i.e. the CinemaScope effect. Ford looks "squeezed" in your screen shot.

That said, this is why I tend to stay away from screen grabs. They really mean very little...

I agree about the cinemascope effect. But I thought we were after the "Sceen Accurate" (SA) thing, i.e. how the jacket appears on screen (compressed or whatever) rather than the "Actual Accurate" (AA) thing i.e. how the jacket really was.

I have more to say but I won't because you 'll say I am biased.

[PLATON]

Thanks for your comments my friend.
Just to let you know, I don't 'argue', I love you all.
I am just sharing my worries with you.

I hope everyone here finds the jacket he likes and nevermind SA.

[Baldwyn]

If you want a screen accurate jacket, I think the only way to get it is a TN CS jacket. Everything will be a recreation, or an actual prop from the movie.

And even then, I'm noticing the TN CS jackets are diverging....

[Indiana G]

If you want a screen accurate jacket, I think the only way to get it is a TN CS jacket. Everything will be a recreation, or an actual prop from the movie.

And even then, I'm noticing the TN CS jackets are diverging....

you'd need to request from tony....EXACTLY what you gave to bernie....no reinforcements and yadda yadda yadda......

but then you'd have no idea how long a 'production accurate' jacket would last.... ;-)

[RCSignals]

Thanks for your comments my friend.
Just to let you know, I don't 'argue', I love you all.
I am just sharing my worries with you.

I hope everyone here finds the jacket he likes and nevermind SA.

Don't worry, be happy

Don't Worry, Be Happy
From the Movie "Cocktails"
Performed by Bobby McFerrin

Here is a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry be happy
In every life we have some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy......

Ain't got no place to lay your head
Somebody came and took your bed
Don't worry, be happy
The land lord say your rent is late
He may have to litigate
Don't worry, be happy
Lood at me I am happy
Don't worry, be happy
Here I give you my phone number
When you worry call me
I make you happy
Don't worry, be happy
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got not girl to make you smile
But don't worry be happy
Cause when you worry
Your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry, be happy (now).....

There is this little song I wrote
I hope you learn it note for note
Like good little children
Don't worry, be happy
Listen to what I say
In your life expect some trouble
But when you worry
You make it double
Don't worry, be happy......
Don't worry don't do it, be happy
Put a smile on your face
Don't bring everybody down like this
Don't worry, it will soon past
Whatever it is
Don't worry, be happy

[binkmeisterRick]

Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.

[RCSignals]

If you want a screen accurate jacket, I think the only way to get it is a TN CS jacket. Everything will be a recreation, or an actual prop from the movie.

And even then, I'm noticing the TN CS jackets are diverging....

diverging?

[Raider S]

"military intelligence"

Man I wish that old Robin Williams joke would die. Can't speak for other countries, but there are some bright folks out there who make it that much easier for me to sleep at night.

Anyway, I think we are finally getting to the whole SA heart - some people want what they "see" on the screen. That probably ain't what you'll get even if you make a carbon copy of an original.

[binkmeisterRick]

Try this one on...

SA is like Santa Claus. If it makes you comfortable and hopeful, then it is worth believing. But, like Santa, SA really just drives the cash register

Um, which "Santa" are we talking about? You have to realize there are just as many Santa variants as there are jacket variants. There's the original Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, Sinterklaas... And then the suits for each are just as different! And talk about red highlights under the jacket! Oh, (ho ho) this is so confusing... ;-)

[Satipo]

Santa - wasn't he invented by Coca-Cola? ;-)

[CM]

Santa - wasn't he invented by Coca-Cola? ;-)

Not quite - bit of an urban myth, that one, but they did help to popularise the look of Santa early in the 20th century in their magazine ads. I hear it was Pepsi that invented Indiana Jones...




...sorry, couldn't help that one.

[CM]

[quote="PLATON"]Hi



[quote]

My problem with this photo is that it makes the new TN jacket look almost entirely accurate - length, shoudlers, cut, drape, you name it.

[PLATON]

Hey Chris,
Where's that pocket photo ?

[Chris_King]

I've decided not to take the photo because it will just result in another few pages of discussion that has no conclusion.

Chris

[Michaelson]

.....and we who moderate this site thank you, Chris! ;-)

Regards! Michaelson

[Raider S]

Have you heard? Bird is the word! Ba ba bird, bird, bird, bird, ba bird, bird, bird, ba ba ba bird...

[Baldwyn]

If you want a screen accurate jacket, I think the only way to get it is a TN CS jacket. Everything will be a recreation, or an actual prop from the movie.

And even then, I'm noticing the TN CS jackets are diverging....

you'd need to request from tony....EXACTLY what you gave to bernie....no reinforcements and yadda yadda yadda......

but then you'd have no idea how long a 'production accurate' jacket would last.... ;-)

Oh come on G, you and I both know a "production accurate" jacket will outlive most gearheads, and the "reinforcement" on the inside is merely added insurance, and really not necessary. And if you're harder on your gear, your life expectancy isn't that long anyways. A G&B isn't reinforced from the inside and a production accurate jacket is probably constructed just as well.

By the way, anyone figure out what "reinforced from the inside" mean? I believe he uses glue to bind pieces, and then stitches them. I don't know if he uses something in addition to this, but he definitely uses glue.

[chagwa]

The Nowak Raiders looks just like the real thing!

If I didn't already own a Nowak CS, I would get this in a heartbeat, but one Indy jacket is more than enough for me. I say keep it Chris, you will regret selling such a museum quality piece.

I would like to mention that the pants on the mannequin are about a size too small to be SA, also the shoes are definitely too small and the laces are perhaps slighty too short! Maybe that's what's confusing people...