TONY NOWAK IS REPLICATING AN ORIGINAL RAIDERS JACKET!!

Prescott · Post by **Prescott** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:29 am

Here’s what I’ve been able to pull away from this.
Tony had 2 jackets to work from. One without a label and one with a Leather Concessionaries tag. One or both of these jackets have had their condition/construction described as “garbage”. As I recall from threads dating back to the birth of the Expedition, Leonard’s jacket had been kept in a plastic bag and was in desperate need of being soaked in a tub of Pecards as it was in poor condition. We have to remember that these items of costume were not meant to outlive the production. The people who held on to them did so out of a sense of nostalgia, not so we could have a reference for THE jacket. Tony chose a hide that most closely resembles the leather in its current condition and I think he’s seeing this grain on some of his stills, whether it’s there or not is open to interpretation as we all know. The choice of jacket to reproduce may have been influenced by which jacket was in the best condition (no tag?), There also seems to be something behind the “hush, hush” Leather Concessionaries jacket that have influenced its rejection . We are also informed that the more SA jackets being produced seem to resemble the Leather Concessionaries item. Tony is not a SA or Raiders nut like us. The little things we look for simply wouldn’t occur to Tony as being important (piping, seams lining up, etc.). One problem is this project has been billed as an “exact replica”. Before its release, I think Tony would have benefited from a prototype process with some from this group to vet all of the details (ala Flight Suits and the Expedition). This is the process that’s going on now, albeit at some expense to us. Some have raised the argument that all Tony needs to do is make an exact copy of the Leather Concessionaries jacket and all will be well. It seems like a simple solution that may be extremely difficult to achieve due to the age and condition of the jacket in question, hence the need for the prototype process. Get what you can from the original and we’ll fill in the rest. This solution may be distasteful to purists, however it may be to only solution to restore the original as it has deformed over 27 years. We only need to look at the screen used fedora to see what time does to these items. Lastly we need to consider the order of shooting. The “idol grab” took place at the end of shooting whereas the “Bantu Wind” started the filming. I know there’s a still somewhere with Ford and Allen together with the left patch pocket coming apart with his glove sticking out. This jacket may have been unusable during the Hawaii shoot and a different jacket was used as a stand-in. Tony will probably arrive at the QM summit with a legal pad, digital camera and a tape measure and get an overload on what we think of as screen accurate. This, like all previous jacket projects, will evolve. Stay tuned and chime in with what you think is important. Hopefully this adds something positive to the discussion.
-P-

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:43 am

_ wrote:
RCSignals wrote:I'm still waiting for _'s report from talking to Tony.
I'm leaving things up to Tony. Hey - it is his gig. Still trying to figure out why I got called in if nobody wants to talk about it... Of course, not all dirt is fit for consumption out here... Man - I have never seen this many headless chickens since I we had to sit on Flight Suit's name as the Expedition's jacket maker in 2000...

Anyway - I am officially out of the information business on the "breaking news" side. Let vendors break their own news, and I'll stick with corroboration. Fewer emails that way... ;-)

I'm not recanting, though I think a few wires may have been crossed - "the song remains the same..." I'm just a lousy singer.

The proof is in "nobody seems to leave his shop without placing an order"...

that's fine and perfectly understandable.

I was just referring to earlier when you said you might try to contact Tony about it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:45 am

Indiana G wrote:that's included in the package, along with a COA and a nice canvas jacket bag....just like the indy 4 jacket did.

with that.......that is all that i have left to add to this thread. cheers folks

You have the jacket already?

No Customs issues? ;-)

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:53 am

RCSignals wrote:
Indiana G wrote:that's included in the package, along with a COA and a nice canvas jacket bag....just like the indy 4 jacket did.

with that.......that is all that i have left to add to this thread. cheers folks
You have the jacket already?

No Customs issues? ;-)

not when the actual monetary value of the package is kept on the down-low from those customs LEECHES.....yes YOU....sitting in the customs office, reaping goods that don't belong to you....i hope to find you in a dark alley one day.....you'll be calling in sick the next day, trust me.......

sorry, i hate customs. i've probably put some of these urchins' kids through school.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:59 am

Indiana G wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
Indiana G wrote:that's included in the package, along with a COA and a nice canvas jacket bag....just like the indy 4 jacket did.

with that.......that is all that i have left to add to this thread. cheers folks
You have the jacket already?

No Customs issues? ;-)
not when the actual monetary value of the package is kept on the down-low from those customs LEECHES.....yes YOU....sitting in the customs office, reaping goods that don't belong to you....i hope to find you in a dark alley one day.....you'll be calling in sick the next day, trust me.......

sorry, i hate customs. i've probably put some of these urchins' kids through school.

I know exactly how you feel about Canada Customs and why.

I hope this jacket is home safe and sound

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:07 am

Prescott wrote:Here’s what I’ve been able to pull away from this.
Tony had 2 jackets to work from. One without a label and one with a Leather Concessionaries tag. One or both of these jackets have had their condition/construction described as “garbage”. As I recall from threads dating back to the birth of the Expedition, Leonard’s jacket had been kept in a plastic bag and was in desperate need of being soaked in a tub of Pecards as it was in poor condition. We have to remember that these items of costume were not meant to outlive the production. The people who held on to them did so out of a sense of nostalgia, not so we could have a reference for THE jacket. Tony chose a hide that most closely resembles the leather in its current condition and I think he’s seeing this grain on some of his stills, whether it’s there or not is open to interpretation as we all know. The choice of jacket to reproduce may have been influenced by which jacket was in the best condition (no tag?), There also seems to be something behind the “hush, hush” Leather Concessionaries jacket that have influenced its rejection . We are also informed that the more SA jackets being produced seem to resemble the Leather Concessionaries item. Tony is not a SA or Raiders nut like us. The little things we look for simply wouldn’t occur to Tony as being important (piping, seams lining up, etc.). One problem is this project has been billed as an “exact replica”. Before its release, I think Tony would have benefited from a prototype process with some from this group to vet all of the details (ala Flight Suits and the Expedition). This is the process that’s going on now, albeit at some expense to us. Some have raised the argument that all Tony needs to do is make an exact copy of the Leather Concessionaries jacket and all will be well. It seems like a simple solution that may be extremely difficult to achieve due to the age and condition of the jacket in question, hence the need for the prototype process. Get what you can from the original and we’ll fill in the rest. This solution may be distasteful to purists, however it may be to only solution to restore the original as it has deformed over 27 years. We only need to look at the screen used fedora to see what time does to these items. Lastly we need to consider the order of shooting. The “idol grab” took place at the end of shooting whereas the “Bantu Wind” started the filming. I know there’s a still somewhere with Ford and Allen together with the left patch pocket coming apart with his glove sticking out. This jacket may have been unusable during the Hawaii shoot and a different jacket was used as a stand-in. Tony will probably arrive at the QM summit with a legal pad, digital camera and a tape measure and get an overload on what we think of as screen accurate. This, like all previous jacket projects, will evolve. Stay tuned and chime in with what you think is important. Hopefully this adds something positive to the discussion.
-P-

I think that's not a bad summary.
I'm not sure which jacket is which as far as what was used. I do agree Tony may find himself swamped at the QM.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:18 am

Indiana Williams wrote:incase anyones interested, heres a photo Tony gave me when I visited.I dont think you can see it in the scan but if you look at the idol grab pic, the pocket shows the type of grain that is in the leather hes using.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll307/jjdw88/Joe.jpg

These are entirely different shots the fact that they might be the same jacket is highly unlikely I still don't find this proof enough.
Edit:
Found some proof
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 01hlx1.jpg

I still DON'T see the grain It actually looks pretty smooth in this picture to me.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:56 am

Looking at the enlarged version I see grain. Black and white photos hide a lot though

Chris_King · Post by **Chris_King** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:50 am

Here's Tony's reply when I asked him about the grain:

HELLO CHRIS!

IT IS THE THE TEXTURE OF THE LEATHER THAT MATTERS THE MOST ON THAT JACKET, BECAUSE IT IS THE VERY MOST VISSIBLE DETAIL ON THAT JACKET IN THAT MOVIE. IT IS THERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AND DOES NOT NEED ANY EXPLONATION. CASE CLOSED.
THE IS NO COSTUME DESIGNER IN THIS WORLD THAT CAN CREATE THAT LOOK. THAT LOOK IS CREATED IN THE TANNERY AND IN NO OTHER WAY. I KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT THAT LEATHER BUT IF I REVEAL IT SOMEBODY ELSE WILL CLAIM IT. I LEARNED THAT FROM MY CRYSTAL SKULL JACKET EXPIRIENCE.

FACTS AGAIN - I NEVER INQUIRED OR INTENDED TO MAKE INDY IV OR INDY ONE JACKET BUT I WAS ASKED TO MAKE THEM, THEY CAME MY WAY AND HERE WE ARE. NOW WE CAN USE ANY LEATHER DISIRED, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER POSTING OF ANOTHER INDY ONE JACKET SHORTLY, THE OWNER MR.FRANCISCO IS VERY PRECISE NOW THAT HE HAS THE JACKET HE WOULD BE ABLE TO DESCRIBE THE LEATHER, THE PHOTOS DONT DO ANY JUSTICE.
MY VERY BEST REGARS AGAIN TONY NOWAK.

So, in a nutshell, it sounds like he's convinced that this leather is correct. How can that be when no photos show it with as much prominent grain ALL OVER as his leather choice?

Chris

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:12 am

IT IS THE THE TEXTURE OF THE LEATHER THAT MATTERS THE MOST ON THAT JACKET, BECAUSE IT IS THE VERY MOST VISSIBLE DETAIL ON THAT JACKET IN THAT MOVIE. IT IS THERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AND DOES NOT NEED ANY EXPLONATION

Are we all blind?

Chris_King · Post by **Chris_King** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:14 am

My reaction exactly. LOL.
I think I need to email some pics to Tony to show him that I wasn't talking out of my rear when I said the jacket in the movie definitely appears to be smoother, and only has the heavy texture in certain areas.

Chris

Indiana Strones wrote:
IT IS THE THE TEXTURE OF THE LEATHER THAT MATTERS THE MOST ON THAT JACKET, BECAUSE IT IS THE VERY MOST VISSIBLE DETAIL ON THAT JACKET IN THAT MOVIE. IT IS THERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AND DOES NOT NEED ANY EXPLONATION
Are we all blind?

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:21 am

Ask him to share a couple of good pics. And send him this:

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:42 am

Someone here said that it's impossible to determinate a leather by eyes or touch only.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:09 am

_ wrote:The basis is a phone call with somebody who has a screen-used LC .

Guys, I'm beginning to think I'm the only guy here who doesn't have an original screen used jacket in his collection.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:11 am

You didn't get one?

Somehow, I think _'s source does own one. ;-)

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:15 am

If that's the case, someone needs to get that jacket to Tony ASAP!

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:12 am

_, I've got to take my hat off to you. Getting Ford to compare the weights of his Indy jackets? Sounds like you're converting him into the ultimate gearhead!

You've gotta get him on this board!

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:17 am

_ wrote:
Satipo wrote:_, I've got to take my hat off to you. Getting Ford to compare the weights of his Indy jackets? Sounds like you're converting him into the ultimate gearhead!

You've gotta get him on this board!
I believe we have a screen name reserved...

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:22 am

One thing I'm not understanding that some are hinting at is that the leather somehow changed over the years to develop this very distinct pattern we see him duplicating, however, not one leather jacket I've owned which has just sat there unworn has ever just miraculously changed in time. I can see where a leather with a substantial grain will smooth out over time but is there really any way for the leather to do the opposite and achieve more grain over time...just by sitting there?

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:29 am

_ wrote: Seriously, Ford has his LC jacket (which he wore for Mystery of the Blues as well as the press conference with the "Indy Girls" for the DVD release).

Has anyone a pic from that press conference?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:38 am

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:45 am

Thanks!

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:04 am

agent5 wrote:One thing I'm not understanding that some are hinting at is that the leather somehow changed over the years to develop this very distinct pattern we see him duplicating, however, not one leather jacket I've owned which has just sat there unworn has ever just miraculously changed in time. I can see where a leather with a substantial grain will smooth out over time but is there really any way for the leather to do the opposite and achieve more grain over time...just by sitting there?

I think maybe he means that the wrinkles (and ultimately grainy appearance) was developed mainly during the distressing process prior to filming, and then later during filming itself.

As for the effect of time, I think that mainly affects the measurements of the jacket, and not so much the grain.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:11 am

agent5 wrote:I can see where a leather with a substantial grain will smooth out over time but is there really any way for the leather to do the opposite and achieve more grain over time...just by sitting there?

I rarely have seen a jacket smooth out. I find most do just the opposite with wear. There are a lot of factors too, but once you start moving and bending some leathers, the grain is enhanced. Add some moisture and the grain will 'pop' out as it swells at different rates. Wear the jacket for a while, and the breakdown of the surface coating and dye will cause the grain to look more pronounced as the dyes that evened out the peaks and valleys of the leather are now worn away a little.

I have searched my movie archive and I have found a pretty grainy-looking Lewis Leathers jacket as worn by Elijah Wood in the movie "The Oxford Murders." Although it is really grainy, it is a natural looking grain.

I do not consider Tony's hide natural looking. At least not for a lambskin. If Tony states that this is a natural hide and that is how it is meant to look, then I will go with that. But I do not have to find it appealing. I want a jacket that looks like what was captured on film 25 years ago - not what it has turned into since.

Chris_King · Post by **Chris_King** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:38 am

I've just sent the following pics to Tony. I asked him again if he's convinced about the accuracy of the leather he's chosen - even though it seems impossible to find a jacket in the movie which has got as much prominent texture on it. Sure, it's there in small areas - but definitely not all over (at least to my eyes).

Chris

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:42 am

That bottom left pic is great, Chris. It shows that it is most likely wrinkled from being washed and not the pattern on the leather itself. Looks exactly like the recently washed Todd's jacket in the other thread.

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:45 am

The more you look for it, the more it's there. The grain that is, on the screen jacket. Maybe it's just that our snazzy modern 10 megapixel cameras show it up more than old movie screen-grabs?
Whatever the case, I didn't like the TN Raiders jacket at first, but it's growing on me, it's got such character.
I passed on a TN Cs, maybe I was fated to get one of these instead!

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:55 am

...and ( harsh, soft, filtered, reflected, gelled, and otherwise "corrected" )lighting. Lens filters, film decomposition/restoration, etc, etc, etc...

Dr. Jones1936 · Post by **Dr. Jones1936** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:00 pm

Been watching this thread. TN's leather is just not right.

C'mon, guys. It's WAAAAAAAAAY over the top. Sure, there is grain and pebbling in leather, but it's not THAT obvious. Seriously.

No offense to TN, of course. Just my 2¢.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:06 pm

Just curious, but has someone asked Tony if he could use his CS leather to make his Raider's I jacket? That would be interesting and that might cut down on the price as well....

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:28 pm

ReturningSon wrote:Just curious, but has someone asked Tony if he could use his CS leather to make his Raider's I jacket? That would be interesting and that might cut down on the price as well....

NOoooooooooooooooo! That leather is not right for a Raider's jacket either.

indyrocks · Post by **indyrocks** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:34 pm

ReturningSon wrote:Just curious, but has someone asked Tony if he could use his CS leather to make his Raider's I jacket? That would be interesting and that might cut down on the price as well....

Good question....I think he said in his email to Chris he can use any leather the customer wants. I wonder what kind of price changes we'd see?

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:44 pm

ReturningSon wrote:Just curious, but has someone asked Tony if he could use his CS leather to make his Raider's I jacket? That would be interesting and that might cut down on the price as well....

That's blasphemy!!

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:17 pm

I love the look of Elijah's jacket - very cool indeed!

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:26 pm

whiskyman wrote:I love the look of Elijah's jacket - very cool indeed!

It is a great jacket - and a red lining to boot.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:30 pm

Kevin Anderson wrote:The more you look for it, the more it's there. The grain that is, on the screen jacket. Maybe it's just that our snazzy modern 10 megapixel cameras show it up more than old movie screen-grabs?
Whatever the case, I didn't like the TN Raiders jacket at first, but it's growing on me, it's got such character.
I passed on a TN Cs, maybe I was fated to get one of these instead!

Screen grabs are definitely a tough sell to use for comparison. Not only do you have minor video artifacts, compression detail loss, but you have natural motion blur. Of course ALL of this will blend such detail as grain. On set still camera pictures will be the best.

Watching one of the extras on KotCS, I was shocked to see the grain pop out on a Raiders segment. Maybe what we're missing is Blu-Ray Raiders.... I wonder if that will ultimately turn the SA thing on its end.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:05 pm

_ wrote:..........

Oh - I have a pretty strong indication that the LC is made of cowhide. The basis is a phone call with somebody who has a screen-used LC as well as a lambskin Expedition. He said the weight difference felt like 2:1. I'm following up to compare them myself next week, but I expect that will just solidify things.

I watched LC last night, that jacket does appear to be a heavier leather. cowhide I think is a strong possibility.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:07 pm

Indiana Strones wrote:
_ wrote:The basis is a phone call with somebody who has a screen-used LC .
Guys, I'm beginning to think I'm the only guy here who doesn't have an original screen used jacket in his collection.

no you aren't alone in that thought.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:10 pm

Castor Dioscuri wrote:
agent5 wrote:One thing I'm not understanding that some are hinting at is that the leather somehow changed over the years to develop this very distinct pattern we see him duplicating, however, not one leather jacket I've owned which has just sat there unworn has ever just miraculously changed in time. I can see where a leather with a substantial grain will smooth out over time but is there really any way for the leather to do the opposite and achieve more grain over time...just by sitting there?
I think maybe he means that the wrinkles (and ultimately grainy appearance) was developed mainly during the distressing process prior to filming, and then later during filming itself.

As for the effect of time, I think that mainly affects the measurements of the jacket, and not so much the grain.

yes he specifically mentions Texture, not necessarily grain

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:15 pm

Chris_King wrote:............

Chris

Wow, look at the texture of the Ford jacket in that picture. That's on more than a small area, and very comparable to the TN jacket.

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:26 pm

agent5 wrote:

is it just me or does it seem that Karen Allen is smiling bigger than the rest. I have always kind of felt that maybe she's always had kind of a crush on Harrison. Or maybe she just smiles bigger usually.

Post by **Holt** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:30 pm

thats a LC jacket right?

it looks like it.dark brown silk lining

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:30 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Chris_King wrote:............

Chris
Wow, look at the texture of the Ford jacket in that picture. That's on more than a small area, and very comparable to the TN jacket.

Maybe the texture on TN jacket smoothes out with distressing. Maybe stretches or wears down (i.e. like tooling on a saddle or leather belt). I agree I see the texture in the screen grab too.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:32 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:thats a LC jacket right?

it looks like it.dark brown silk lining

Yes LC.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:34 pm

whipcracker wrote:
agent5 wrote:
is it just me or does it seem that Karen Allen is smiling bigger than the rest. I have always kind of felt that maybe she's always had kind of a crush on Harrison. Or maybe she just smiles bigger usually.

I hope the hand on the left is not of HF...

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:09 pm

Indiana Strones wrote:
I hope the hand on the left is not of HF...

That would certainly make for some SA oddity, wouldn't it? ;-)

Chris_King · Post by **Chris_King** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:22 pm

Just to clarify - that photo from the well of souls is not a screen grab, it's a hi-res wallpaper image downloaded from the official Indy website and is one of the only images where that sort of texture can be seen. It's mainly on the back panel / upper shoulder. I specifically picked the image to send to Tony to show him that I could understand where he was coming from regarding wanting a texture to the jacket, but in my opinion, the hide he's using has taken it too far. It's just too textured compared to the original from what I can see.

RCSignals wrote: Wow, look at the texture of the Ford jacket in that picture. That's on more than a small area, and very comparable to the TN jacket.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:29 pm

Chris_King wrote:Just to clarify - that photo from the well of souls is not a screen grab, it's a hi-res wallpaper image downloaded from the official Indy website and is one of the only images where that sort of texture can be seen. It's mainly on the back panel / upper shoulder. I specifically picked the image to send to Tony to show him that I could understand where he was coming from regarding wanting a texture to the jacket, but in my opinion, the hide he's using has taken it too far. It's just too textured compared to the original from what I can see.

RCSignals wrote: Wow, look at the texture of the Ford jacket in that picture. That's on more than a small area, and very comparable to the TN jacket.

That's what's clearest, back panel, upper shoulder and top of front panel.
There is a lot of texture, very close to the TN jacket.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't on more of the jacket too.

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:42 pm

Those women have some big hands!

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:26 pm

Chris_King wrote: I specifically picked the image to send to Tony to show him that I could understand where he was coming from regarding wanting a texture to the jacket, but in my opinion, the hide he's using has taken it too far. It's just too textured compared to the original from what I can see.

...to piggyback onto this, the back of the TN jacket seems to have smaller 'texture' than the front - so the comparison that might almost work here will not work when compared to a front view.

Also - admittedly based on only one photo - the grain seems to be vertical except for the right pocket (left in photo) which seems more horizontal. It makes the jacket look more wonky.