TONY NOWAK IS REPLICATING AN ORIGINAL RAIDERS JACKET!!

moviematt1989 · Post by **moviematt1989** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:44 pm

PETER wrote:THink on this.
If I did not claim 'Intellectual property rights' and the whole thing belonged to Lucas Films do you think ANYONE would be making unlicenced copies.

Peter, I'm curious, how did you obtain your IP's?, did you have it in your contract when you signed on? Or did you get them after it's release?

Very best,

Matt

Chewie Louie · Post by **Chewie Louie** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:01 pm

PETER wrote:THink on this.
If I did not claim 'Intellectual property rights' and the whole thing belonged to Lucas Films do you think ANYONE would be making unlicenced copies.

Absolutely. As long as jacket makers did not include trademark names and/or images in their advertising, they would be free to make as many "adventure" jackets as they desired . . . and there would be nothing Lucas would be able to do about it. Nothing.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:53 am

Isn't Indiana Jones a trademark as a charachter/costume? I mean like Darth Vader, his costume is copyrighted.

indyrocks · Post by **indyrocks** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:22 am

Well I think Darth Vader is a bit more unique than Indy. I think what some people have been saying in regard to the jacket is that because it's a basic leather jacket style from the 30's and 40's as long as the vendor isn't using certain verbiage or any photos from the film, as stated above, "adventure jackets" are completely legal and Mr Lucas (the ruiner of my hopes and dreams) can't do anything about it.

Indy's outfit is not all THAT unique. It had been thought of before to some extent. It's not a giant black skull like mask in any case.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:27 am

Ok, I understand that is not exactly the same thing, but also the Indy jacket, after all, is unique in the design. That's what I meant.

DVD Connoisseur · Post by **DVD Connoisseur** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:44 pm

As far as I know, "general" costumes in films can be reproduced as long as there's not a breach of copywrite. With something specific like a stormtrooper suit, it's a different ballgame as it's a specific "look".

One of the websites had info relating to this but I can't locate it now.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:50 am

DVD Connoisseur wrote:As far as I know, "general" costumes in films can be reproduced as long as there's not a breach of copywrite. With something specific like a stormtrooper suit, it's a different ballgame as it's a specific "look".

One of the websites had info relating to this but I can't locate it now.

Just to clarify, there is a HUGE difference between Copyright and Copywrite... Be certain of what you are typing!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:39 am

Below is the rights held by LFL (straight from the copyright office. It includes jackets and hats. (does not include shirts, boots whips)
But it doesn't go deep to identify which jackets, or the exact design. This means that Peter, provided that he doesn't write "Indiana Jones" on the label of his jacket, can sell for as long he likes. I think it's not what your product is, but how you market it.

Word Mark INDIANA JONES
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Pre-recorded audio tapes, video tapes, audio cassettes, video cassettes, CD-ROMs, DVDs, compact discs, and video discs, featuring entertainment related to films, games, animation and music; computer game software; computer game software and manuals sold as a unit; computer video game software; computer video game software and manuals sold as a unit; interactive video game programs; interactive computer game programs, downloadable computer game software, downloadable interactive entertainment software for playing computer games, downloadable interactive entertainment software for playing video games; sports helmets, handheld joy sticks with embedded software for playing video games; interactive video game remote controls
IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Children's activity books; address books; novels for adults; art books; artist's materials, namely, pens and pencils; bank checks; book covers; book marks; book plates; books containing puzzles and games; books containing screenplays; books featuring photographs; books for role-playing; books on movie-making; calendars; cardboard figures; checkbook holders and covers; children's books; children's books combined with toys and sold as a unit; children's read-along books and pre-recorded tapes sold as a unit; children's story books; coffee table books; coloring books; comic books; comic magazines; cookbooks; diaries; erasers; paper gift bags; gift books; paper gift tags; paper gift wrap; graphic novels; greeting cards; printed instructional manuals and strategy guides in the field of computer games; printed invitations; iron-on transfers; juvenile books; magazines in the field of entertainment; markers; non-electronic personal planners and organizers; notebooks; novels for juveniles; paper cake decorations; paper decorations in the nature of doorknob hangers; paper napkins; paper party bags; paper party decorations; paper party hats; paper table cloths; pencil cases; pencil sharpeners; pencils; pens; personal organizers; postcards; posters; puzzle books; read-along books; read-along children's books; reference books in the field of entertainment; reference books in the filed of action/adventure mysteries; school supply kits containing various combinations of selected school supplies, namely, writing instruments, pens, pencils, mechanical pencils, erasers, markers, crayons, highlighters, folders, notebooks, paper, graduated rulers, protractors, paper clips, pencil sharpeners, writing grips, glue and book marks; scrapbook albums; scrapbooks; script books; series of fiction books; sheet music; stationery type portfolios; sticker albums; sticker books; stickers. story books; temporary tattoos; trading cards; business cards; art prints; animation cells; collectible cards; lithographic prints; original works of art created from paper; photographic prints; printed art reproductions; replicas of props in the nature of paper cut outs in the form of posters featuring printed replicas of characters from movies

IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: clothing, namely, t-shirts, sweatshirts, jackets, scarves, bandanas and headwear

IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Accessories for use with toy action figures, action type target games; amusement park rides; balloons; bath toys; board games; card games; cases for action figures; cases for play accessories for action figure, model vehicles and model space craft; Christmas tree ornaments; connecting links for toy building blocks; construction toys; costume masks; doll costume masks; dolls; hand held units for playing electronic games; hi bounce balls; inflatable swimming pools; in-line skates; jigsaw puzzles; paper face masks; parlor games; coin operated and non-coin operated pinball machines; play sets for toy model vehicles, toy model space craft; plush toys; protective pads and padding for skateboarding; role-playing toys; roller skates; toy model space crafts and related accessories sold as units; stand alone video game machines; swimming aids, namely, swim floats for recreational use; three-dimensional puzzles; toy action figures; toy building blocks; toy candy dispensers; toy candy holders; toy coin banks; toy model hobby craft kits; toy model rockets and accessories therefore sold as a unit; toy model vehicles and related accessories sold as a units; toy modeling dough kits and accessories for use therewith sold as units; toy pedal cars; toy remote control vehicles; toy scooters; toy snow globes; toy vehicles; toy weapons; toy model vehicles and accessories therefore sold as a unit; water squirting toys; wind-up toys; yo-yos; collectible card games; collectible miniature board games, and toy helmets

IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Entertainment services in the field of film and television, namely, the creation, production and distribution of motion picture films, animated movies, videos, animated videos, television programs and computer generated images for motion picture films, animated movies, videos, animated videos, television programs; animation production services; providing television and motion picture audio and visual special effects animation services for film, video and television; providing news in the field of entertainment; entertainment services, namely, pre-production, and post-production for motion pictures, videos, animation and television programs; entertainment services provided on-line by means of global and local area networks, namely, providing information regarding interactive computer game software, interactive video game software and interactive computer games and interactive video games, all on-line by means of global and local area networks; providing news in the field of entertainment relating to interactive computer game software and interactive video game software over an electronic network; providing news programming in the field of entertainment relating to science fiction over an electronic network; fan club services; and providing interactive computer game software over an electronic network that may be accessed network-wide by network users; and providing online computer games

Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM
Serial Number 78751358
Filing Date November 10, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition September 25, 2007
Owner (APPLICANT) Lucasfilm Ltd. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA P.O. Box 29901 San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94129
Attorney of Record Rosemary S. Tarlton
Prior Registrations 1341020;1899890;2805231;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Peter wrote

Either way the price is ridiculous.
It is no longer a case of what can the fans afford but how much can I get away with. Just my opinion.
Peter

I will have to agree with that. Making 300% profit or more, is not my idea of a fair trade.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:52 am

That was filed in 2005... Unles there is an older one on file, anyone could claim 'prior art' on that, no?

First movie IP would have been filed in 1980 or so, if filed at all...

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:58 am

There are older ones.
This is the most current.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:02 am

That makes sense.

I'd like to see the verbage of the first one- which is the most significant in my opinion...

Can you just post a link (or the entire entry if you like again) for the others?

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:53 am

Knockoffs happen all the time in the apparel and clothing industry all the time and not a lick can be done about it unless the knockoff purports to be from the original maker and makes use of copyrighted material such as the original maker's marks. If Peter slapped the Indiana Jones logo on his jackets, regardless of whether he created the original design, you can bet Lucas' stormtroop-- err, lawyers would be on him just as quickly as anyone else.

From a moral standpoint, Peter is the sole intellectual owner of the jacket's design. Unfortunately -- at least in the US (that I am aware of) -- he has no legal ground to enforce his ownership. I can't claim to know the film industry, but it sounds like a typical "work for hire" situation, and in a typical work for hire situation IP of the produced work is retained by the contractor (MBA or Lucasfilm), not the actual artist (Peter). The exact specifics of the contract may have been different, though, but given that Lucasfilm was perfectly free to hire a different vendor to produce the same jacket for subsequent films seems to support it.

Anyway, that said, I have no problem that there is a difference in the price of product from individual makers, largely because there is ultimately a different level of quality and workmanship, and because different makers also ultimately target different sub-markets (even within our own little hobby.)

Let's face it; Peter (and his shop) is a costumer for film and TV -- that's his bread and butter, and his target market. The jackets he makes for us are just icing on his cake. Now, I'm not trying to put Peter's work down (because I love my Wested, which I happen to be wearing right now), but consequently, his jackets are created with the same eye for detail as his wardrobe projects -- that is, if they look close enough on screen then they're good enough. Hence why there are variations between different Westeds. People buy Westeds because they want an "Indy-style" jacket from the original designer. It's the pedigree that's important to them (as long as the details are correct...) Peter is also willing to sell them to us at a very reasonable cost.

From what I understand (which admittedly is not much), Nowak is a custom jacket-maker first, which means he works with a tailor's eye for details. Consequently, his jackets are more consistent in fit and detail and arguably constructed more heartily. People buy jackets from Nowak because they want a custom-fit "Indy-style" jacket that's built to fit them well, is consistent in detail, and is built for the real world. That kind of work commands a higher price that some are willing to pay -- and more power to them.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:00 am

Please understand my point, as I tend to be vendor neutral. If someone offers a good product, I usually 'plug' it. From my understanding, one point that should be considered is that Peter did not take the Wilson's jacket and the Western Costumes mock-up and then create a whole new jacket from it, from the samples presented. He modified one of his existing James Dean jackets. This is why he is claiming intellectual property. The markets generally determine supply and demand, and they will usually dictate the success of a product.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:18 am

_,

Do you think of Tony Nowak as any other jacket maker, or do you perceive him as a special artist/designer who (because he is so special) can charge whatever he wants?

Because frankly, I don't think of him as much of an artist. Have you seen his Planet Hollywood jackets? They are laughing material.

Last year I was in Milan and saw some REALLY JAW DROPPING jackets. They were all priced around EUR 1000 or more but they all had excellent design and quality plus, only the name on the tag was enough to justify the price.

I don't think that TN (nothing against the man) not even in a million years can produce a jacket better than those in Milan. I don't want you to think I have something against TN, or I am a fan of Peter's. What I said above applies for all jackets around here i.e. Peter, G&B, TN USW and all others.

So it's for the reasons above that I think TN's price is not fair (I don't say that he is not entitled to charge whatever he wants).

And yes I would buy TN's jacket but I would not be as happy...

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:25 am

I tend to agree, copyrights tend to point to printed material, creative intellectual works produced on printed material, books etc.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:47 am

TN works alone, right? that means he can only make a limited ammount of jackets in a given period of time. Add to that material costs, rent or mortgage, electrical bills etc. etc. and you quickly arrive at a higher price for jackets. Add to that the fact that he isn't in this business for charity and you get the prices as they are.

You can disagree on his prices, but honestly, does anyone here actualy know what all of his expences are? I don't, so I don't complaint about it. If I could afford it, I'd allready have an Indy IV jacket and would certainly buy that Raiders jacket, but at the moment I can't. This is IMO no reason to complaint about his prices: he charges what he feels is right according to his circumstances and can't help it that I don't have enough money for it.

Regards, Geert

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:54 am

_ wrote:Again, the real value/cost = materials + overhead + the next best thing he could be spending his time doing. The later drives the true cost and value he MUST place on everything....

That's what I meant with not being in tis business for charity ;-)

Regards, Geert

Post by **Mike** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:36 am

_ wrote:Even at my "friends and family rate", I have forgone a conservatively calculated $150,000 for the jacket write-up. Where do I send the bill?

To Abner. Hey I just run this joint.

;-)

Post by **Mike** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:41 am

Oh, I'm keeping a tab. ;-)

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:51 am

I'm still picking the glass shards out of my sweater from the LAST brawl.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:01 pm

Helps pick my teeth at the same time, though. ;-)

Regards! Michaelson

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:52 pm

You know, all in all guys, I'm glad these vendors have extended their services to fans. Honestly, they don't really need us as such. Some are quite successful producing leather goods for film, while others produce for commercial and military contracts. Some vendors are fans, too, and have offered their services to you and me. I'd hate to see it in the reverse? We would have had to settle, until a fan would get tired of close but not accurate, and would have started his own leather goods co., do it the hard way, looking at frame by frame, to achieve that all too coveted SA look.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:01 pm

What do you think Lee Keppler practically did way back then? Before there was any jacket offering, he went in search of a vendor who could help him out for the sake of the fans. We're in a place in this hobby where we now have a wide array of vendors to choose from, regardless what piece of gear you're after! In the beginning, there hardly was any fan offering of gear available. It was largely because of the efforts of folks like Keppler, _, Michaelson, et al, that we're at the place we are now.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:05 pm

Hats off to the guys that came before us and did the legwork, etc!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:08 pm

Amen to that!

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:25 pm

Hear here!

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:26 pm

You've got to love Tony, when he called to finalize measurements on Indy I he actually gave me a quiz about how much I knew about original ie. zipper length and color, pocket flap shape, inside pocket etc....almost like you have to pass test before being admitted to the secret order.......Hatch

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:36 pm

I do plan to visit TN in the coming months, I'd really like a CS jacket and I'd like to at least look at his Raiders work.

Just need to find some excuse to visit Lala land. (sorry not going to QM)

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:14 am

Texan Scott wrote:Please understand my point, as I tend to be vendor neutral. If someone offers a good product, I usually 'plug' it. From my understanding, one point that should be considered is that Peter did not take the Wilson's jacket and the Western Costumes mock-up and then create a whole new jacket from it, from the samples presented. He modified one of his existing James Dean jackets. This is why he is claiming intellectual property. The markets generally determine supply and demand, and they will usually dictate the success of a product.

How different in design was the Wilson's jacket from the altered James Dean jacket, other than hide?

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:50 am

For what I know the Wilson jacket had no action pleats...

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:57 am

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:31 am

Thanks again _ for all the info.

This still looks like the NH jacket...
Anyone can point any differences?

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:42 am

PLATON wrote:
This still looks like the NH jacket...

I don't agree... They are very different to my eyes.

Post by **Mike** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:15 am

Biggest difference is it's not Vic wearing it. ;-)

JulianK · Post by **JulianK** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:31 pm

It would be very interesting to know whether the Novak 'original jackets' have a 'Bermans & Nathan' label or a 'Leather Concessionaires' label.

I know but I don't think I should be the one to spill the beans. I've actually touched it....but I think you should ask Tony.

Tollan · Post by **Tollan** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:29 pm

That sounds like a "yes" then...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:47 pm

Indiana Strones wrote:

Looks like it does, but a low back yoke, and not too deep pleats

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:10 pm

_ wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
Indiana Strones wrote:
Looks like it does, but a low back yoke, and not too deep pleats
The one on the right does not - that is the one that is actually in the gag...

The one on the right appears to have a narrow side strip, which I confused for a shallow pleat. It also looks padded or 'thick'
Which jacket is that?

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:13 pm

That is the wilsons? and it is thick looking because of the stunt padding under the jacket... It was also made of cowhide.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:17 pm

Man, you're calling the Phillies while we're watching the Sox...

I didn't say it is the NH jacket. I said that the details visible look like the NH jacket. I can't spot any great differences. The NH has a large yoke panel too.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:23 pm

No problem my friend.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:25 am

oh sweet indygear gods.....the TN raiders jacket....copied from 2 actual jacket sources from the movie. no more guesses on length, strap direction, buckles, yoke, pleats, pockets, flaps, gussets, facings, etc......no more guessing. what you will get came from the movie, period (customized to your size if need be). it's a premium price yes....but i think it will end my wested quest once and for all.....which will probably make the cost worth while.....peace of mind, not thinking that, "maybe, i need to raise the pockets 1/4" and put the pleat 1/2" shallower to make it look more SA"....no more guessing. to me, that'd be a priceless value in collecting gear and probably save me the cost of future wested customs.

one will argue....."that's exactly what G&B is offering"....and yes that is correct to some extent. but if you are a stitch nazi extremest like me, that's not good enough. i talked to Mr. Nowak on the phone whilst having the jacket on his table. we exchanged jacket trivia for a while and i came away quite excited as he'd confirmed alot of the specs that i was looking for. what i requested to him was, "i want my jacket to look exactly like the jacket you have there down to the imperfections and the size of stitches......pretend that you've been given the contract for raiders 2008 and bernie is asking you to reproduce this jacket EXACTLY....BERNIE.....that's what i would like; and you know how picky bernie is......

"...... mr nowak just chuckled, "yeah, i know how picky bernie is....."

{i'm paraphrasing to some extent as i made the call last week}

then again, 'priceless' comes with a big price tag......to me, i'm thinking its worth it. i'm going in boyz!!!! when you pass by me in the soup line next month, be sure to wave!!!! ;-)

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:47 am

I am very curious about this project myself.

anybody know what kind of Lambskin he will use? I mean I hope it is a strong and very durable one.almost a 1000 dollar jacket must have a quality strong and durable lambskin right?

or will he make the jacket in other hides as well if we request that? like goatskin?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:51 am

Indiana Holt wrote:I am very curious about this project myself.

anybody know what kind of Lambskin he will use? I mean I hope it is a strong and very durable one.almost a 1000 dollar jacket must have a quality strong and durable lambskin right?

or will he make the jacket in other hides as well if we request that? like goatskin?

it sounded like he had a couple of hide options when i spoke to him.....i recall him mentioning different types of lambskin specifically.....a clean surfaced hide and a hide with impurities iirc. however, i just said "exactly as what you see in your hands"....then the query was gone. he's going to call me to discuss further before i confirm the purchase.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:00 am

I think you can choose the hide you prefer.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:58 am

I'd want a jacket with improvements on the film version - that's why I went G&B. I hope Tony will offer goat as I would never choose lamb, I've never had a good experience with that hide.

Be great to finally see what the actual design is and from which screen used jacket it comes. It would be very funny if it was almost the same as G&B, except with a slightly longer zip.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:11 am

Indiana Holt wrote:I am very curious about this project myself.

anybody know what kind of Lambskin he will use? I mean I hope it is a strong and very durable one.almost a 1000 dollar jacket must have a quality strong and durable lambskin right?

or will he make the jacket in other hides as well if we request that? like goatskin?

I don't know i've seen lambskin jackets in Amsterdam priced 450 euros and higher and it didn't look that strong to me.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:12 am

I am waiting to see what I think are the most important aspects of the design i.e.

1. the arm pit to arm pit measurement
2. the body length
3. the sleeves circumference in the elbow area

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:08 am

Indiana G wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:I am very curious about this project myself.

anybody know what kind of Lambskin he will use? I mean I hope it is a strong and very durable one.almost a 1000 dollar jacket must have a quality strong and durable lambskin right?

or will he make the jacket in other hides as well if we request that? like goatskin?
it sounded like he had a couple of hide options when i spoke to him.....i recall him mentioning different types of lambskin specifically.....a clean surfaced hide and a hide with impurities iirc. however, i just said "exactly as what you see in your hands"....then the query was gone. he's going to call me to discuss further before i confirm the purchase.

hey G,can you ask Tony this question for me?

Piers · Post by **Piers** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:31 am

Indiana G wrote:but i think it will end my wested quest once and for all.....

then again, 'priceless' comes with a big price tag......to me, i'm thinking its worth it. i'm going in boyz!!!! when you pass by me in the soup line next month, be sure to wave!!!! ;-)

lmk if that washed goat you have becomes expendable

TONY NOWAK IS REPLICATING AN ORIGINAL RAIDERS JACKET!!

Tony Nowak to replicate Raiders Jacket