So, is this the 'Taper" I keep hearing about? -Christys

[JimL]

Yeah, I am aware of their offerings-

I was hoping for a version without the brim hook- the Akruba has the brim hook...

BUT I noticed anothe style, the Sombrero, which appears to be from the same block, but without the brim hook... I think it is a single brim too- I'm on the fence about that... Could be a good option if I can get it open crown (because they have a horible bash on it!)

[gwyddion]

Ah, ok. But I believe that I read in the thread about the Henry that Marc found the possible source for the rabbit felt used at the time Raiders was shot and that it came from Europe. According to him this was good rabbit felt. It's just that no hat-factory uses it to make Indy hats (well, appart from it being a part of the blend the Henry is made from I believe )

Regards, Geert

Don't know anything about this. If you can find more info I'm more than curious. I thought the raiders felt came from Brazil but again, Marc is a great digger, I wouldn't be surprised if he discovered that the raiders felt never came from there at all.

I searched the thread on the Henry and found the information on the felt. It was in a post Fedora did on the progress of finding a factory to produce the Henry. This is the entire post:

I had a bit of a snafu in regards to me having the hats made in America, one that I won't go into. But Marc picked up the ball and is moving along with it. From what I have been told offline, IF anyone can pull this off for Marc, it is the folks he is talking to currently.

And as always, we found out info in regards to who makes what, that floored the both of us. Marc MAY have found the original feltmaker for the Raiders fedora, and it ain't South America!! That always puzzled me, as I never saw any felt out of S.A. that was even close to the Raiders felt. We may take that same felt, and add 20 per cent beaver to it for a better quality hat, or we may eventually offer the original felt as an option. The possibilites are rather nice to dream about.

But the big thing is this factory that makes some upper end hats ALREADY has our ribbon in stock! We are hoping to be able to buy from these guys for our own hats so we don't pay such high prices for this ribbon.

And, if I am not giving too much away here, it seems this company ALREADY has our reverse engineered blockshape!!!! Both of us think this is what happened to the Raiders block. It never was at HJ!! It was with this small factory all along. The ones HJ used to use many years ago. Yeah, we are excited, but we have to wait to see the samples. The proof is in the pudding, but we found it strange that when he looked at one of our CS fedoras, he immediately said, they have that block on file. How weird is that? When asked if they made hats for HJ in 1980, the current guy did not know because he took over the operation AFTER that date, and doesn't have the old records of whom they sold to during this time period. But since these folks supplied many private labels for all of their history, it may very well be the original makers of the Raider fedora. The hat business is NOT what we used to think that it was. It is astounding how it works today, 2008. Fedora

I hope this makes some things clear about the statement I made regarding European felt.

Regards, Geert

[Kokopelli]

Hornet Hats replied to my email. They are forwarding it to Christy to see what they have to say about it. The guy at Hornet seemed pretty upset with it as well.

[Fedora]

Just a question for the felt experts, can a hat ,that shrank and tapered like citron´s , shrink and taper even more?

Short answer is yes.


My biggest complaint with HJs, Christies, and the rest that are made in this same factory is the low quality felt, that I think is derived not from the fur itself, but from the method of "felting" the body. One can take the same domesticated rabbit fur and actually make a decent hat from it. But, you have to run it through the felting machine more times. Apparently as with other companies, they are not felting the felt enough, taking a fast route to generate a hat body. The end result is a body that has not shrunk and tightened up enough, and of course it does this once you get it damp and it dries, AFTER the hat is made. This is the wrong way to properly make a hat. Sure, these hats can be cranked out by the hundreds, but in hatmaking, some things cannot be rushed up, IF you want a quality piece of headgear. It is as simple as that.


But with that said, all felt hats will eventually shrink and taper.(but generally not to the degree of a lessor felt) The better felted hats just take longer to do so. And as I have mentioned before, to my knowledge, NO felt maker, really ages the fur prior to using the fur to make bodies. My own feltmaker used to do so, but no longer does. Borsalino and Stetson were famous for this aging of the fur. Neither do it today. Got to make em fast to maximize profit. Producing high quality hats is no longer important, as long as the cosmetics work.

I have noticed with the Hjs that the degree of felting varies from run to run. I got in a dozen HJs for Magnoli several months ago that allowed me to use a 7 1/4 to make a 7 1/4. They must have had a new employee who ran the felt through the felting machine more times than specified, and the end result was a much more stable felt. The next shipment was back to the same old same o, same o. Very quick to shrink. Very unstable.


And this is the reason Marc has Portugal bodies sent in to the factory making our Henry. We trust Portugal better in consistency of felting.


The felt HJ, Christies and use today would have been unacceptable in the old days. Even the cheap, cost cutter hats or yore did not sink this low in quality.

If you want rabbit, buy an Akubra! It is the only rabbit hat today that I would spend a buck on. If you want a real deal high quality rabbit hat, look for a vintage Borsalino on ebay. It is a rabbit hat for which there is no whicher. The shrinkage and taper problem will not be an issue with a vintage Borsalino. And have you ever felt one of these mercury felted rabbit hats? The feel makes me salivate. Comparing an old Borsa to a new rabbit hat is daylight and dark. One begins to wonder if the rabbits have not changed their fur! But really what is missing is the pride the old hatmakers and factories exhibited in yesteryear. Pride has been replaced by the bottom line on the income statement. And you see this not only in hats but everything else made cheaply and fast. Most Chinese made goods found in walmart are junk. Even their needles that break very fast. I eventually had to go to ebay to buy vintage needles, made in the US, or in England. They will bend, instead of breaking. I was tired of buying a pack of China made needles every two weeks! I have used the same English made needle for 6 months.

One more thing, since I am kinda off topic. When I had to replace my vintage cloth measuring tape, I bought one made in China. Being suspicious of Chinese made goods, I put it against my USA made one, and the Chinese tape was off by a quarter of an inch!!!! So, back to ebay for vintage seamtress tape measures. My point is, hats are not the only thing suffering from maximizing profits. Fedora

[Bruce Wayne]

One more thing, since I am kinda off topic. When I had to replace my vintage cloth measuring tape, I bought one made in China. Being suspicious of Chinese made goods, I put it against my USA made one, and the Chinese tape was off by a quarter of an inch!!!! So, back to ebay for vintage seamtress tape measures. My point is, hats are not the only thing suffering from maximizing profits. Fedora

not saying that you are lying or anything, but how can a measureing tape be off by a quarter inch? where was it off at? the overall length?

[Kokopelli]

Fedora, you always teach me something! -This is why the Christy's was hold-over until I get my AdventureBilt!

[Erri]

Steve, with your avatar on the side of my eyes it always makes me think that it's God talking on the board from time to time

[Mitch LaRue]

Yeah, it does have a kind of a "Mount Sinai" look about it, doesn't it?
(And those little lines make it look like someone is speaking - maybe from "on high"...)
Cool... It'll definitely make folks pay attention when he speaks...

Mitch

[kiltie]

The "reborn" thread clearly shows I'm a fan of the Christys' and while mine can't hold a candle to my AkAd in terms of ruggedness, I haven't had such a dramatic change in mine, even after a bit of rain and consistant Texas heat/humidity. Yeah, I had to do some tweaking, but dang, that ( CitRon ) is a saaaaaad hat.
I've really been putting mine through the ringer lately ( kinda written it off, really ) just to see what it will take. Unfortunately, it would seem that I ended up with a decent hat, because it's holding up pretty well. I say unfortunately because, if I had just let it be, I probably would have had a pretty good, dressier hat for a while. Ah well. Pics of mine after rain, and light adventuring can be seen on the "reborn" thread.
I don't own any of Fedora's or Adventurebilt's products, and to be totally honest, I have to scratch my head at some of Fedora's posts ( personality gap...something ;-) ), but one thing I can certainly identify with is his passion for quality. That dedication and his desire to impart facts about his trade, the whys and wherefores of the demise of the modern, mass produced hat are priceless to anyone looking for quality.
I hope that Christys' attention to customer service makes up some for this shoddy product. Customer service is also something that has suffered considerably in this impersonal world ( another malady Mr. Delk appears to have risen above in his business ). Most of the vendors I've dealt with that are associated with this forum seem to have a genuine concern with the well being of their customer "community". I hope we can add Christys' to that list, as I am still a fan, investment to payoff ratio-wise.
Please keep us posted as this drama unfolds. I don't really expect anything good to come out of it. It would appear that quality business integrity lies within individuals like Mr. Delk and much smaller enterprises and not so much with the juggernauts of mass production ( who don't really need or care about your business ). When you find a big business that cares it's a pleasant surprise.

I can't even imagine why I just rambled on like that. Fedora - I really do scratch my head at some of your opinions - and what I think are opinions stated as fact - but your integrity, attention to detail, passion for quality, and genuine concern are unassailable.

[Erri]

Yeah, it does have a kind of a "Mount Sinai" look about it, doesn't it?
(And those little lines make it look like someone is speaking - maybe from "on high"...)
Cool... It'll definitely make folks pay attention when he speaks...

Mitch

I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that

Anyway this is my hat in my Scottish holidays (and holding great)
viewtopic.php?p=484755

I'm afraid to say that I'm starting to love rabbit felt again.

citRon I'm glad that Hornetshats is taking care of your case.

[BendingOak]

I have to say when it comes to Steve's opinion about the hat business and hat making. You should take it as fact. He has always been proven to be right. He;s been around the block a few times. ;-)

[kiltie]

He;s been around the block a few times.

Oak,

I sure hope you're not making reference to any of Fedora's "personal" business...
HAHAHA

[BendingOak]

He;s been around the block a few times.

Oak,

I sure hope you're not making reference to any of Fedora's "personal" business...
HAHAHA

No, take a look again at what i stated and get your minfd out of the gutter.



...and stay safe out there.

[kiltie]

Yeah -

I'm catchin' your vibe, and you're ( mostly ) right. I was making broad strokes with my generalizing brush. Not just any particular individual, but you know, any place like this is full of opinions and dissenters.

Anywho - back to the topic at hand ( let me not be accused of de-railing ):

[ANJALI]

A bit off topic Anjali, but where is a good source for a slouch hat now-a-days?

I am interested in a nice, dense slouch hat (with no brim hook) for adventure wear...

http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki-a ... -caps.html

ANJALI

[JimL]

I wonder if I asked Akruba directly if they'd offer a slouch hat with no brim hook...

Even the first war hat (normally worn flat) has the hook on there...

Thanks!

[binkmeisterRick]

Maybe, but it's not a Chrisy's suffering from taper. (hint hint ;-) )

[Kokopelli]

Maybe, but it's not a Chrisy's suffering from taper. (hint hint ;-) )

[Fedora]

not saying that you are lying or anything, but how can a measureing tape be off by a quarter inch? where was it off at? the overall length?

I dunno how, but Marc ran into the same thing! You don't notice the quarter of an inch error until you read it in the higher numbers. The last one started varying at the 14 inch mark, and gradually evolved into a 1/4 inch difference at 23 inches. Now, this could cause sizing problems with custom sized hats. Especially if the customer was measuring with a Chinese tape measure, and I am measuring with a USA made one that is dead on in accuracy.

I first noticed this Chinese tape deal when I first started selling hats. I had two tapes. One was an old cloth tape from my moms sewing kit.(still new in pack when I got it) One was a brand new Walmart bought tape, made in China. I would use them interchangably, and that is when I caught the discrepancy in accuracy. When I told Marc about it, he told me he had run into the same thing!!!

My vintage tape finally bit the dust, which sent me to other places besides walmart, but all sold the same chinese made tapes. One was under the reputable "Singer" name!!!!!! It was an eight of an inch off at 23 inches. I eventually had to buy a 120 inch long quilting tape, that was accurate, thank goodness. And cut it off to a workable length.

don't own any of Fedora's or Adventurebilt's products, and to be totally honest, I have to scratch my head at some of Fedora's posts ( personality gap...something ), but one thing I can certainly identify with is his passion for quality.

I am quite sure I have more than you scratching their heads, so you probably are in good company.

Some see me nothing more than a detractor of some brands of hats, but those that know me from the get-go, understand where and whence I am coming from. Years ago, after spending literally thousands of bucks on various hats, I felt like I was getting ripped off. I threw myself into studying the craft of hatmaking, the history, and spent alot of bucks on ebay buying up vintage hats that don't suffer from the taper problem.

I figured if I was to ever own a hat that I felt was worth the money, I had to use the best fur in that hat to pull it off. And that is why I went with pure beaver, as it is historically known to be hands down the best fur to construct a hat from. While realizing rabbit was used in the first 3 film hats. I had to make a tradeoff, of durabilty, over film accuracy. And did so. I don't regret it, although if I could find a stable, yet accurate rabbit felt, I would certainly offer that. Akubras are more stable than the other brands, but I would want something better than Akubra's rabbit. Not dissing Akubra now, so don't point fingers. But, I have seen vintage felt that was far superiour to anything out there today, in rabbit fur. Now, I was told by an old timer, and an Akubra fan, that like other hat factories, Akubra, years ago, changed something in their feltmaking. What? I have no clue, but have to assume they run their bodies fewer times through the felting machines today. You must understand that the number of times a body is run is very important in later shrinkage and taper. The hat body really does need to felt almost completely prior to stretching it out to make a hat. One way to increase productivity is to lessen the times spent on particular operations. I submit that all factories have sucumbed to this, and this is the reason unstable felt is used in probably 99 per cent of all factory hats made today. I don't exclude my own factory from this, by the way. The good thing about pure beaver, is that you can get away with this a little more, and the hat won't suffer as much as a rabbit hat would suffer at incomplete felting. Beaver, without the much needed mercury, (or whatever they currently use, perhaps hydrogen pyroxide)will still felt quite well, whereas, rabbit won't. It is a no brainer that the mercury treated rabbit hats of yore were felted much better than what one sees today. Nothing has yet replaced mercury at raising up the scales on fur as well. And this is very important. That beaver does not essentially require mercury is why it is a better fur to use today. But a real mercury made pure beaver hat, has no equals, and this was common knowledge once upon a time when men knew more of hats, and the felt used to make them. Probably more than most wanted to know, but there is a method to our madness. Fedora

[Mitch LaRue]

Steve, you are NEVER gonna write more than I want to know on this subject, so THANKS!

I often think "Wow, if the man only had more spare time he could/should write a BOOK"... But you know, bit by bit (and post by post) you kinda ARE!

Please, if someone says something on these boards that sparks an interest or a reaction in you (and if you can find the time) always know that there's guys - like me - on these boards who'll always want to read ANY amount of what you've got to say (even if you DO think it was "more than we wanted to know")!

(And that's coming from a guy whose got a rather "wordy" reputation, to begin with...)



Mitch

[BendingOak]

I for one always pay attention when Steve or Marc start talking about hat making. We all know how much I love their work. I always learn something knew every time I read one of these.

[JimL]

Well, I soaked my Christie's this weekend, allowed it to dry 'naturally' (after shaking it off and re-shaping after the shaking) and although it DID taper slightly, not nearly as bad as the first posted Christie's did!

Now, (and this is directed at the hat experts here) if my hat is re-blocked, would this reduce the tendency for shrinkage further, or just get it back in shape until the next shower?

I am under the impression that several re-blockings of a hat will eventiually 'stabilize' the felt to the point where it will not suffer taper in the rain. That's where I want to be... Although the Christie's is a 'dress' hat, there is no reason it could not be used for weather protection too. And other than this slight taper I now have I am quite pleased with the Christie's offering.

I would certainly love to have a vintage mercury felted beaver hat (or a new beaver hat) but simply cannot afford it. I also cannot afford re-blocking every month either. Will this end, or did I just wast my money on a Christies?

[JimL]

I got a couple (bad) pictures of my slightly tapered Christie's last night...

I think a reblock will revive it easily.

I will also add that the hat is SOOOOO much softer and 'flopier' now that it has been "washed".

Will it remain this soft after re-blocking? I sure hope so!

I also noticed the back of the brim was curling up a lot more than before the soaking, so I folded it between a towel and stream ironed it slightly. it is flatter, but now a bit bumpy as the stress was redistributed... Not a big deal at the moment...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... isties.jpg

And here is a photo after I bashed it the first time for reference- straighter, but not the best photo either...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... esbash.jpg

So, who do I go to for a reblock, rebash and ribbon change (I hate the Christie's bow)? I'd like one-stop shopping if I could...

[BendingOak]

The stiffener is still there and a re-block will re-activate it. what scares me about the Christy is how they machine stitch the sweatband, They go twice around and it's right at the brim break. It will be a high risk for ripping.

[Kokopelli]

Hornet emailed me back and asked for some more pictures, they say that Christy's want some more views of 'the damage'.
We'll see how this goes!

[DR Ulloa]

At least it wasn't a "Sorry about your hat, buddy. Better luck next time!" I really hope this works out for you.

Dave

[Montana Hannah]

Hornet emailed me back and asked for some more pictures, they say that Christy's want some more views of 'the damage'.
We'll see how this goes!

That's a small silver lining for you I suppose. Hopefully they'll take this seriously and make a stab at improving the quality in future. The Akubras have gone through 3 previous incarnations after all. From what I've read, a lot of the gear of yesteryear was less than satisfactory, and it's only due to the dedication and input of the fans that things have improved. Whether a company like Christy's pays any attention to the likes of us - well that's something else again.

I took my Christy's camping at the weekend, and it suffered no lasting damage. In fact it's improved a little. It didn't get the soaking I predicted, but sitting round the camp-fire it was subjected to alternate scorching heat and damp mist. I also smacked my head against low branches a few times while wearing it, which helped to add a bit of character I think! Despite having had a few - er- "wee drams", I did remember to pop the crown out before I went to bed, which may have helped stave off the taper.

Oh, and wood ash flakes make a good alternative to Fuller's Earth, on fedoras and leather jackets!

Hey! I'm now an Archaeology Student! Cool!

[Kokopelli]

Here's what I got from Hornet Hats just now:

Thank you for the new images and sorry for the delay in replying. Christys have now seen your latest images and say that they really need to see the hat in the flesh to get to the bottom of the problem. Obviously Hornets Hats would be happy to offer a refund or alternatively a replacement, but both options require receipt here of the original hat first. If either of these options are satisfactory, please return the hat to me at:

I wonder if I should give Christy's another try or get a refund and buy a Federation?

[binkmeisterRick]

You could give them another try in case your hat was a fluke, with the caveat that if the second hat responds the same way, that you would return the second hat for a refund.

[Kokopelli]

You could give them another try in case your hat was a fluke, with the caveat that if the second hat responds the same way, that you would return the second hat for a refund.

This is what I'm thinking as well. Mine had to be a fluke if others have had theirs wetted down to no ill effect. Mine felt like it had no stiffener in it at all, which may be part or all of the problem.
Maybe the 'stiffener' guy was on a break when it came through the line!

[DR Ulloa]

I think that giving the Christy's another try would be prudent. I have had no problems with my Christy's and it has taken light rain. If the second hat turns out the same then go with a Federation. No matter if you get the best hat in the batch, though, you will not get the ruggedness of the Federation, but it will look better. In my opinion, the Christy's is the best looking factory hat you can buy...aside from the Henry.

Dave

[eazybox]

I think that giving the Christy's another try would be prudent. I have had no problems with my Christy's and it has taken light rain. If the second hat turns out the same then go with a Federation. No matter if you get the best hat in the batch, though, you will not get the ruggedness of the Federation, but it will look better. In my opinion, the Christy's is the best looking factory hat you can buy...aside from the Henry.

Dave

I sign this statement.

Jack