Am I being too picky?

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:46 am

Ok, I am going to weigh in here and try to help sort things out..

1) Rundquist special treatment issue: I think you're a great guy, and am wholly indebted to you b/c of the sheer volume of G&B pics and guidance you posted to help me decide which jacket from G&B to order.

That being said, it you do seem get special treatment from G&B, IIRC you did get a Buffalo for testing before it was available to the public, is that not correct? I think that's where Blueskyz was going.

2) The jacket as nappa is non-refundable, but this doesn't preclude an exchange until the customer is satisfied.

I think Blueskyz did make an effort to deal with G&B, but perhaps could have followed up more aggressively. He did mention he has family issues, so perhaps did not have the time to do so, so this is a gray area.

What is important at this point, is that we all calm down and help determine if indeed the collar is incorrectly stiched, folds incorrectly, and/or was measured and cut improperly. To help in this regard, I have measured the collar of my goatskin G&B and carefully examined the stitching.

3) Collar waviness: At the corners of the collar where it is longest, it is 2 7/8" at each corner, and 2 1/4" inches at the middle on the back of the collar where there is a vertical seam.

The "waviness" of the collar is not an issue by itself, you can only really tell if there is a problem if you fold the collar and examine the entire collar from the jacket back. When my jacket's collar is upright ala the Fonz, it is wavy and looks like it isn't going to be even when folded over, but when I fold the collar it works, almost perfectly.

4) Stitching: looking at Blueskyz' first 2 photos in this thread, there is no question that to the right of the G&B label the stitching dips down. I checked my Expo and the stitching is more "level", but cannot be perfectly flat because the jacket is built for a person who is round. (Think of it like laying a map of the world out, there will be some distortions because of this.)

I guess the bottom line Blueskyz, is whether the non-linear stitching job will impact the strength, stability and durability of the collar. Since it will never be seen by anyone as it is on the inside, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis as to whether it is worth pursuing it.

I am not a stickler as others here, so for me, just the fact that you got a totally exclusive hide that is special - noone else has it - would be pretty attractive for me, but we each have our own tolerances.

If this is going to bother you knowing the imperfection is there, keep going up the ladder until you get someone who will work with you there. The photos clearly show IMO stitching that is imprecise; it is up to you whether you want to pursue this issue, and how willing G&B is to work with you to accept an exchange of a worn jacket.

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:24 am

Hola All, I am just having issue with the collar to collar stand area,nothing else.I would like to see some G&B owners ,if they have time,post some pic's of their jackets in this area as below. This is another members jacket and I would be so happy if mine looked like that..............disregard the red boxes,they are from his post and are not related to this post. I am merely looking for examples of G&B quality work that is missing from my jacket.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:16 am

Honestly, blueS, and I'm saying this in a respectful way, I believe you're just beating a dead horse.

If we were looking at photos of a factory fresh jacket, just received, we'd have something to dissect....but we're looking at photos of a used jacket, and worn over several months. There's no TELLING if what we're looking at is something that occured at the factory, or just occurred from regular wear and use.

We have seen THOUSANDS of jacket photo closeups over the years, and I can't tell a thing looking at yours that doesn't look like any other used jacket closeup I've seen over and over again, and of jackets made by every jacket maker out there.

I'm not going to offer any advice, but quite honestly I think you're spinning your wheels on this one.

JMO.

Regards! Michaelson

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:26 am

The defects I'm referring to have NOTHING to do with the 'wearing' of this jacket. They are from G&B, who admitted they were bad and have not satisfied me with their answers or attitude. I am not one to belabor a point but I am only ,and have been from day one,trying to get G&B to resolve. I started this post and have seen and heard alot of opinions,and I'm sure that if yourself or any other member of this forum were to have rec'd this jacket they would have said 'What the heck??' I just spent alot of money,been very patient,been verbally abused both here and Gibson and Barnes,AND I still have the same opinion of G&B,they are a top knotch outfit. I want this issue resolved so NO other member or ordinary customer gets the shody work I have had to deal with.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:32 am

No argument there, my friend, but as many have also asked, why did you wiat for 4+ months after the fact to post all this? In all cases I'm personally aware of, folks have screamed bloody murder and posted photos immediately upon the arrival of a jacket that they considered inferior.

If you've been waiting that long on a vendor to offer you satisfaction, you have a lot more patience than 99% of the rest of this crew.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:02 am

As an afterthought:

Indygear does not operate as a liason between vendors and community members. That's not what we're here for, as all we provide is information regarding items in order for registered (and non-registered members in the public areas) to make educated decisions regarding items for sale.

This has been an odd situation, as rarely do we ever read or hear of problems regarding G&B products. We have regarding customer service in the past, but not to this extreme.

BlueSkies, I know Dave Marshall. I know that G&B keeps IMPECCIBLE records regarding who spoke to whom, what was discussed, and what was done from custom order customer to customer. They do this to keep a complete record when it comes to dealing with custom order customers regarding possible future orders.

If you want, and with your public permission, I'll be more than happy to try and contact Dave and see if he will give me the order of what exactly ocurred, in chronological order, and exactly what was done, as well as what was discussed to get you to where you are today....and then I'll post it here so folks can see what ocurred.

That might help you, if something occurred as a glitch in their system they can address help them, and help others to understand what happened during the process.

What do you think of this possibility?

I have no idea if Dave will even share customer information like this.....but if he sees what you've posted (and I'll send him a link), and has your personal, public permission to do so, G&B might consider doing it.

Just a passing thought....

Regards! Michaelson

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:11 am

No problem from me. However he was the one who gave me the grief..........
And Travis is gone.........he had the whole low down on this.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:15 am

Regardless, the information still exists in their records, no matter who is left at the company.

I'll look into it tomorrow.

Regards! Michaelson

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:35 am

Michaelson wrote:Honestly, blueS, and I'm saying this in a respectful way, I believe you're just beating a dead horse.

If we were looking at photos of a factory fresh jacket, just received, we'd have something to dissect....but we're looking at photos of a used jacket, and worn over several months. There's no TELLING if what we're looking at is something that occured at the factory, or just occurred from regular wear and use.

We have seen THOUSANDS of jacket photo closeups over the years, and I can't tell a thing looking at yours that doesn't look like any other used jacket closeup I've seen over and over again, and of jackets made by every jacket maker out there.

I'm not going to offer any advice, but quite honestly I think you're spinning your wheels on this one.

JMO.

Regards! Michaelson

Hi Michaelson, good morning. 2 things at work here:

1) yes, Blueskyz wan't pro-active about addressing the jacket issues, but he explained he had family issues, and second, it sounds like he "hemmed and hawed" about whether he should take action, given the fact he'd already spent $60-80 in return shipping already.

2) to my untrained eye, the stitching work in his pictures are not even, a situation that is unrelated to his wear of the jacket.

Bottomline, Blueskyz, I am not sure if it makes sense to pursue with G&B, but if it was me that had gone this far - and then had someone from there give you that BS attitude, I might feel if I went this far, I might as well go to the end.

Anyhoo, here are alot of pictures that will hopefully give you a nice comparison of workmanship. I think they did a superb job on mine, and even using a magnifying glass could only find 2 stitches not perfectly straight:

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1876.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1877.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1881.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1884.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1885.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1886.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1888.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0_1889.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... G_0002.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... G_0003.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0005-1.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0006-1.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... 0007-1.jpg

Bardoon · Post by **Bardoon** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:02 pm

Blueskyz, I hope you can get your situation worked out and bob up there is giving you some additional ammo right there to fire off to G&B. Save those photos of his and e-mail them along with yours for a comparison!

These leather jackets are EXPENSIVE and for what we all pay for them we should GET WHAT WE WANT in my opinion. My two Wested jackets are the most expensive pieces of clothing I own.

G&B has a history of quality work, many people here have claimed that and bobjones' photos prove that they can get the sewing right.

Blue, if they don't call you back Monday, call them back Tuesday. Stay on them.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:53 pm

Thanks Bob, but I have fully followed what has been said, and what has been displayed in photos. The time lag and photos shown are still of a jacket that has been worn, and that a period of 4 months passed, so the 'two items' you point out are items one can't get around, in spite of the reasons.

There are always two sides to a story too, and in this case all we've heard is the one side.

Like I said, I'll see if anything is offered to me info wise. Not promising a thing, but at least I can ask.

Regards! Michaelson

JC1972 · Post by **JC1972** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:19 pm

If I knew there was a problem with an item, I would not wear/use it until the issue was resolved. This way it could not be held against me. I could not see a problem; I know I'm new but I asked Blueskyz if the issue could be seen while worn and I think another member said that it could not. So if that's the case, I don't know what the big problem is then.

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:10 pm

JC1972 wrote:If I knew there was a problem with an item, I would not wear/use it until the issue was resolved. This way it could not be held against me. I could not see a problem; I know I'm new but I asked Blueskyz if the issue could be seen while worn and I think another member said that it could not. So if that's the case, I don't know what the big problem is then.

It is stitching on the inside of the collar, so it cannot be seen from the outside. But...Blueskyz is alluding to the emotional discomfort of knowing he spent significant money on a dream jacket, and he wants it to be perfect. So if he is wearing it, you and I may not see it, but he knows its there.

I can relate to this, though I am not sure everyone else can. That is his quandary, how far to pursue "perfection" in the face of so many challenges. I personally would probably not do so unless I felt that the durability of the coat is in question.

As for Michaelson' plan to approach G&B, I really cannot see them divulging information like this on a customer, but its worth trying...

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:30 pm

First things first. Let me give you a background on my recent relationship with BlueSkyz. BlueSkyz has pm’d me multiple times over the last month or so, specifically asking me for pictures of one of my Expedition collar stands. Whatever the reason he wanted them for, I really wanted no part of. Needless to say, I never sent him the pictures. Still, he never got the hint. He kept pestering me, like a child that complains until he gets his way. So yeah, I’m a bit peeved that here I am on a Sunday, spending half of my day on this garbage. Now that I've got that out of the way, on to my points and pics.

Some of you have taken issue with me for calling out BlueSkyz with regards to his pics. Perhaps I could have been “nicer”. Still, they just looked weird to me. In one of his pics, he has an arrow pointing to the tip of his collar stand where the stitching looks perilously close to the edge and yet in another picture (at another angle) you can clearly see that this is not the case. Yet BlueSkyz has an arrow pointed at the area as if it were a real defect.

I got to looking at my collar stands and what I quickly realized is that they are all sewn in a curvature. The collar is supposed to hang around your round neck. If you lay the collar straight, as in BlueSkyz’s pics, you see all kinds of optical illusions. Now this is not to say that BlueSky’s collar is a shining example of G&B’s best work. But it does fall in the parameters of “acceptable” for G&B, myself, and for some on this board. Not everyone feels that way, as expressed by BlueSkyz and others on this board. The big question is why did it take BlueSkyz’s so long to resolve this issue? I’ll tell you why. It is my opinion that he wants one of the new buffalo hide jackets. He expressed this in a pm to me (that he wants a buffalo jacket, not his reason for trying to return his old jacket). The other question is why would somebody go back to a company that produces a product that they were continually dissatisfied with?

Lastly, about the comments that I get special treatment by G&B. You guys can believe whatever you want to believe. Frankly, I don’t care what you think. I paid for every single jacket that I’ve ever gotten from G&B. The idea that I got some free “test” buffalo jacket is plain wrong. I paid in full for it. Yeah, I knew the hide was coming before most of you. I got rid of my old russet expedition months ago in preparation for this jacket. I got the first one. So what? Sue me.

These patch shots illustrate some difficult stitching. Round is hard. The stitching on the original WW2 models were all over the place. Gibson & Barnes made all three for me. All three were acceptable to me and G&B (or they wouldn’t have sent the jackets out). All three are different.

http://images40.fotki.com/v1302/photos/ ... 017-vi.jpg
http://images41.fotki.com/v1306/photos/ ... 014-vi.jpg
http://images38.fotki.com/v1270/photos/ ... 016-vi.jpg
For Fun:
http://images39.fotki.com/v1294/photos/ ... 039-vi.jpg

Now the collar stand on an expedition takes a lot of skill to produce. It’s harder than an A-2 collar because it’s done in leather not cloth.
http://images39.fotki.com/v1283/photos/ ... 066-vi.jpg

Someone pointed out earlier that their US Wings jacket had no wavering stitching on its collar stand. Well, it’s not the same as one on an Expedition. A Wings collar stand has got a much simpler construction. Unfortunately I couldn’t get a hold of one of my old Westeds for reference. (I have Expedition & US Wings reference comparison pics I’ll put up tomorrow in a new thread).
http://images41.fotki.com/v1307/photos/ ... 001-vi.jpg
http://images38.fotki.com/v1274/photos/ ... 002-vi.jpg
http://images40.fotki.com/v1303/photos/ ... 004-vi.jpg

I don’t have an expedition with a stitch wave on the collar stand quite as pronounced as BlueSkyz’s. However, I don’t believe that his jacket is as bad as he (or his pics) make it out to be. If he were to round his collar stand out (like when wearing the jacket), his stitch waver wouldn’t be so pronounced. Anybody can take pics that don’t tell the whole truth. Always remember that you're looking at something in 2 dimensions on this board.

Straight
http://images38.fotki.com/v1270/photos/ ... 007-vi.jpg
http://images38.fotki.com/v1272/photos/ ... 028-vi.jpg
Laid properly with curve
http://images38.fotki.com/v1271/photos/ ... 027-vi.jpg

Buffalo:
Straight
http://images41.fotki.com/v1308/photos/ ... 057-vi.jpg
Laid properly with curve
http://images40.fotki.com/v1301/photos/ ... 036-vi.jpg

Pic to illustrate the curvature factor:
http://images41.fotki.com/v1306/photos/ ... 037-vi.jpg

Black:
Straight
http://images39.fotki.com/v1294/photos/ ... 056-vi.jpg
Laid properly with curve
http://images38.fotki.com/v1277/photos/ ... 054-vi.jpg

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:53 pm

Thank you for the great pictures! It just shows me that it can be done. And #### yes I want a buffalo jacket,along with probally everyone else who reads this,but I'm not going to spend another penny till they can assure me the quality that you have shown me is possible. If any one of the collar stands of my jackets looked like that I'd be just fine. So look at all the pictures from Bob and Rund then compare them with my origional pictures and it might be more clear as to what my 'workmanship' issues are about. Then tell me if I'm still to picky.

JC1972 · Post by **JC1972** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:47 am

bobjones wrote:
JC1972 wrote:If I knew there was a problem with an item, I would not wear/use it until the issue was resolved. This way it could not be held against me. I could not see a problem; I know I'm new but I asked Blueskyz if the issue could be seen while worn and I think another member said that it could not. So if that's the case, I don't know what the big problem is then.
It is stitching on the inside of the collar, so it cannot be seen from the outside. But...Blueskyz is alluding to the emotional discomfort of knowing he spent significant money on a dream jacket, and he wants it to be perfect. So if he is wearing it, you and I may not see it, but he knows its there.

I can relate to this, though I am not sure everyone else can. That is his quandary, how far to pursue "perfection" in the face of so many challenges. I personally would probably not do so unless I felt that the durability of the coat is in question.

As for Michaelson' plan to approach G&B, I really cannot see them divulging information like this on a customer, but its worth trying...

If that's the case, then I have to say that's picky. On a jacket that was worn for a few months on something that cannot be seen. To me its not worth the hassle, regardless what was spent. Now...if it can be seen then that's a different story. But again, if there was any issue I would not have worn it until the issue was resolved.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:34 am

That buffalo jacket is quite nice. Personally, I see some waves in Rudquist's examples, but BlueSkyz' seem obviously worse to me. Still, there seems to be a range of stitch "accuracy" that I could see bothering some people.

What mystifies me is that there are FOUR jackets involved in this situation, and everyone is fixated on the one he wore.

Allow me to suggest doing this to clear the discussion pallet; Let's just throw all concern about that worn jacket away. Pretend it doesn't exist. What are we left with? Are there still issues?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:37 am

I'm not exactly sure how that can be done, Chewy. The entire thread has been one regarding return issues as WELL as perceived quality issues. In this case, the jacket being discussed for return is LONG past the return date, and is USED!

What businesses are you aware of that clearly states it's return policy from the get-go, still worked with a client LONG past that return policy even though they didn't have to, is STILL asked to accept a jacket back that is now used and can not be resold.....and is now catching flack for it in an open public forum that they are not a member of and cannot reply to themselves?

After some re-reading of this entire thread, I guess that is what is bothering me about all this.

I've sent Dave an email. I'll let you know what he says if and when he replies.

Regards! Michaelson

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:44 am

I have NEVER asked G&B to take back the jacket. This whole thread has gotten twisted around and has really gotten off track.G&B has been more than accomidating to me and that was not my initial question. Would you accept a sew job like they gave me?[ 3 times????] thats the question,not any of the other stuff that has been belabored to death here. As you can see from the pic's posted above,G&B still does awesome work. The guy that sews the collar stands must have been on holiday when my jackets were made.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:04 am

Why in the name of heck would you want to spend another dollar with this company? Even if everyone else has had a great experience you have not.

Personally, I could care less about a buffalo jacket - certainly not in the color I saw.

There are plenty of other jacket makers out there to choose from. It's starting to get amazing how many electrons have been bashed over this.

I see an ugly line of stitching in his jacket. Period. It doesn't look good and I wouldn't be thrilled with this on a jacket that cost around $500.

Why are others seeming to say there is no wave in that line of threads? It's there. No question. But it also wouldn't be the end of the world - it's a jacket for heck's sake. If I didn't like it I'd either eat it or try to sell it to get something back. What I would probably do is WEAR IT because I don't see how it affects anything as it's not going to show when wearing.

If you post a photo where it looks bad when it's being worn than I may say different. But as it is now it seems like one flaw in an otherwise fine jacket.

I have no idea how he wants this resolved. If I were G&B there is NO WAY I would offer any sort of refund, exchange, etc. after a jacket has been worn and is several months old. If it had been sitting in a box because the owner was away, had a crisis, etc. it might be a different story. I also wouldn't do business with a customer who has returned several items over a short period. That's not to say Blue was wrong or acted in a silly manor, only looking at it from a business point of view and what they might think is a problematic customer.

But what does the wife or girlfriend or significant other think of all this? For me, that's the acid test - I can quickly realize when I'm acting like a clown about something when someone who can see the reality of things let's me know! And that probably goes the other way at times, too.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:53 pm

BlueSkyz wrote:Thank you for the great pictures! It just shows me that it can be done. And #### yes I want a buffalo jacket,along with probally everyone else who reads this,but I'm not going to spend another penny till they can assure me the quality that you have shown me is possible. If any one of the collar stands of my jackets looked like that I'd be just fine. So look at all the pictures from Bob and Rund then compare them with my origional pictures and it might be more clear as to what my 'workmanship' issues are about. Then tell me if I'm still to picky.

Not to ad fuel to the fire, but my pictures were not confirmation of anything. I showed examples of how pictures can be twisted to show different things. I’ve repeatedly said that although there is a slight stitch wave in one isolated area of your jacket, your pictures made “the problem” out to be worse than it actually is. That’s why I have multiple examples showing perceived flaws that disappear when the jacket is laid properly. As usual, you and to some degree this community, seem to have missed my point. Beyond that, your jacket is acceptable to many on this board and to the manufacturer. If it’s not “good” enough for you, it’s not good enough for you, period. You just should have returned it.

PS- I may be wrong, but I doubt that anybody else sells a jacket with as intricate a collar as the expedition (which I tried to show as well).

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:58 pm

BlueSkyz wrote:

Nobody's mentioned that BlueSkyz's has an arrow pointed to the tip of his collar stand (as if it were a flaw), when clearly it isn't.

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:05 pm

Aren't they two different jackets? I can't see the G&B tag on one.
I don't know, I may be wrong....

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:06 pm

Pictures are of jacket # 4 And #3,both having defects in the same area. {thank you for finally noticing the difference}As I've said before this post has gotten off track.I have seen as well as own acceptable products. G&B themselves admitted these area's were unacceptable on the jackets in question.
Honestly I have not meant to upset the old apple cart here but I do not want anyone else to pay this much for something that should look like the fine examples Bob and Rund have shown and doesn't,thats all. Anything else is between G&B and myself.

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:26 pm

Maybe the wavey line of stitching is S.A.?!?!

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:28 pm

My mistake. Without the pics being labeled though, it’s easy to see why I made that mistake. Still, if you are continually dissatisfied with a product, why keep coming back? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Rundquist wrote:Still, if you are continually dissatisfied with a product, why keep coming back? It makes no sense whatsoever.

I guess this is what I don't get either. I'm not sure what you want G&B to do for you.

I appreciate you pointing out the flaw though. Any info helps people make a better decision when spending that much money.

BlueSkyz · Post by **BlueSkyz** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:34 pm

I want them not to send you or anyone else who buys one,a substandard[for G&B,formerly Flight Suits] jacket with workmanship that I've received,thats it. Bottom line! I said this thread was off track........

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:40 pm

This is very interesting.
Before I'd even considered ordering a Wested, I was very close to ordering a G&B.
The Wested's I'd dismissed after hearing they were being made somewhere other than the UK. I've since learned this is only the case with certain OTR items. My two customs have the Union Jack.

But G&B were the flawless reproduction, I kept hearing.
I guess that isn't the case, always.
They do look a nice, solid jacket though.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:40 pm

Though very much appreciated, Skies, so far yours is the only one I've seen demonstrated to have a 'problem'. As far as I can tell, yours seems to be an insolated incident rather than a sudden drop in quality at G&B.

We've had several new G&B owners post of receiving their jackets in the last few weeks that were estatic at what they got, so I'm not real sure what more this thread is going to accomplish, other than to continue to address YOUR specific situation.

As per our conversation of yesterday, and your posted 'green light' to pursue it, I sent an email to G&B regarding this situation. I'm awaiting their response, and have asked them to forward it to the webmaster so he can post it so everyone can see what is going on. If there is indeed a problem, it deserves to be aired.

They might tell me to 'pound sand', but we'll see.

Regards! Michaelson

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:49 pm

I does concern me though, that a return-customer like 'Skyz should be treated so harshly by the company he has supported so well in the past.
Long before I'd purchased any jacket, I remember his 'scuba-diving' avatar from posts praising the quality of the G&B Expedition.
This could have been avoided so easily, had the company been a bit nicer to an obviously loyal customer.
It's the old awful saying in retail; It takes months to win a customer, seconds to lose one.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:43 pm

I wonder if this is really an isolated incident or more of this is going on, and no one really pays that much attention to their stitches.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:03 pm

They don't? You haven't been around this joint very long, have you?

Regard! Michaelson

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:11 pm

I think the problem is partly how one perceives the purpose of stitches on a leather jacket. Are they meant to be noticeable, attractive details in themselves, adding to the jacket's look? Or are they meant to be "invisible" fastenings not intended to be looked at - their function of holding the jacket together being the only thing that matters?

In my experience, I've found you can drive yourself mad by looking too closely at the finer details. Even the most expensive items will have imperfections if you look hard enough. Life's too short to spend a lot of time procrastinating about this kind of thing, so I try to make a point of reminding myself that, as I'm far from perfect myself, it is unfair of me to expect it of the things that I buy. It's easier said than done, though, and I will no doubt continue to drive myself mad scrutinizing future purchases.

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:30 pm

Here is a little cowboy logic…… since you asked . As has been stated many times........when you wait too long all the bargaining is off the table. Had you sent it back before wearing it (supposing that they would receive it back), they could have sold it at a discount but no one in his right mind would purchase it now after 3-4 month.

Personally, it seems with your post Bluz that you wanted to complain got called on the carpet and now are trying to get out of it. Of course I wonder never expect you to admit that and I guess that I could be wrong.

No one should be deceived, G&B is one fine jacket...you pay for it but the overall value is there. I would take it or wings any day for durability sake.

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:33 pm

BlueSkyz wrote:Thank you for the great pictures! It just shows me that it can be done. And #### yes I want a buffalo jacket,along with probally everyone else who reads this,but I'm not going to spend another penny till they can assure me the quality that you have shown me is possible. If any one of the collar stands of my jackets looked like that I'd be just fine. So look at all the pictures from Bob and Rund then compare them with my origional pictures and it might be more clear as to what my 'workmanship' issues are about. Then tell me if I'm still to picky.

Blue, am I reading you right? You were raving just recently about the nappa cow. What changed your mind about the cow, assuming it was something beside the stitching? IMHO, I like the dark nappa cow better than the buffalo, but to be perhaps too blunt, are you using the stitching as an excuse to just trade in for the buffalo now that it has come out? Is that the case?

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:51 pm

Michaelson wrote:They don't? You haven't been around this joint very long, have you?

Regard! Michaelson

Ok, your right I've never seen such a group of nitpickers and perfectionists, and I mean that with thorough respect, but it just seems strange that this is the only jacket that exists with such "defects" or inconsistencies.

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:15 pm

It just could be that this is the first real concern over that kind of thing - me I like to get my jackets and use/abuse em --but others like to wear them as a dress jacket and that's fine too. If I wore mine as a dress jacket I would be concerned about the details to stitching-but as a rugged wearer I don't look at the stitching that close - as long as it can hold up to the abuse.

Post by **COW Admin** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:13 pm

As there are two sides to every story, and as assumptions are starting to be made about G&B's practices, David Marshall felt compelled to answer for his company. Below is his quoted response:

Dave Marshall wrote:A few months after we started to make the Expedition jacket, I was forwarded a call one late afternoon by one of our sales people saying she had a gentleman who had some questions about the jacket.

He inquired about all facets of the jacket, where we copied from, etc., etc. At one point he asked a blunt question, ‘What do you think of the Wested jacket?”…I thought for a second and replied ‘it is a fine, well made quality jacket’. The man asked me if I knew who he was; I had no idea at all. ‘I’m Peter Botwright of Wested.’

I was tickled pink to get a call from the Man, the legendary Peter B., I really was.

In conversation I mentioned that some people do have ‘Vendor Preference’, which comes naturally. We’ve had our teeth kicked in by Wested aficionados, and visi-versa, but that does not mean he and I should be enemies; there is a place in the market for a $100 A-2 as well as one for $1000.

We had a very pleasant chat with offers both ways to visit and have a good dinner together when the opportunity arose.

Now, to the subject at hand.

We do not open a customer’s file to the public, however as has been mentioned on the thread, I can discuss some known facts. We sold the first jacket to Blue about 6-7 months ago; that one was returned and we recut a second one. A couple of months later we got another order and sent the jacket out to him. Blue was not happy with it, Travis (the original customer service rep to handle this account) had another one recut and sent out. That one was not satisfactory either. Travis passed that onto Dan (Sales Manager) and after a couple of calls from Blue, and in order to please a customer, he had a second one recut, and explained that this was to be the very last one; besides, a non standard jacket was not returnable, even though we recut two. This brings us to the present situation.

Multiple phone calls and e-mails to Drew (the salesman who took over Travis’ accounts when he left) did not get the results Blue wanted. He even offered to send both jackets back for us to put in our clearance section, with the intent of using that money towards a new Buffalo jacket.

Why would someone who has had so many problems with a vendor, still want another jacket?

Not getting anywhere with Dan or Drew, he sent a strong and nasty e-mail stating that our quality was shabby and that he could get a better made jacket made in China from Wal Mart, and so on.

When he called last week for Dan or Drew who were not in, he asked for me.

It was a polite conversation, and to his credit there was no foul language or raising of voices, either way. I explained that we have had the same leather team for years. When the slow summer months come around, most factories lay off people for lack of work; not us, we are diversified enough that we keep our people busy continuing to make a good salary. We also realize that once you lay off good artisans, you risk not having the talent when the season picks up.

I explained that these are hand made, and we do give it our very best to put out a good product and take care of our customers, and that obviously, we could not make a jacket that would please him. I might as well have been talking to the wall. He wanted to know what we were going to do about his problem.

Seeing that I was helping him beat a dead horse over and over, I explained (politely) that the bottom line concerning the two jackets stands at this point:

• Jacket number one was 7 months old. That makes it history.
• Jacket number two had been recut twice, was a custom leather non returnable order as stated when he purchased the jacket, and it was four months old. That makes this one too, history.
• I did however tell him he was very welcome to place an order for a buffalo Expo, and if upon receipt he was not pleased with it in any way, please return it for a full refund.

He had been offered the opportunity to return the jacket for a full refund, which he refused. There is a difference between Rude and being politely Firm. But, not getting things their way, some people can’t tell the difference.

Now, I guess this constitutes an arrogant attitude, rudeness, and lack of follow up to take care of our customers.

Further investigation shows that the first jacket he purchased, he hated so much that he returned it. We then recut another one for him. Dan got a call from Blue wanting to know what would happen to the returned jacket. He was told it would go to clearance at a reduced price. He wanted to buy it at the reduced price of $249. Dan said he’d break the rules just once. Yes, the recut jacket was retuned and he was refunded for it. Then we have a custom dark seal goat (receipt was clearly marked: Dear customer, we regret that we are unable to refund or exchange custom made items, Thank you for your order. We do have everything documented.

We bent backward several times, broke our own rules, and now this is where we are. We did lose money dealing with Blue.

What lead us to go for the buffalo leather??

When we heard that Indy IV was in the works, we tried all avenues, to be considered as a possible supplier. We chose a very special leather that would set a new direction for Indy’s jacket. The buffalo skin. I sent three swatches to get insiders’ opinion on the skin. Rundquist fell in love with it and asked if when the time came he could order one for himself. I told him we were a long way from that point, but should we decide to try the skin out, we’d be glad to consider it.

Is Rundquist a special customer? Yes, but no more than any of you. Did he get a ‘Test’ jacket? No, he bought one.

Living somewhat close to us, he visits us on occasion with some of his Indygear friends. We do show them around, even had lunch together on occasion. That is not special treatment, we offer the same to all our visiting customers.

It is sad that when someone yells WOLF, some people blindly get on board without looking and thinking for themselves.

The liberal warrantee and return policy that Flight Suits had pioneered for years, has been greatly abused, and had to be revised to the current status. It is the very few among you that have screwed it up for the many of you.

Example. One of your members wanted a jacket recut because he said the lower back flap was ¼” too wide on either side. Another, after two recuts had sent in a 32 item check list he wanted every one who worked on his jacket to check their portion of the work. I could go on for quite a while with this.

A hobby is a great thing to have, however, when one loses prospective and reality, it no longer is a hobby, it becomes a serious problem.

In closing, I would like to commend Blue for taking care of his 82 year-old mom, bless her heart. In this day and age when kids can’t wait to dump their parents in an old age home, I take my hat off to Blue and give him 100 out of 100 for this.

We will not respond to any feedback on this. It is now a closed subject. The rest of you, consider the events described. At least this is our side (documented) of the story.

Thanks.
Dave on behalf of Gibson and Barnes.

Now both sides have had their say. Draw whatever conclusions you choose, but we need to make one thing clear, we need to stop the conjecture that may lean towards libel, but most importantly lets not start flaming…in either direction.

COW Admin

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:40 pm

Sounds like the final words has been spoken. This clears up a lot and I praise G&B for stating their position.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:21 am

Agreed. Almost 14 hours have passed and no further comments on the topic, so I believe we can stick a fork in this. We're done.

Let's ring down the curtain on this one, folks.

Regards! Michaelson

Am I being too picky?

Re: Am I being too picky?