Typical of Goat hide?

[bobjones]

I haven't worn my G&B goat much as of yet (its still high 80s/low 90s up here in the Northlands) but I have tried to wear around the house as much as I can given the heat, and I noticed something, particularly on the collar.

It seems that the hide on the fold of the right-side of the collar where it bends, when I straighten it out, has gotten seemingly very soft, and if I dare say the texture seems to have weakened. I am not good at describing this, but it almost seems like the goat hide on the collar is different, less stiff, than elsewhere on the jacket.

For instance, when I squeeze or bend the jacket elsewhere, it snaps back to its original stiffness and doesn't get really creased or softer. But when I do so to the right-hand section of the collar, it stays creased, and noticeably softer than the hide on the rest of the collar, and certainly the body and sleeves of the rest of the jacket. Is it possible that the hide for the collar could be a lesser cut, or is this endemic to goat?

I have not owned a goatskin jacket before, only cow and horse, I was wondering if this is a unique feature to goat where it gets much softer when bent/folded. Has anyone else, whether they own a G&B goat or other manufacturer, experienced this?

[CM]

Goat will eventually go pretty soft all around. My Wested has and my G&B is on the way. However, I noticed with my Wested goat of 2002 that around the collar rear it's really soft and appears to be breaking down. It almost feels damp. It's as if the leather rubbing up against my neck has broken down the hide. Maybe a chemical reaction to sweat.

Cheers - CM

[St. Dumas]

I have a Wested goat that that happened on (at least I think it did, based on your description). I'm pretty sure mine was from the way it was folded when it was shipped. I haven't paid it any heed. I'm sure you could straighten it out by soaking that part of the collar and holding it in place with clips or the like while it dries. And as KT said, just be careful with the clips, as the imprint can stay with the leather for awhile.

SD

[bobjones]

Goat will eventually go pretty soft all around. My Wested has and my G&B is on the way. However, I noticed with my Wested goat of 2002 that around the collar rear it's really soft and appears to be breaking down. It almost feels damp. It's as if the leather rubbing up against my neck has broken down the hide. Maybe a chemical reaction to sweat.

Cheers - CM

Yes, yes, well described, better than my explanation.

When looked at, the "softened" section of the collar looks as it it were soaked in water, and feels that way as well. I wonder if this will affect the longevity of the hide...?

What really concerns me is that I have barely worn it, maybe an hour total - and never outside - and it has gotten quite affected. If I were to wear it daily for a few weeks, at this rate the whole jacket would be mush.

But if goat is supposed to be such a tough hide, does it not matter that it became softer? It is very hard to compare to cow or horse, as those take so much longer to soften, and even then retain their toughness.

[CM]

The way this leather is looking on my collar it hasn't just gone soft as goat should it has broken down and appears fragile as a result. The other softer part of the hide is sound. I don't think it is meant to do this. Maybe someone with some knoledge of hide can chime in.

[Prescott]

I think what you’re seeing is a part of the hide that was stretched and loose on the animal when it was alive (i.e. under the arms and legs). You have to remember that a goat is not a very large animal and it’s difficult to get a hide large enough to make a jacket from. Leather from these areas typically has a longer grain with wrinkles that are pre-worked into the hide. My first GB goat had areas like this. On my next jacket I asked that they match the hide paying particular attention to the grain. My current GB has none of these spots. The downside is that the jacket looks too perfect almost artificial. This, I’m sure, will correct itself over time as the jacket becomes distressed. I’m sure that these soft spots will wear just fine.
Regards,
-P-

[Doug C]

Those wrinkled parts are the parts I like most. I like a jacket with lots of it everywhere or else, as you said it can look too pristeen. This is probably what your seeing with your collar "problem", but listen it's supposed to be a loose draping jacket so look at it as a positive, it's just that much more character - because of the nature of leather, no two will really be the same.

Doug C

[DVD Connoisseur]

Those wrinkled parts are the parts I like most. I like a jacket with lots of it everywhere or else, as you said it can look too pristeen.

I'm the same, now. When I was buying my Belstaff "Indy", I wasn't originally too sure about the very visible grain in the leather. Having spent a while with the jacket, I've really grown to like the "look" as it's unique and not like other Belstaffs I've seen.

[bobjones]

I think what you’re seeing is a part of the hide that was stretched and loose on the animal when it was alive (i.e. under the arms and legs). You have to remember that a goat is not a very large animal and it’s difficult to get a hide large enough to make a jacket from. Leather from these areas typically has a longer grain with wrinkles that are pre-worked into the hide. My first GB goat had areas like this. On my next jacket I asked that they match the hide paying particular attention to the grain. My current GB has none of these spots. The downside is that the jacket looks too perfect almost artificial. This, I’m sure, will correct itself over time as the jacket becomes distressed. I’m sure that these soft spots will wear just fine.
Regards,
-P-

Hi Prescott. I'll speak for CM when I say that it isn't the grain as it is the apparent tensile strength and durability of what seems to be a weakened, thinner, softer section of hide.

If you poured water onto a bit of the jacket, then squashed it, it would give a thinner, weak feel, and it is this that we are referring to.

It just seems that the hide has been weakened either by sweat, being folded over at the collar, or is simply a lower grade than the rest of the jacket.

As a side point, since the collar is such a small strip of hide, I would think that if it did actually wear through it would be simple and inexpensive to replace?

[Tollan]

They have a one month returns policy. As long as the jacket "looks new" they will replace it. Maybe you should give them a call if you are that concerned?

[bobjones]

They have a one month returns policy. As long as the jacket "looks new" they will replace it. Maybe you should give them a call if you are that concerned?

I thought it was six months...just in case I will call to clarify.

[CM]

I think what you’re seeing is a part of the hide that was stretched and loose on the animal when it was alive (i.e. under the arms and legs). You have to remember that a goat is not a very large animal and it’s difficult to get a hide large enough to make a jacket from. Leather from these areas typically has a longer grain with wrinkles that are pre-worked into the hide. My first GB goat had areas like this. On my next jacket I asked that they match the hide paying particular attention to the grain. My current GB has none of these spots. The downside is that the jacket looks too perfect almost artificial. This, I’m sure, will correct itself over time as the jacket becomes distressed. I’m sure that these soft spots will wear just fine.
Regards,
-P-

Hi Prescott. I'll speak for CM when I say that it isn't the grain as it is the apparent tensile strength and durability of what seems to be a weakened, thinner, softer section of hide.

If you poured water onto a bit of the jacket, then squashed it, it would give a thinner, weak feel, and it is this that we are referring to.

It just seems that the hide has been weakened either by sweat, being folded over at the collar, or is simply a lower grade than the rest of the jacket.

As a side point, since the collar is such a small strip of hide, I would think that if it did actually wear through it would be simple and inexpensive to replace?

Well said BJ... the others don't get it. It's not about grain and the jacket wearing in and looking "real". It's about the hide degrading and becoming fragile and spongy.

Cheers - CM

[bobjones]

I think what you’re seeing is a part of the hide that was stretched and loose on the animal when it was alive (i.e. under the arms and legs). You have to remember that a goat is not a very large animal and it’s difficult to get a hide large enough to make a jacket from. Leather from these areas typically has a longer grain with wrinkles that are pre-worked into the hide. My first GB goat had areas like this. On my next jacket I asked that they match the hide paying particular attention to the grain. My current GB has none of these spots. The downside is that the jacket looks too perfect almost artificial. This, I’m sure, will correct itself over time as the jacket becomes distressed. I’m sure that these soft spots will wear just fine.
Regards,
-P-

Hi Prescott. I'll speak for CM when I say that it isn't the grain as it is the apparent tensile strength and durability of what seems to be a weakened, thinner, softer section of hide.

If you poured water onto a bit of the jacket, then squashed it, it would give a thinner, weak feel, and it is this that we are referring to.

It just seems that the hide has been weakened either by sweat, being folded over at the collar, or is simply a lower grade than the rest of the jacket.

As a side point, since the collar is such a small strip of hide, I would think that if it did actually wear through it would be simple and inexpensive to replace?

Well said BJ... the others don't get it. It's not about grain and the jacket wearing in and looking "real". It's about the hide degrading and becoming fragile and spongy.

Cheers - CM

Hi CM. I got in too late tonight to call GB about this, but I will tomorrow first thing once they open - they are 3 hours behind me so it won't be until late morning EST.

I will PM you personally with what they say, if others are interested I will post in this thread.

(Side note: I generally prefer to give a vendor a chance to explain the situation before going public with an issue, but I just wanted to see if it was just my imagination re: the hide condition or if there really was anything to it before reaching out to G&B.)

[Rundquist]

Some people have acidic sweat. There are some brass players that can eat through a horn in nothing flat, because of their sweat. If I were you, I would try not to sweat in the thing. Also, try to keep the collar (and your neck for that matter) as clean as possible. Wipe it down with a damp cloth every now & then. Make sure that it is well pecarded. That will give you some level of protection as well. CHeers

[CM]

Some people have acidic sweat. There are some brass players that can eat through a horn in nothing flat, because of their sweat. If I were you, I would try not to sweat in the thing. Also, try to keep the collar (and your neck for that matter) as clean as possible. Wipe it down with a damp cloth every now & then. Make sure that it is well pecarded. That will give you some level of protection as well. CHeers

This is a stick up... give me all the money you have in that cash register or I'll sweat on ya!

Interesting. Only issue is that no other jacket I've owned, other than my Wested goat has gone like that. But maybe it's something to do with goat plus my sweat... I'll see how my G&B holds up. So far, so good. I'm pretty much in love with goat leather so I hope it'll be okay.

[Prescott]

The grain I wrote of is only an indicator of the leather underneath. I don’t think the grain itself has anything to do with what you are feeling in the collar. So I agree with you in that respect. One of the reasons I sent back that particular jacket was a soft (thin) patch on one of the sleeves. It didn’t fit the texture of the rest of the jacket. I also agree that these patches do not seem as durable as the rest of the hide. I was told not to worry about them that they would wear just fine. As there were sizing issues with that jacket, it ended up going back. That was when I put in my request for matching grain. Again, it will probably last as long as the rest of the jacket. However, a GB is an investment that you definitely want to be happy with. I would give them a call and get their reassurances or arrange for a replacement. None of us are made of money; you want to get what you paid for with no regrets. Hope this helps.
-P-

[Tollan]

They have a one month returns policy. As long as the jacket "looks new" they will replace it. Maybe you should give them a call if you are that concerned?

I thought it was six months...just in case I will call to clarify.

I just returned one about a month ago, for exchange with a smaller one, and this is what Teresita told me. Maybe they have changed their policy.

The "new" one is now waiting for me to pick up, three weeks after sending it from the UK.

[bobjones]

They have a one month returns policy. As long as the jacket "looks new" they will replace it. Maybe you should give them a call if you are that concerned?

I thought it was six months...just in case I will call to clarify.

I just returned one about a month ago, for exchange with a smaller one, and this is what Teresita told me. Maybe they have changed their policy.

The "new" one is now waiting for me to pick up, three weeks after sending it from the UK.

Their website states "6 months." That's all I need to see, but this should be resolved in the next day or two.

[bobjones]

The grain I wrote of is only an indicator of the leather underneath. I don’t think the grain itself has anything to do with what you are feeling in the collar. So I agree with you in that respect. One of the reasons I sent back that particular jacket was a soft (thin) patch on one of the sleeves. It didn’t fit the texture of the rest of the jacket. I also agree that these patches do not seem as durable as the rest of the hide. I was told not to worry about them that they would wear just fine. As there were sizing issues with that jacket, it ended up going back. That was when I put in my request for matching grain. Again, it will probably last as long as the rest of the jacket. However, a GB is an investment that you definitely want to be happy with. I would give them a call and get their reassurances or arrange for a replacement. None of us are made of money; you want to get what you paid for with no regrets. Hope this helps.
-P-

I will discuss this in a call with them tomorrow (Friday). Last 2 days I got home after 8:00 PM EST so I couldn't call them, but I am off Friday so I plan to really get down to "brass tacks" with them on this point.

The inside part of the collar will endure alot of friction, so if it is a weakened/thinner section of hide it will not last. As mentioned above, given this high level of friction and the amount of sweat from the back of one's neck onto it, a weak section will just wear through in short order.

Here is a good picture, see how smooth the texture of the left box appears compared to the right box. More importantly, the leather on the right feels much thinner, softer, and spongier...

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll10 ... Slide1.jpg

[Raider S]

Is that a Forbidden Planet reference?

From the photo I can't tell. I know what you mean about the softer feel and on the collar is probably not the place you want it to be. But my guess is that it would probably wear just fine. I think we tend to examine our own jackets too much.

[CM]

Mine's way worse than that BJ. Mine has even lost dye and appears cracked - even though it has been washed and treated with lexol regularly.

Mine's a Wested goat.

Cheers CM

[WeeMadHamish]

Got patches like that on my Wested lamb, on the right sleeve, left pocket and left side panel. They feel fragile but after a year they seem to have held up just fine.

[bobjones]

Stupid question, as I am about to call G&B, could this simply the result of getting the jacket wet in that spot?

Will goat get soft and "spongy" after it gets wet?

I know that if you get shiny, non-distressed cowhide wet it will congeal a bit, and mostly go back to its former smoothness. I have never owned goat so perhaps this is how goat reacts to getting wet, and I am reluctant to moisten another section of the jacket to confirm.

So the question is how does goat react when it gets wet? What is it like a few days/weeks/months later?

[Michaelson]

I had a chrome tanned G&B goatskin for several years and in all the rainstorms I got caught in (and there were more than a few), it NEVER got spongy. Water shed off it like a ducks back, and though it got softer at the time, it was no different in feel than a tight grained cowhide.

Once dry, it was exactly like it was before the wetting.

Once again, just my experience.

Regards! Michaelson

[Kevin Anderson]

Slightly off-topic, but still related; what is 'chrome tanning'? Is it a good or bad thing? Is this sort of leather more likely to experience what the OP's jacket is going through?

[bobjones]

I analyzed the collars of all of the leather jackets I have, and believe the confusion might be on my end, where the leather around the collar is simply being stretched out because it needs to fold over.

With the Aero FQHH and cowhide jackets I have, there is less stretching and loosening of the hide as there is with goatskin, and I think this is where the confusion came from, as I had not owned a goatskin before.

The folding over of the collar stretches the hide, so that when the collar is stood up, the hide grain changes and the hide itself softens and loosens significantly. When the collar is folded over again, the hide "tightens" again and the grain reverts to a tighter look.

I could only check this at night the last few days, and being able to examine the collar, pleats and other parts in the direct sunlight today helped me see how their appearance changes when the jacket "moves" in much more detail.

As such, I think (and hope) that this is just a situation endemic to goatskin, as it seems to stretch more than other hides. Live and learn, and I am satisfied with the G&B at this point, as it is an excellent jacket overall, I just hope in a few months my hypothesis here doesn't come back to bite me as I am not going to pursue it with G&B at this time.

[Rundquist]

I analyzed the collars of all of the leather jackets I have, and believe the confusion might be on my end, where the leather around the collar is simply being stretched out because it needs to fold over.

With the Aero FQHH and cowhide jackets I have, there is less stretching and loosening of the hide as there is with goatskin, and I think this is where the confusion came from, as I had not owned a goatskin before.

The folding over of the collar stretches the hide, so that when the collar is stood up, the hide grain changes and the hide itself softens and loosens significantly. When the collar is folded over again, the hide "tightens" again and the grain reverts to a tighter look.

I could only check this at night the last few days, and being able to examine the collar, pleats and other parts in the direct sunlight today helped me see how their appearance changes when the jacket "moves" in much more detail.

As such, I think (and hope) that this is just a situation endemic to goatskin, as it seems to stretch more than other hides. Live and learn, and I am satisfied with the G&B at this point, as it is an excellent jacket overall, I just hope in a few months my hypothesis here doesn't come back to bite me as I am not going to pursue it with G&B at this time.

I’ve got those “soft spots” on one of my goatskin jackets, only it’s on another part of the jacket. So far those spots have worn just fine. I like them to be honest with you. However, I would just be sure to take care of your collar section period. Collars can wear out from friction & sweat. A little preventative care will negate that though. Cheers

[bobjones]

I’ve got those “soft spots” on one of my goatskin jackets, only it’s on another part of the jacket. So far those spots have worn just fine. I like them to be honest with you. However, I would just be sure to take care of your collar section period. Collars can wear out from friction & sweat. A little preventative care will negate that though. Cheers

In your opinion Rundquist, lets say 2 years from now if the collar hide did start to give out, since it is a smaller piece of hide do you think G&B could replace it? If so, would they be able to do so at a reasonable cost, while as closely matching the color/shading of the rest of the jacket?

[Rundquist]

I’ve got those “soft spots” on one of my goatskin jackets, only it’s on another part of the jacket. So far those spots have worn just fine. I like them to be honest with you. However, I would just be sure to take care of your collar section period. Collars can wear out from friction & sweat. A little preventative care will negate that though. Cheers

In your opinion Rundquist, lets say 2 years from now if the collar hide did start to give out, since it is a smaller piece of hide do you think G&B could replace it? If so, would they be able to do so at a reasonable cost, while as closely matching the color/shading of the rest of the jacket?

What you might do (and I have no idea if they'll do this), is request to buy a big enough piece of the current batch of hide to do a new collar in the future. Now, if you were to replace the collar some years down the line, it still wouldn't quite look the same, as the rest of the jacket has worn over the years. But it would be better than trying to match the current hide with a new future batch of leather which would be impossible. Chances are that your original collar will probably hold up fine. Cheers

[Prescott]

As to an earlier question about goatskin and exposure to water. The Navy chose this hide in its M422A and G1 specifically for its water and salt resistance.
-P-

[bobjones]

As to an earlier question about goatskin and exposure to water. The Navy chose this hide in its M422A and G1 specifically for its water and salt resistance.
-P-

Ha, you are reading my mind

That was one of the things that got me wondering, that 1-goatskin is supposed to be tough as #### 2-the Navy chose the hide for people in a salt water environment so sweat alone probably wouldn't be sufficient to weaken the hide - except over years, maybe.

I am pretty satisfied with my decision at this point, and would still definitely recommend G&B goat as an excellent choice.