I have a question for the talent in the group. I have an 8 ft bull whip made by Joe Strain that I got in December, 2007. I can now snuff out candles 4 out of six times, cut pop cans in half, cut spaghetti from people's mouths (without hurting them) etc.
I've heard the term "accurate" whip tossed loosely around many times here. So...
What standards are typically used to determine the "accuracy" of a whip?
As far as I can tell, the only time my whip wasn't "accurate" was due to user error. To me it's like having an "accurate" rifle, and someone can't hit a bulls eye with it. So they say "this gun must not be very "accurate."
What level of proficiency needs to be attained to determine the "accuracy" of a whip?---Tim
Whip Accuracy
Moderator: BullWhipBorton
From my experience any type of whip is accurate depending on the user's connection with said whip. As long as that person knows that whip, he can be as accurate as he wants with it.
You should be able to feel the whip as an extension of your body - once you are comfortable in that area you can do anything. You need to know how the whip handles and you need to compensate for it.
You should be able to feel the whip as an extension of your body - once you are comfortable in that area you can do anything. You need to know how the whip handles and you need to compensate for it.
I hear what you're saying; true. But the context in which I've heard folks say while referring to an "accurate" whip made me think that it's more the way the whip was made, rather than having a "feel", or "compensating" for the whip.
In other words, I've practiced with this whip for 8 months now. But I've heard people refer to a NIB whip as being "accurate" after throwing it twice. So does that mean they got a feel for the whip, and were able to compensate in two throws??? Do you see the difference I'm trying to describe?
In other words, I've practiced with this whip for 8 months now. But I've heard people refer to a NIB whip as being "accurate" after throwing it twice. So does that mean they got a feel for the whip, and were able to compensate in two throws??? Do you see the difference I'm trying to describe?
from my LACK of experience, id say it refers to the whip going where you put it.
you use the example of a rifle.
well a firearm DOES have to have a certain amount of "accuracy" to work... take a automatic pistol such as a 1911. there has to be a pretty tight slide to frame fit, barrel to bushing fit, lockup etc... any of these , if loose will cause the gun to just be inaccurate regardless of the skill of the shooter.
whether your using a gun, whip, sword, bow and arrow, hammer, screw driver, car, airplane etc etc... whatever........ the "machine" should amplify the skill of the user....
so i THINK thats what folks mean when they say accurate.....
you use the example of a rifle.
well a firearm DOES have to have a certain amount of "accuracy" to work... take a automatic pistol such as a 1911. there has to be a pretty tight slide to frame fit, barrel to bushing fit, lockup etc... any of these , if loose will cause the gun to just be inaccurate regardless of the skill of the shooter.
whether your using a gun, whip, sword, bow and arrow, hammer, screw driver, car, airplane etc etc... whatever........ the "machine" should amplify the skill of the user....
so i THINK thats what folks mean when they say accurate.....
That's what I was thinking, hence the "gun analogy." So if you're highly skilled with using an accurate tool, you would be able to tell whether or not the tool itself was accurate, right?Shagbd wrote:from my LACK of experience, id say it refers to the whip going where you put it.
you use the example of a rifle.
well a firearm DOES have to have a certain amount of "accuracy" to work... take a automatic pistol such as a 1911. there has to be a pretty tight slide to frame fit, barrel to bushing fit, lockup etc... any of these , if loose will cause the gun to just be inaccurate regardless of the skill of the shooter.
whether your using a gun, whip, sword, bow and arrow, hammer, screw driver, car, airplane etc etc... whatever........ the "machine" should amplify the skill of the user....
so i THINK thats what folks mean when they say accurate.....
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PyramidBlaster
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That's my take. I've been cracking targets for 21 years now...And I consider myself pretty 'decent'. After I got back into whipmaking, I revisited some of my earlier whips--including the whip I bought to learn on. It was from a fairly decent whipmaker, but I literally used it to death. I was surprised to see how much slop was in all those old whips, to varying degrees. Some of them had balance issues, some used an experimental fall that had aerodynamic side-effects. But the point is, since I was used to using far more accurate whips, the negative aspects of the older ones were now plainly evident.
The Gun analogy is pretty much dead-on. You'll never get good accuracy out of an old dark-bored surplus piece, even if a champion shooter uses it. Likewise, a newbie shooting a $10,000 sniper rifle will also not be accurate. But when the champion is tuned in to a fine instrument, he knows the subtle signs to look for. If the instrument isn't performing up to par, he knows it right away.
The Gun analogy is pretty much dead-on. You'll never get good accuracy out of an old dark-bored surplus piece, even if a champion shooter uses it. Likewise, a newbie shooting a $10,000 sniper rifle will also not be accurate. But when the champion is tuned in to a fine instrument, he knows the subtle signs to look for. If the instrument isn't performing up to par, he knows it right away.
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hollywood1340
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For those of you with martial experience, the ability to put a hand or foot where you want it every time without thought is accuracy to me. Same with a whip. It's not an effort. Want to cut that? You just do it. If you don't want to touch it, just graze it, you can do it as well. Take a leaf in three pieces, or not cut it all the way through? It's like walking. That is accuracy to me.
I have no formal training in martial arts, but I have friends that do, and some of them are very proficient in using traditional weapons in said art form. So I have a good idea as to what you mean, hollywood1340.hollywood1340 wrote:For those of you with martial experience, the ability to put a hand or foot where you want it every time without thought is accuracy to me. Same with a whip. It's not an effort. Want to cut that? You just do it. If you don't want to touch it, just graze it, you can do it as well. Take a leaf in three pieces, or not cut it all the way through? It's like walking. That is accuracy to me.
But what's interesting to me is that I've never heard them say the "weapon" wasn't accurate when they made an error sparring with a martial weapon. It was always "user error", not the weapon's fault.
This reminds me of a former job as a framer, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I was on a three man crew framing up new homes, and I witnessed a guy working the next house over roll twice as much ceiling joist as we did in one day. Just him and his 32oz Vaughn Hammer. It was humbling. He was "at one" with his accurate hammer. Talk about "Zen and art of wood framing!" LOL!
I've got a little 6 foot American-Style swivel handle whip that I picked up a couple years ago for demonstration/teaching purposes, (i.e. "This is the American Design...This is the Australian Design.") and I rarely tinker with it.
Bout a month or so ago, I had it in my hand and there happened to be something to use as a target in front of me, so I flicked it out there.
BANG. Spot on...
NO WAY!
So, I tried it again...
BANG. Spot on again!
This got me thinking about an incident about 3 years ago, (back in the days before my newly accquired bachelorhood,) when my wife and I were getting ready to go out for the evening, and I had just gotten out of the shower. She was in front of the mirror, and I couldn't get by her, so jokingly, I flicked her with my towel. I don't think I'd attempted anything with a towel since hijinks during my junior high years while at the pool.
The towel hit her on the leg and left a bright red mark THROUGH CLOTHING, (it should be noted that my wife had VERY PALE, "Burst-into-flame-in-direct-sunlight" Irish skin.) She squeeled, and I spent the next 10 minutes apologizing profusely. It had stung, but she was fine, and the red spot was gone within 3 minutes.
Once I got part the "Oh My God I HURT her, IMSORRYIMSORRYIMSORRY " phase, I began to think, "Wow! That was just an odd fluke," until later, (when she wasn't around,) when I flicked the the towel around again.
POP...POP...POP....
Hmmm....
So, I think the whole thing with accuracy IS in the wielder, and not the weapon. Once you're used to a whip, you can put it where you want it, as long as it's behavior is consistent, (and even then it could be argued that you can "Feel" what the behavior is going to be for a crack as you "Load" the whip, so that you know how you need to throw it to get the desired result.)
This was further reinforced this year on either the Thursday or Friday of Annie Oakley Days, (can remember which,) when Gery Deer and Chris Camp were cutting targets from the target stands with 25 foot bullwhips.
Chris's was the Joe Strain made "Big Momma" whip, Made just like an Indy whip, only LONGER, (pictures of this particular whip at: http://www.northernwhipco.com/images/25 ... llwhip.jpg )
Gery was using a 22 foot swivel-handle cowhide whip with a rope core that he'd bought for $45 some years before, and added a 3 foot whitehide fall to make it crack easier.
They were both cutting the targets with about the same consistency.
This isn't a slam on either one's targeting skills, in fact, Chris picked up Gery's whip, and after a minute was targeting with about the same accuracy as he was with "Big Momma."
So once the skills are THERE, then a GOOD whip artist can work with about anything. And this is why it is so important to start training with good tools in the first place. I think this is true of whips, knives, swords, guns, video equipment, construction equipment, tennis rackets, automobile racing, etc. etc. etc.
There is a school of thought that says, "Start with something OK, but not GREAT, so that when you get a GREAT tool, it's that much easier, and you appreciate it more.," but I've found it to be just the opposite.
The whip performers that I see coming along now, and STARTING with a fantastic whip are advancing with their skills so much faster and more efficiently than I did with my 8 plait cowhide whip! (Evidenced by the stuff posted by ShagBD, and my personal observations of "Lemon" Lauren Wickline. I haven't been doing this "Whip Thing" all THAT long, but I remember not long ago when she had JUST started working with whips. RIGHT OFF THE BAT she bought a 6' black Strain Indy that I think is STILL one of the nicest Indy Whips I've handled, and she never put it down. These days, not only does she do stuff with a whip that makes me think "Darn, I've got some work to do!" but she's also one of the FINEST whip makers I've seen, and I think A LOT of that has to do with having GREAT tools to start off with. She MAKES good whips, because she KNOWS what a good whip should FEEL like!)
Anyway, that's the View from the Fishbowl on this one...
All the best, and happy cracking!
-Dan
Bout a month or so ago, I had it in my hand and there happened to be something to use as a target in front of me, so I flicked it out there.
BANG. Spot on...
NO WAY!
So, I tried it again...
BANG. Spot on again!
This got me thinking about an incident about 3 years ago, (back in the days before my newly accquired bachelorhood,) when my wife and I were getting ready to go out for the evening, and I had just gotten out of the shower. She was in front of the mirror, and I couldn't get by her, so jokingly, I flicked her with my towel. I don't think I'd attempted anything with a towel since hijinks during my junior high years while at the pool.
The towel hit her on the leg and left a bright red mark THROUGH CLOTHING, (it should be noted that my wife had VERY PALE, "Burst-into-flame-in-direct-sunlight" Irish skin.) She squeeled, and I spent the next 10 minutes apologizing profusely. It had stung, but she was fine, and the red spot was gone within 3 minutes.
Once I got part the "Oh My God I HURT her, IMSORRYIMSORRYIMSORRY " phase, I began to think, "Wow! That was just an odd fluke," until later, (when she wasn't around,) when I flicked the the towel around again.
POP...POP...POP....
Hmmm....
So, I think the whole thing with accuracy IS in the wielder, and not the weapon. Once you're used to a whip, you can put it where you want it, as long as it's behavior is consistent, (and even then it could be argued that you can "Feel" what the behavior is going to be for a crack as you "Load" the whip, so that you know how you need to throw it to get the desired result.)
This was further reinforced this year on either the Thursday or Friday of Annie Oakley Days, (can remember which,) when Gery Deer and Chris Camp were cutting targets from the target stands with 25 foot bullwhips.
Chris's was the Joe Strain made "Big Momma" whip, Made just like an Indy whip, only LONGER, (pictures of this particular whip at: http://www.northernwhipco.com/images/25 ... llwhip.jpg )
Gery was using a 22 foot swivel-handle cowhide whip with a rope core that he'd bought for $45 some years before, and added a 3 foot whitehide fall to make it crack easier.
They were both cutting the targets with about the same consistency.
This isn't a slam on either one's targeting skills, in fact, Chris picked up Gery's whip, and after a minute was targeting with about the same accuracy as he was with "Big Momma."
So once the skills are THERE, then a GOOD whip artist can work with about anything. And this is why it is so important to start training with good tools in the first place. I think this is true of whips, knives, swords, guns, video equipment, construction equipment, tennis rackets, automobile racing, etc. etc. etc.
There is a school of thought that says, "Start with something OK, but not GREAT, so that when you get a GREAT tool, it's that much easier, and you appreciate it more.," but I've found it to be just the opposite.
The whip performers that I see coming along now, and STARTING with a fantastic whip are advancing with their skills so much faster and more efficiently than I did with my 8 plait cowhide whip! (Evidenced by the stuff posted by ShagBD, and my personal observations of "Lemon" Lauren Wickline. I haven't been doing this "Whip Thing" all THAT long, but I remember not long ago when she had JUST started working with whips. RIGHT OFF THE BAT she bought a 6' black Strain Indy that I think is STILL one of the nicest Indy Whips I've handled, and she never put it down. These days, not only does she do stuff with a whip that makes me think "Darn, I've got some work to do!" but she's also one of the FINEST whip makers I've seen, and I think A LOT of that has to do with having GREAT tools to start off with. She MAKES good whips, because she KNOWS what a good whip should FEEL like!)
Anyway, that's the View from the Fishbowl on this one...
All the best, and happy cracking!
-Dan
) hee hee heee! ---Tim
Well I from totally different tradition of thinking when it comes to accuracy.
Accuracy is totally dependent on repeatabillity. If the behaviour changes randomly you can never learn how to get a pin point accuracy no mather how much you train. The reason for the towels "hit accuracy" is in the actually very accurate and consistent pattern during manufacturing.
A whips accuracy is easily determined how straight it rolls out when cracing. If the plaiting pattern is dead straight and the strands is evenly tapered in all layers, it will go smoother and straighter then if a whip is made with uneven taper on the strands and if the plaiting is corkscrewing around or back and forth.
If the plaitingpattern is corkscrewing the strands will actually be longer in one direction than the other and when the whip rolls out the shorter strands will pull the tipp a litte towards in their direction.
If the "pull" is consistent you can learn to compensate for it and great accuracy can be obtained.
Because of the stretchines of the hide it is allmost impossible to make a "theoritically perfect" whip. but it is possible to come very close and be well within the functional tolerances.
But then again it is as all have said. What you put in, you get out. And it doesn't matter wich is the faulty one, the tool OR the user...
/All the best
Accuracy is totally dependent on repeatabillity. If the behaviour changes randomly you can never learn how to get a pin point accuracy no mather how much you train. The reason for the towels "hit accuracy" is in the actually very accurate and consistent pattern during manufacturing.
A whips accuracy is easily determined how straight it rolls out when cracing. If the plaiting pattern is dead straight and the strands is evenly tapered in all layers, it will go smoother and straighter then if a whip is made with uneven taper on the strands and if the plaiting is corkscrewing around or back and forth.
If the plaitingpattern is corkscrewing the strands will actually be longer in one direction than the other and when the whip rolls out the shorter strands will pull the tipp a litte towards in their direction.
If the "pull" is consistent you can learn to compensate for it and great accuracy can be obtained.
Because of the stretchines of the hide it is allmost impossible to make a "theoritically perfect" whip. but it is possible to come very close and be well within the functional tolerances.
But then again it is as all have said. What you put in, you get out. And it doesn't matter wich is the faulty one, the tool OR the user...
/All the best
I totally agree. Good way of looking at it.munakuppi wrote:Well I from totally different tradition of thinking when it comes to accuracy.
Accuracy is totally dependent on repeatabillity. If the behaviour changes randomly you can never learn how to get a pin point accuracy no mather how much you train. The reason for the towels "hit accuracy" is in the actually very accurate and consistent pattern during manufacturing.
/All the best