original Raiders gloves sold

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Mon May 26, 2008 11:10 am

On our favorite auction site for $2560. For some reason the seller opened a parallel buy it now auction that ended in a couple of hours, then ended the original auction. I thought the bidding would go higher.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Mon May 26, 2008 11:08 pm

I think whoever got these MAY have been duped

I say this because (I stated this in a previous thread) you can see the word "LARGE" printed across Indy's right palm when he and Sallah uncover the Well of Souls ("Asps! Very Dangerous!...."). That and the "legend" says that HF borrowed the gloves from a stage hand - they wouldn't have "HF" written in them if this were the case, not unless the stage hand's name was Henry Flannagan or Hector Fernandez (suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon May 26, 2008 11:56 pm

I would like to see the provenance behind this one.

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Tue May 27, 2008 8:06 am

Buy-It-Now is another way of saying "Cash in before I get busted."

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Wed May 28, 2008 11:00 am

Indiana Neri wrote:(suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

Teddy Hoosvelt.

Chewie Louie · Post by **Chewie Louie** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:24 pm

P.T.Barnum is laughing.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:00 pm

theinterchange wrote:
Indiana Neri wrote:(suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

Teddy Hoosvelt.

"You're wrong, Quiz Kid."

"I've got it! I've got it!....Thomas Heddison!"

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:24 pm

Indiana Neri wrote:
theinterchange wrote:
Indiana Neri wrote:(suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

Teddy Hoosvelt.
"You're wrong, Quiz Kid."

"I've got it! I've got it!....Thomas Heddison!"

I couldn't remember the Thomas Heddison off the top of my head. It's been a while since I've seen that particular short.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

theinterchange wrote:
Indiana Neri wrote:
theinterchange wrote:
Indiana Neri wrote:(suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

Teddy Hoosvelt.
"You're wrong, Quiz Kid."

"I've got it! I've got it!....Thomas Heddison!"

I couldn't remember the Thomas Heddison off the top of my head. It's been a while since I've seen that particular short.

The other guess in that Stooge episode was "Teddy Hooseavelt". I think!!

-raider 57

edit----OOPS, Sorry you guys already got it!

Zombie Jones · Post by **Zombie Jones** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:55 am

Indiana Neri wrote:I think whoever got these MAY have been duped I say this because (I stated this in a previous thread) you can see the word "LARGE" printed across Indy's right palm when he and Sallah uncover the Well of Souls ("Asps! Very Dangerous!...."). That and the "legend" says that HF borrowed the gloves from a stage hand - they wouldn't have "HF" written in them if this were the case, not unless the stage hand's name was Henry Flannagan or Hector Fernandez (suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

This might be true if all the scenes in which Ford wore the gloves were filmed on the same day; highly unlikely. As such, regardless of who Ford borrowed them from, the moment they were captured on film they would have become Indy's gloves and the wardrobe department would collect them at the end of that day of filming and identify them as Indy's/Ford's gloves for use in subsequent shots. This, of course, in no way proves whether or not the auctioned gloves are authentic.

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:36 am

Zombie Jones wrote:
Indiana Neri wrote:I think whoever got these MAY have been duped I say this because (I stated this in a previous thread) you can see the word "LARGE" printed across Indy's right palm when he and Sallah uncover the Well of Souls ("Asps! Very Dangerous!...."). That and the "legend" says that HF borrowed the gloves from a stage hand - they wouldn't have "HF" written in them if this were the case, not unless the stage hand's name was Henry Flannagan or Hector Fernandez (suddenly I'm reminded of the Three Stooges short when the three of them are tailors and they're trying to figure out who's initials are "TH"). Just my two-cents, but what do I know?:roll:

This might be true if all the scenes in which Ford wore the gloves were filmed on the same day; highly unlikely. As such, regardless of who Ford borrowed them from, the moment they were captured on film they would have become Indy's gloves and the wardrobe department would collect them at the end of that day of filming and identify them as Indy's/Ford's gloves for use in subsequent shots. This, of course, in no way proves whether or not the auctioned gloves are authentic.

Right, and with different scenes being filmed in Tunisia, both first and second unit, as well as Elstree, it is hard to imagine just one pair of gloves being used.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:09 pm

The story I've heard is that the as soon as they wrapped for the day using the borrowed gloves, they sent them to Western Costumes for duplicates to be made. Three days later the duplicates were delivered to wardrobe. I forget how many duplicates were made.

The pair I saw at the Profiles in History auction were Wells Lamonts and were marked "HF 3" on the elastic on the inside. Perhaps this was the borrowed pair that then got put into the wardrobe department's rotation.

At any rate, gloves are easy to get and distress. Faking them couldn't be easier.

I am even susupicious of the props coming from Elstree these days. They have an amazing supply of these "original" props to cash in on.

There are many more people in the prop conterfeiting business than you can imagine. You wouldn't believe how often my things are passed off as originals, always with a great provenance story and phony paperwork. I try to intervene whenever I'm aware of it, and I've been able to thwart most of the attempts, but I'm sure there are many I'm not aware of.

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:05 am

The pair that recently sold on eBay may well have been the pair that showed up on the Profiles in History auction late last year, as Todd mentions above. That pair sold for $2200 (as I remember). I believe this same eBayer decided to turn around and resell them - I guess he/she needed the money more than a piece of 'alleged' film history.

-Craig

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:39 pm

Anbody have pictures of these gloves? I'd like to see them. Thanks.

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:00 pm

TheMechanic wrote:Anbody have pictures of these gloves? I'd like to see them. Thanks.

Mechanic,

Here's the original Profiles in History auction photo -

And here are the photos that were posted in the recent eBay auction -

The right glove is unfortunately folded over in the bottom photo so you can't see if the word "LARGE" is printed near the cuff, as you and Indiana Neri have pointed out in the other glove thread - http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?t=32498 - for those that haven't seen it.

-Craig

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:14 pm

Great, thanks alot.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:35 pm

I have seen the other side of the gloves in person and they do not say "large".

The stains and leather grain do match. That's them (or a picture of them). Who knows what actually gets delivered.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:50 pm

Maybe the one's here were the MidWest brand gloves then? Also in these screen caps you can see that the thumb seam does not go down to the center of the cuff like it does on the Wells-Lamont gloves.

scot2525 · Post by **scot2525** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:19 pm

Something else to consider is the fact that worde large does appear to be stamped on in ink or dye and not embossed/ branded into the leather. If it was in fact just stamped this could have easily worn off during filming. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:00 pm

Craig-
I believe those ARE the same pair. You can tell by the black distressing on the knuckles have the same patterns.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:23 pm

If they're the same pair, how did the seam on the palm/thumb migrate from the side to the middle?

I have a pair of Wells-Lamont #Y1120 that are exactly the same as the screen used prop gloves up there with the same thumb seam running to the center of the cuff.

No matter how much I tug on them and twist them (I've even wet formed them to my hands) I cannot get that thumb seam anywhere near where it appears in the Well of Souls screen caps. Completely different seam placement.

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:44 pm

I agree with you Mechanic, and I also agree with Todd. It would appear that the gloves auctioned off are not the pair that you see in the Well of Souls screen caps above. As Todd mentions, there were most likely several pair used (well, at least 2 that have been mentioned - Midwest and Wells Lamont). Just like the fedora, jacket, and other gear, multiples are a must on a film production. It has been widely shown that Harrison was given (or asked for) a pair of work gloves from a grip/electrician on the production. Therefore, it's very probable that a member of the costume or prop department tagged the gloves at the end of the day of shooting and was then tasked with obtaining additional pairs as back-up, stunt use, etc. In Tunisia, I have to believe it's pretty hard to pick up a pair at the local hardware store. I would think it a logical assumption that the additional pairs came from the production's supply and were probably mixed brands. This is just my two cents.

8-[

-Craig

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:59 pm

I agree, very good points made. Filming on 2 continents months apart, makes perfect sense.

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:46 pm

Mods, why did this thread get moved? This discussion is related to the workgloves and the variations that appeared in the film. While the title refers to an eBay auction, this thread should stay in the "General Gear" section, no? I don't see how it fits with Gentle Giant at ComicCon or "The Dark Knight" film reviews.

-Craig

EDIT: Awww, I love the Mods here!!! You guys are good! Thanks for moving this back, guys!!!!

GeordieIndy · Post by **GeordieIndy** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:09 pm

I got some Wells Lamont 1123 gloves from the same guy that sold these gloves. They were spot on :!: Had the correct cotton cuff stitching and logo on them. Due to a recent cash flow problem I was forced to sell them.

Anyway hoping to get more funds in the near future so I can continue my Indy gear collection :!:

GeordieIndy

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:43 pm

I have some additional information about the gloves in question from my "inside source" who had actually had the winning bid on them when they were auctioned, but through circumstances they went to the next highest bidder... now he's glad he lost the auction.

Despite the fact that the movie was shot in other parts of the world and the clothing was made/puchased elsewhere, the wardrobe was managed by Western Costumes. Although the gloves are labeled appropriately inside with a number, the number does not appear in any of Western Costumes daily wardrobe call sheets. Bottom line - there is no proof that HF ever wore them and there is no proof (other than Elstree's word) that they are genuine. That's why they just sold on Ebay for a fraction of what the gentleman paid for them.

Two possibilities: 1. The gloves marked "large" may have been the borrowed pair. The rest were made by Western Costumes, and were presumably not marked "large". That leave the mystery of where these Wells Lamonts came from. There is no trace of the word "large" on the wrists. I looked long and hard and it's just not there.
2. If these Wells Lamonts were the borrowed pair, that means Western Costumes labeled their gloves with "large" for some reason - perhaps just to look store-bought. But that still leaves these Wells Lamonts as undocumented.

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:04 pm

Thanks for that additional info, Todd. I think this also brings up the question of the validity of many of these auction houses that are claiming to sell screen-used props and costumes. As we all know, there are multiples/variations that are made, in addition to "hero" and stunt items, etc.

Oh, we just had an earthquake here. Wow!

Ok, back to the topic at hand. I don't know what the verification process is for these auction houses when they obtain props, wardrobe, etc. for sale. From the auctions I've followed, they've received items handed down from studio employees/workers to family members, then to the auction house. To me, this is a flawed process. An item should not be "second or third-hand" because once it falls into a personal collection, who knows what THAT person could do with an item. For example, they could make a duplicate copy, and keep the original for themselves, etc. I could go on for a long time here, but my basic argument is there are too many holes in this formula at auction houses, and all bidders should take caution when deciding to bid on a "screen-used" item.

-Craig