Nylon Whips of all types, and whips in general.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:56 am

Very well said my friend.
I wish I had somethig to add, but I think you have covered it.
Ron

stealthboy · Post by **stealthboy** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:29 am

Geez, the leather vs. nylon whip debate is turning into our own "emacs vs. vi" war!

UNIX geeks know what I mean.

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:37 am

whippedguy · Post by **whippedguy** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:09 pm

I've recently started making some nylon whips after doing leather for 15+ years...

And I must say I am impressed with what nylon can and will do. I am coming to the same conclusion - That if the whip is well-made, it will perform well regardless of the material used.

Nylon does not stretch like leather does, and I'm finding that I must pull it TIGHTER than leather because of that. That's what my blistered, knarled fingers are telling me! Is this what other nylon whipmakers are finding?

Anyway - Great post!!!

Whippedguy

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:25 pm

Even if I accepted everything being said about Nylon, which I personally cannot do: Where is the character in a nylon whip? Where is the tactile pleasure? Where is the aging aspect, the magical color changes (some subtle, some dramatic)? Where is the intoxicating smell one gets from a well used and well maintained leather product?

While I cannot dispute the workmanship of some nylon whip makers, I can be personally repulsed by the synthetic/artificial nature of their product. To me a nylon whip is simply a novelty- not to be taken seriously

For my UK friends: what did your forefathers use when making the whips they used through out the centuries? I think weather is a bogus issue. Leather gear will withstand the weather if it is properly prepared and properly cared for.

In my view, the only redeeming feature of a nylon whip is the price, which seems to be such an over-riding concern of so many so-called whip fanciers.

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:30 pm

stealthboy · Post by **stealthboy** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:31 pm

I think Boggstandard has it right. It's character. It's about not only the animal from which the leather came, but the individual handcut strands that make up the whip, knowing it came out of one big hide. All nylon cords are uniform width, artificial, and lack "soul".

I also don't buy the whole "weather" argument. Leather products stand the test of time if properly cared for.

Flame on! ;-)

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:08 pm

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:08 pm

Hey Tony,
Glad to clarify.

If you read through the forum, you will notice a great deal of traffic regarding getting something very good, for very little money, seemingly with very little effort being expended in researching a product or a maker. More and more, price seems to dominate the discussion. I believe there is a difference between price and value. While I have no interest in the purely costume aspect of whips, I can appreciate those who do have such an interest. But, if one is purchasing a costume whip (a wall hanger), one should expect a commensurate level of quality- if it happens to be of better quality then it is truly serendipity.

I am as close with a dollar as anyone, but I have learned that a beautifully designed, well rendered, highly functional whip (leather of course) is going to be pretty expensive. I might have to defer gratification until my budget allows me the highest quality possible. If I am paying less, I am generally expecting to get less. I personally try to avoid "caviar dreams on a beer budget."

Nylon whips do not appeal to me on any level, but I can see how someone looking for a good quality whip, at a very reasonable price, would find nylon appealing.

I don't recognize different "classes," when it comes to whips. No elitism here. Just people interested in different things, striving for different things, valuing different things. People having different opinions.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:10 pm

Whippedguy...yeah nylon is rough on the mitts so to speak. Rather than let it slide through your fingers when you pull tight, grip it pull it and pinch it in place. It'll help...a little.

Don't buy the all weather thing???
Lets see you toss your Roo whip in the pool to clean it off, shake it out and crack it some more.
I guess I am a so-called whip fancier.
I could only afford a Strain and a Delcarpio, and I have a few nylons that I am extraordinarily fond of.

Boggstandard what did your forefathers use when making the whips they used through out the centuries?
They didn't have TV, automobiles, airplanes, plumbing, electricity, internet, medicine etc ad nauseum. If they did, they most likely would've used it. Untill you build yourself a car out of sticks, or go back to the horse and buggy this argument doesn't hold water.
Don't buy the all weather thing???
Lets see you toss a Roo whip in the pool to clean it off, shake it out and crack it some more, then when your done hang it to dry and forget it.
I guess I am a so-called whip fancier.
I could only afford a Strain with a Delcarpio in the works. Nylon compliments my collection very well. I have a few nylons that I am extraordinarily fond of and crack often.
Don't knock it till you try it.
Ron

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:25 pm

rjallen70,

I would be happy to respond to you if I could understand your point. But, you lost me with the whip in the swimming pool bit.

In general, perhaps I am a bit of Luddite, yearning for a simpler, more fundamental, natural approach. But, I try to be as consistent as possible; no synthetic fabrics in my clothing/apparel, trying to avoid food additives, etc, etc.

I have used Nylon whips, very recently in fact. I enjoyed the whipping part, I could appreciate the workmanship. The function is there, but the form is lacking. It's an aesthetic thing and I just wouldn't own a nylon whip.

Nor but the way would I put any whip, whatever the material, in my swimming pool.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:29 pm

The point of the pool bit is for me, a whip is a tool. To be used whenever and wherever necessary. Swamps, mud, sand, rain...etc.
I have cracked a nylon whip on the beach at sunrise...a very moving experience. I would never do so with my roo whips. I just rinsed the salt and sand off with a garden hose. done.
Appearently for you, and I suspect Tony, it is art. Nothing wrong with that POV, just not one I share.
My hammer has a steel head and a fiberglass handle. It is nearly indestructible. I could have a hammer with an intricately carved wooden handle and a stone head. But that is not for me.
My 2 cents.
Ron

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:43 pm

With the exception of two, I consider all of my whips to be "users."
I would not hesitated to use my whips in any weather condition(s). If they get wet, cold, dirty- I dry them, thaw them, clean them, and condition them.

Yes, I consider some of my whips to be works of art in the sense that they reflect, in a creative and beautiful manner, the artistic vision of their maker. But, I still use them the way in which they were intended to be used.

konkara · Post by **konkara** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:49 pm

If you're the kind of person who wants to spend at least 15 minutes a day cracking away, having a nylon in your arsenal is a must. Personally, I need at least this much time to just unwind and clear my head on most days (Another topic perhaps? Bullwhip stress relief?).

Whether it's because you often head out early and the grass is still wet from sprinklers, or you want insurance for when it just stops raining before you have a cracking window of opportunity, nylon is a nice extra whip to have.

I don't think kangaroo will ever be replaced as the uber piece in anyone's collection, and I don't think anyone would say a great nylon whip is better than a great kangaroo one. But worry-free cracking when it happens to be wet outside has its own benefits.

Just how deep does the water go when a roo whip gets wet? Just how well do you need to dry it? Who needs such worries? Wait till it's dry out for roo!

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:24 pm

Konara,

I completely understand your point. My answer to the wet problem is to cycle several whips Allow one to dry/rest while using another.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:57 pm

This is a great thread. I have a couple of nylon whips that I use when the grass is wet (which has been rare the last couple of months and will continue to be so for a couple more). I certainly think that nylon whips have their place. Not only that, but I do believe they can perform well when made well. When I started cracking I was using a cheap whip off of ebay, took a lot of force to get it to crack. The nylon cracks like a leather whip, maybe even easier. I wouldn't want to be without it !

I forgot to add, the plaiting on your whip Tony is amazing !!!

Jakk55 · Post by **Jakk55** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:25 pm

Boggstandard wrote:Konara,

I completely understand your point. My answer to the wet problem is to cycle several whips Allow one to dry/rest while using another.

That works well and good for those who have multiple whips to cycle through.

For those of us who only have one leather, or roo whip its nice to have something to crack when its rainy outside. Both have their place. One is going to have more character than the other. And one is going to be more useable in harsh conditions than the other.

This seems like the discussion that is often found on gun forums debating 1911 vs glock.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:36 pm

This seems like the discussion that is often found on gun forums debating 1911 vs glock.

That's an excellent comparison

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:25 pm

Glock-Nylon Whip? Now there's an apt pairing.

TurnerME · Post by **TurnerME** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:16 am

One would think that a whip enthusiast would love whips, especially a well made whip, regardless of what is made of.

Imagine if you would, a material that is stronger, more flexible, and longer wearing than Roohide. Then imagine if it only $5 for enough to make a 10ft whip. Imagine also that aesthetically it even looked like a Roohide.

Would there be objections to such a whip? What if Roohide was no longer able to be exported from Australia? Would alternative plaiting materials become more attractive?

I completely understand the appeal of Kangaroo hide whips. I also know I love whips, be them Roo, Nylon, Cowhide, or my above described magichide.

My point is love the whip.

Also if you ride a Harley and only wave at other Harleys...Shame on You!

Jakk55....Good point on the Glock or 1911. That is why you buy both. Actually several of both.

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:55 am

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:11 am

I've cracked many nylon whips, and have found only a few that I REALLY liked.

Likewise, I've cracked many leather, (cowhide and roo,) whips and there's a larger number of them that I REALLY liked, but I'm just generally picky.

I am a big proponent of kangaroo. I love the feel, the smell, the tactile sensation of Kangaroo. This is animal skin. I am an animal. It becomes an extension of me. The philosophy of the craftsmanship, materials, and flow of well-made kangaroo hide bullwhips is something I've gone on and on about here before.

I've never had that SAME type of connection with nylon.

The closest I've come to it was recently with a nylon bullwhip owned by Chris Camp that was made by Steve "Jabba Hutt" Huntress. It was different than cracking a kangaroo whip. But that's not a bad thing. Not qualitatively different, just different.

I should have my nylon whip from Steve within a week, and there will probably be more from him on the way, (as work/show whips and for teaching.)

Nylon has its uses. Nylon works. I often recommend nylon to theater prop departments because it can sit at the bottom of a prop box untouched for years and then be pulled out and work fine. Paint them, beat them, use them some more, and if they get to dirty, do like a buddy of mine, (after a particularly sodden weekend when I had to borrow it for a show where there was NO WHERE TO WORK but in the mud,) and just take a car wash pressure wash wand to it. You cannot do that with kangaroo, cowhide or ANY leather for long periods of time.

Case in point: My Jacka bullwhip had sat in it's previous owner's closet for about 3 years before I bought it, and it was DRY. Conditioning it the first time was NUTS. I used Fiebings 4 way conditioner, (liquid,) and the whip just kept sucking it up, drawing it into the belly because it was so dry. I was careful and didn't over-saturate, and the whip flows absolutely beautifully now, (better than any other Jacka I've handled.)

Nylon is GREAT for people who USE whips, either professional performers, cowboys, etc. etc. It's an odd day if I don't spend at least 30-40 minutes with a whip in my hand, and I'm looking forward to not having to worry about our unpredictable weather here in Athens, Ohio, (where our climate is VERY similar to the damp North Atlantic islands mentioned above. I have a colleague from Manchester who talks about the similarity in the weather.) Would I trade a nylon whip for MY Kangaroo ones? No, (but then, I wouldn't trade much of ANYTHING for my current kangaroo whips. I'd have them buried with me if I didn't plan on being cremated!)

Would I trade A kangaroo whip for a nylon whip? If I had a kangaroo whip I didn't like so much, and the nylon was a good one, heck yeah!

With me, it's not so much about the materials, but about the quality of workmanship. I'd take a nylon whip from Steve over a kangaroo whip braided by a good number of folks who make kangaroo whips, (I'm not going to name names, as it's rude, and also it's a personal thing. As stated, I'm picky about my preferences on whips, and characteristics in my "Must Have" criteria are often to be found on the "Must NOT Have" criteria of other whip crackers. It's not that there's anything wrong with the whips they make, just not my preference.)

(Incidently, for you Nylon-Naysayers...Just for your edification so you can feel better about yourselves...I carry a Glock too.)lol:

Anyway, all the best, and happy cracking with Nylon, Kangaroo, or whatever...

-D :

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:38 am

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:26 am

I’ve been closely watching this thread, enjoying it and seeing how it played out. Admittedly I kind of chuckled a bit when I first read it as I had the impression it was aimed party at me due to another recent thread, but didn’t have a chance to really reply until now.

Tony, you offer some extremely sound advice. You’re quite right when you say that a well made whip will perform no matter what it's made from. Someone interested in whip cracking certainly does not need an expensive leather whip, but if they want to learn to use a whip with good results they will at least need a well made whip, what ever its made from.

I also agree that if you’re interested in whip cracking, you should try to attend a whip group meeting or a convention, not only to try out different whips but to also talk to other whip artists, enthusiasts and makers to get their thoughts and insight. Though it's not always a possibility for everyone to attend events like that, they are a lot of fun and you’ll learn a lot about whips and whip cracking by attending.

I also completely agree with you that people should do their own homework when selecting a whip. One should get as much information as they can and make up their own minds about what kind of whips best suits them, Be it snake whips, stock whips or bullwhips, whether they made from nylon, cowhide or Kangaroo, whether it’s 4 plait, 6plait, 12 plait or 36 plait, etc. Don’t just take someone else’s word for it. However, with that said there are also some “names” on this forum who, if you are just getting interested in whip cracking, or even if you’ve been doing it for a while you’d be wise to listen too, and take what they have to say into serious consideration, because for better or for worse their reasons and comments are usually backed up by a great deal of knowledge and experience with whips and whip cracking and or whip making. So don’t just dismiss that because they come from some name on a computer screen on the Internet. Other wise what’s the point of those of us with more experience helping others here who are just coming in or are just getting started with whips? What’s the point of recommending good whip makers to them, who produce consistently good work so that they get off to a good start or to giving out helpful advice when asked? One can really glean a great deal of information at this site that is very valid, time tested, useful and helpful when selecting whips, using them or taking care of them. Now, yes I am also well aware that there are lots of “me too’s” who make comment with out having much substance or in depth knowledge to back up what they say, but I don’t think that is really the issue right now.

No one here as far as I know of, has ever said that Nylon whips do not have their place...
Nylon very much has its uses in whip making, it has it pros and cons of course as do other synthetic material that are starting to be utilized in whip making and as does leather. But I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone on this site come out and say that nylon whips are poorly made or that they are inferior whips, or they don’t perform well compared to leather whips. Nor have I ever seen anyone say don’t buy so and so ‘s whip because its nylon and nylon whips are not good.

As for leather whips performing better than Nylon...
That is very much a matter of opinion, isn’t it? Have I ever found a nylon bullwhip that I honestly liked well enough to trade one of my kangaroo hide whips in for? Nope, sorry. That’s not to say that every single nylon bullwhip I’ve ever used wasn’t made by a good whip maker either, many where made by some very well known and respected “names”. We all have our likes and dislikes and and our opinions, and they are just that. Now I recently found a nylon bullwhip that I though was pretty good, made by a relatively new and young whip maker and I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed using it and wanted to make a point of that. If someone wants to listen to me, great, if they don’t then that’s fine too. My comments in that thread however, where in no way meant to be a slam on other nylon whip makers or nylon bullwhips in general and I didn’t think it came off as such. I know I’ve made the comment before that in my experience with nylon whips, I have for the most part been unimpressed and thats true, but I have also see guys like Adam Winrich do things with nylon whips that are extremely impressive so if they like and use them there is clearly a reason for that as well. I’m not here to tell anyone who’s whip to buy or who’s not too, let alone what to do with them when they get them, unless they ask me. All I can do is explain my thoughts and reasons, based on my own experiences and knowledge with whips in what I like and what I don’t like, what works for me and what doesn’t and why I feel that way.

If someone doesn’t like nylon whips, chances are they have their reasons for that and they have just as much right to those reason as the person who swears by nylon whips, thinks nothing comes close to their quality & handling characteristics and feels strongly that they are just as good if not better then any leather whip out there. Not every type of whip suits every person. Leather, especially kangaroo and nylon are different materials with different characteristics and those characteristics are noticeable when handling the whips, at least they are to me. If I didn’t care for how a whip felt or preformed, because of that, that is my personal preference and when asked about it I will share my feelings and can explain why I don’t like them for what ever reason. Yes, I have also seen and used many leather whips made from goat, cowhide, deerskin and from good ol kangaroo too that didn’t impress me much either. Some I considered poorly made and wouldn’t have spent a single dollar or a euro on, others where very well made whips but I just didn’t like the way they handled or preformed. That’s not to say those latter whips where bad, i just didnt like them.

As for the weather being a factor, that point is really moot. You can use leather whips in terribly hash conditions. But most of us choose to take exceptional care of our leather whips so we choose not to, Sometimes to the point of babying them but often with reason. Well made leather whips, especially kangaroo hide whips come with a high price tag that only seems to climb higher each year. A lot more work and artistry goes into making them, at least the good ones and they cost more for a reason, they are also harder to replace but how and where we use them is a choice more then a requirement. There are working stockmen and cowboys who use same leather whips we do in the bush or when working livestock, they do not think twice about submerging them in creeks, dragged though the dirt or mud leaving them in the hot sun, or using them over rocks and in the snow. They are used hard and perform just fine afterwards, they may not have the long life span we try to instill in our whips by taking good care of them, but they are they are tools to them to be used no matter the conditions.

In any case, These kinds of debates are not uncommon on this site and as long as the discussions and debates stay civil and opinions are given respect, they are welcome and appreciated. Often times however, topics like who’s who’s jackets are is better, Wested leather, Flightsuits or Tony Nowack, Who’s hats are better, Dorfman Pacific or Herbery & Johnson or Adventurbilt go off course and get extremely heated, however I am sure will not happen with this thread.

All the best.

Dan

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:01 am

I'm enjoying this thread very much, and as its gone along I've started to wonder whether some of the differences between leather and nylon, in terms of how people feel about them, parallels the duality that David Pye identified in The Nature and Art of Workmanship.

Pye defined what is valuable in terms of workmanship on two levels: the workmanship of risk, meaning a quality of work dependent on the judgment, dexterity and care with which one works, and the workmanship of certainty, which involves predetermined results before a thing is made, such as in automated production.

In the present context, nylon, as a manufactured material, is necessarily more consistent than any leather can be, and so it is a step towards Pye's "workmanship of certainty". I don't know of anyone out there whose whips are not made by hand, although I'm sure that the equipment exists to perform most operations required in a 100% predictable and repeatable way, moving even further along the continuum towards certainty.

Pye writes that "In free workmanship, the flat surface is not quite flat, but shows a faint pattern of tool marks. The effect of such approximations is to contribute very much to the aesthetic quality in workmanship which I shall call diversity." This is what seems to me to be at the core of the debate.

"Questions of good or bad workmanship do not turn on 'truth to material' or on honesty or deception," Pye says. "Bad workmanship is a matter of making mistakes through hurry, carelessness or ineptitude, which thwart the design…"

My two cents, worth every penny you paid for it.

LJ

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:51 am

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:49 am

thefish's opinions is very close to me, I love roo whips, I like cowhide whips, but I appreciate advantages nylon whips. I have leather whips and similar weight and length nylon

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:51 am

I think it's very much to the credit of the members here that the thread did turn into a debate rather than a mud slinging contest which these types of thread can often turn into.....

I TRIED to get a little mud-slinging going with the Glock comment.

It always seems to work elsewhere...

Just trying to help Borton earn his keep around here, and no-one played along....

Anyway, all the best!

-Dan

stealthboy · Post by **stealthboy** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:08 am

thefish wrote: I TRIED to get a little mud-slinging going with the Glock comment.

Well, everyone knows the 1911 is far superior, so there's no reason to sling mud about it! ;-)

/stainless steel aluminum frame Kimber Pro Compact for me....

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:10 am

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:06 pm

A little off topic, but
Tony has a great tutorial on a 4 foot nylon snakewhip in the latest issue of APWA Journal. Very nice!
I was amazed at the same conclusions we came to as far as design...there were a lot of differences too. It is a great article you should be very proud!
Ron

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:32 pm

Tony, great thread you started! I've enjoyed reading every post, even the really long ones, won't say any names

. But great looking stock whip, love the colors. Can I ask what you used for the handle? The straightness of it doesn't appear to be cane.

Dan (the fish), thanks for so many kind words! I better make sure your whip is good after all that,

. Looking forward to your review.

Of course, I agree with those who like the lower cost and "beatability" of nylon. Pretty sure that's not a word

. Glad to see though that this has kept true to the form of a debate and, as Dan BWB stated, didn't turn up any mud-slingin'. I've always thought of nylon as a supplement to leather, not an alternative.

Steve.

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:10 pm

whippedguy · Post by **whippedguy** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:04 pm

jabahutt70 wrote:I've always thought of nylon as a supplement to leather, not an alternative.

Steve.

What Steve said...

IMHO - Nothing can replace the rich, natural feel of a great kangaroo whip... But nylon is an innovative way to "push the envelope" of whip design/function.

"Variety is the spice of life!"

Whippedguy

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:28 am

Hey Tony, no worries! Thanks for posting the answer to my question. At least those little crops are good for something. I've thought of using them for the same purpose, as they're all over the place on ebay.

Now I see it...that is the snake you made in the tutorial, aha

! I know you don't like the looks of it, but it's still pretty snazzy!

Steve.

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:46 am

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:53 am

Tony, Moot basically just means it’s debatable, kind of here nor there as it depends on where the person who owns the whip chooses to use it.

I am from Michigan in the U.S. where half the year it snows, the other half it rains and the other half its blistering hot and with a few relatively dry weeks aside from the occasional summer blizzard, I ‘ll let you figure all that out

. While I’ve used good leather whips in less then ideal conditions, I don’t like to make a habit of it so I do agree with you. I think that well performing whips made from a synthetic material are ideal for those conditions.

All the best.

Dan

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:56 am

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:02 am

Small illustration for discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJExapdp-kE

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:40 am

Moot:
–adjective
1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.
2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
3. Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:42 pm

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:12 pm

Outstanding video Kooniu !!!
The similarities are evident in your video...it would be great if you could elaborate on the differences in your experience!
Ron

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:33 pm

Steve sent me pics of my new toy today!

Wanted to share, as I'm very excited!

Note the similarity in the transition to my Jacka

(EDIT: for some reason, the image doesn't want to display, so just follow this link:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/DanielGTrout/SEJ9K ... imgmax=800

(I think this picture Steve sent shows it better, though it's still without knots.)

I hope to have it before I leave for Annie Oakley Days, (next Wednesday, we'll see.)

Anyway, all the best!

-Dan

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am

rjallen70 wrote:Outstanding video Kooniu !!!
The similarities are evident in your video...it would be great if you could elaborate on the differences in your experience!
Ron

My experiense is not to big, half years ago I don't saw a whip made by other maker, but now, I try seweral whips made by top makers from nylon and roo as well and I find very good and bad for me

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 pm

jabahutt70 wrote:Dan (the fish), thanks for so many kind words! I better make sure your whip is good after all that, . Looking forward to your review.

Whip arrived today. And you FAR exceeded your claim on those kind words. In fact, words cannot explain, but I'll try. Expect a detailed review soon!

All the best, and Happy Cracking, (I know I will be! This nylon whip is SWEET!)

-Dan

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:12 pm

So, this thread has REALLY got me thinking, (and you know what THAT means. That means this is going to be a LONG post, so you might as well take a bathroom break, and go ahead and get that cup of coffee NOW if you plan on slogging through this spiel...

(So... Go ahead....

(I'll wait...

Back? OK...)

I haven't been able to put down this Nylon bullwhip that Steve made me since it arrived yesterday. I had already sent him a detailed review of my initial impressions last night, and intended to post it here today. But I decided to type this instead. I might post the actual product review later, as it's more "Concrete" and far less "Abstract" than the following decent into philosophical quandry. Anyway.

I love my new Nylon bullwhip from Steve. Yeah, it's very different than cracking a kangaroo whip. But that's NOT a qualitative difference, just a difference.

It feels very different than my usual fare, and the only discomfort I currently have with it is that it's new. I'm just not as used to it as the whips I've been cracking almost daily for over two years. Well, DUH on that. That will obviously change.

Now, as I've stated, I've handled other nylon whips, most I didn't like. But I didn't like them for many of the same reasons that I haven't liked several roo and cowhide whips that I've cracked, so in my case it wasn't SOLELY materials.

However, I can say without a doubt that I've handled more NYLON whips that I DIDN'T like than Kangaroo whips that I DIDN'T like, and if there's NOT a qualitative difference between the two materials, then that ratio should skew the OTHER way, as I've handled FAR more kangaroo whips than nylon.

So, it's something else. What's the deal?

Well, I started with considering what is is that I HAVEN'T liked about the nylon whips that I've handled. My primary issue has been weight. Many of the nylon whips I've cracked just felt just TOO light. It felt like there was NOTHING there.

OK. That's IT, right? It's a weight issue!

Well, no. I've handled cow and roohide bullwhips that I felt the same way about. Too darn light. BUT I've also handled incredibly light whips that were just amazingly responsive and just cracked and targeted effortlessly.

Conversely, many of the nylon whips I'd cracked had the OPPOSITE problem. The maker had obviously heard the complaints of "Too Light" and had loaded the whip with shot and lead to give it a similar mass to leather.

A couple of this type of HEAVY nylon whips that I've handled cracked as accurately and effortlessly as those lightweight kangaroo whips. They might have felt heavy all coiled up, but they were light as a feather while you were throwing them, and I've played with Kangaroo and Cow that felt the same.

But there were ALSO Nylon, Kangaroo and Cowhide whips that felt about the same weight as those nice ones that while handling just felt like you were trying to crack a brick tied to the end of a logging chain.

That's not it, then? Bugger all! NO! So, we have light whips of both leather and nylon that feel heavy and substantial when cracked, just as we have heavy whips of both materials that feel light when they're thrown. There is obviously an variable in our research that we haven't factored in yet.

So that led me to thinking that it ain't the AMOUNT of weight, but it's WHERE it's located in the whip. Hmmm...OK..I think the idea of "weight distribution" comes CLOSER to hitting the nail on the head, but not ENTIRELY.

So, I began to think about what was it about those nylon and leather bullwhips that I liked that made me like them. It wasn't weight and mass alone obviously.

Well, they roll out smoothly, the carry through the natural movement of my body, and they crack completely effortlessly and accurately to the point that hitting a target with the fall of the whip is as natural a move as pointing to it with my finger. The one's I LOVE move like they are an extension of my body. This is a characteristic I keep referring to OVER and OVER in my conversations with Steve, and David, (ShagBD,) and Paul, (Midwestwhips,) and just about ANYONE that would listen.

I feel a connection to the whips I like. On a good day, it's almost as if I can feel with the end of the fall like I can feel with my fingertips. That very Tai Chi/Qui Gong type of channelling of our SELF, our "life energy," our willpower, into the tool/weapon.

I think ALL of us who do this "Whip Thing" seriously DO THIS, regardless of personal philosophy, or martial arts background, or whatever. Whatever you call it, however you visualize it, I think it's the same. And for a lot of us, I think it's what drives us. It's not cutting the target, it's not nailing the cracking routine. Yeah, those are nice, but it's "Being the Whip" to do it that's the rush, (at least for me. Like Eugene Herringel says in Zen and the Art of Archery, "In Kyudo, the target is not the bullseye, it is the Self." Deep, obscure, but SO TRUE!)

With the whips I don't like, there's a disconnect. It just feels like this lifeless thing in my hand. While thinking about this, it suddenly hit me:

Has this ever happened to you too? You know when you've fallen asleep in an odd position, and you wake up, with all circulation in your arm cut off, and your arm is so SERIOUSLY asleep from like the shoulder down that it doesn't even tingle at first. It's like it's not there at all. Totally numb. Totally Slack. And you LITERALLY have to MOVE the asleep arm with your OTHER arm.

So you're there handling this foreign THING that cognitively you KNOW should feel attached to you and obey your commands. It's almost panic inducing, (especially if you're still bleary from just waking up.) Then the tingling works it way down to you fingertips, and the numbness, slowly, a little painfully goes away.

So, there's that similar disconnect, but it goes beyond THAT too. When you have to move your own sleeping limb with your live one, you invariably do it by grasping the sleeping hand in the other "Awake" one.
You can feel the sensation with your awake hand, but not your sleeping one.

Now, this should NOT be unusual. It should be just like holding the hand of another person who might be sleeping. But it's NOT. It's creepy, almost like you're handling a dead body, and it's not even that deep down, you know it's your OWN ARM. It's something else.

It's "live weight" versus "dead weight."

I have friends and family in the medical profession, law enforcement, and the military, and UNFORTUNATELY that means that at some point or another, they had to be in the "Death Business." Something that has been intimated to me on different occasions by different people discussing different types of scenarios, (and it's often something they don't like to talk about and so I certainly don't press them for information,) is how very different it is to have to carry or move someone unconscious as opposed to someone who won't be waking up.

I don't mean for this to be morbid, and I'm almost through it, I swear. You can make a training dummy, and you can give him the same mass, and same weight distribution as a person, and you can fill him full of ballistic gelatin to try to get the same feel for how his skin and the muscles beneath it will compress when you lift him, and you might come VERY close to a cadaver, but it will NEVER feel like a person who is unconscious.

I think that's it with ALL those bullwhips, Nylon and Leather that I've liked. Regardless of how heavy they were all coiled up, the weight wasn't dead when you cracked them.

Didn't matter if they were light or heavy. They felt like a living extension of ME.

Quite the opposite on the other end of the spectrum. Doesn't matter how much MASS you give a whip or take away. If there's no connection to it, it's just a lifeless hunk of dead skin or woven plastic fiber.

Until yesterday, I was of the impression that Nylon whips were easier to make than leather ones. I mean, for nylon, the MAJOR work is done, right? You don't have to select the hide, cut the whip out, hand cut the laces, stretch, skive, bevel and taper them, and then begin to actually CONSTRUCT the whip. THAT'S the craftsmanship! That's what take the most time and practice to get down, (or so I've been told by whipmakers who are masters of creating what I've come to know in the last few hours as "Live Weight" whips.)

Not to say working with nylon is EASY, just FAR less complex a process to produce something resembling a whip.

But lets look at this another way. With Kangaroo and often cowhide, part of the job of making a GREAT whip is already done. The material is dense, it was at ONE TIME alive, and in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, it will readily, through the grace of the materials used and the skill of the maker, feel "Alive" in the hand, (OK...It's not that simple, but I believe that naturally falling kangaroo whips will be more prone to having "Live Weight" than Nylon.)

With nylon, you can skip all that fiddly "Cutting/Beveling" business, but you've STILL got to weight it properly, and as I've pointed out with the several dozen paragraphs above, with nylon, that's more an intuitive "felt" skill than an exact science. Nylon inherently doesn't have those properties that leather does to create a "Live Weight" whip. That whole process has to be manufactured by the maker.

So the above is not meant to belittle the abilities of any of our talented whip makers who work in kangaroo. You guys have no idea the amount of respect and admiration I have for you. I am your humble patron, and appreciate your wares greatly.

What the above is meant to say is that yes, it takes less training, talent skill and experience to make a nylon whip than it does to make a leather one. BUT it takes JUST AS MUCH training, talent, skill, and experience to make a GOOD nylon whip.

I myself have in the past been somewhat of a "Kangaroo Elitist," not really caring too much for Nylon, and dismissing it as "a good alternative for budgetary and work environment limitations, but qualitatively inferior to Kangaroo whip." But like so many novice whip crackers I've known who've babbled on and on about how wonderful their less-than mediocre whip is from such and such maker simply because they don't know any better, that was based in ignorance. I simply hadn't owned a good nylon whip.

I've seen the light.

(Thanks for being that light, Steve.)

Anyway, all the best. Happy Cracking!

-D

whippedguy · Post by **whippedguy** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:04 pm

Thefish,

Excellent post... Brilliant...

Whippedguy

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:16 pm

Hey Dan, thank you once again for the review. I always ask that people give me an honest review, what they like and don't like about a whip I've built them. So thanks again for the kind words.

Though some of what you said Dan may be too deep for some people, I think that was an excellent explanation of live weight vs. dead weight, and very informative. Great post!

Steve.

LemonLauren · Post by **LemonLauren** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:18 pm

Dan (thefish) brought his new nylon bullwhip by Steve (jabahutt70) to Annie Oakley Days this past weekend, and I tried it out...

I am EXTREMELY impressed!!! It's a 6ft with a 10" handle, extra long leather fall, and some extra weight. And some other specs too - I can't remember all of them to list. I'm so happy I got to try it, and I cracked it quite a bit over the weekend (thanks Dan!).

Of course it's not 'roo, but I'm amazed at how well it handled and how similar the size, weight, balance and handling was to a well-made 'roo whip. Over the course of the whole weekend, I did literally everything with it that I can do with my 'roo 6ft bullwhip - all the basic cracks in all the planes, the coachman's crack, targeting, crossovers, etc., and I even did some wraps on Paul. The wraps were the only thing I could possibly complain about - the fall hitch is pretty large, so it tended to hit a little harder than a softer thinner 'roo hitch would hit. But that is a small price to pay to have a whip that looks and performs as well as this one did.

I definitely feel the live weight versus dead weight Dan was talking about - there truly is something "alive" feeling about the way a professional 'roo whip responds when you're cracking it. And this nylon whip wasn't (and probably never will be) completely "alive" feeling IMO, but it's pretty close, and it's at least definitely fully functional. And if a person absolutely cannot find a way to get a professional 'roo whip to learn with, this whip that Dan had is an excellent starter whip IMO. Or an excellent whip for a dedicated whipcracker who doesn't want to take his or her leather whips out in inclement weather. Like I said, I am truly impressed. Excellent work Steve - don't forget how you made that whip, because one of these days I'm going to get one (or two).

Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com

PS: Paul also wanted me to mention how much he was impressed by it too, in case he doesn't get the chance to post about it himself later. Awesome!!!

Nylon Whips of all types, and whips in general.

Nylon Whips of all types, and whips in general.

Nyon vs. Leather My New Perspective