OT: Long Handle or Short Handle?

[Mannie Bothans]

I have only cracked a whip a few times in my life, but I should own a real whip within a couple of weeks (hopefully before Annie Oakley days).

The new movie has given us a new hat bash, and a whip that looks a little different.

Because they went with DeLongis for KotCS, it seems a new can of worms has been opened, to a certain extent; he has his own way of doing things. I am trying to wrap my mind around the dynamics at work without actually having much real-world whip-handling experience myself.

The title of this post is very deceiving... There is so much more about a whip that gives it its properties than the mere length of a handle, but handle length was what got me first started think about a particular question.

Because I have this newfound fascination with the whip (and because I don't have the money to buy one of every different type of whip imaginable as I start out) I was wondering what you (or more precisely, those of you who have experience with lots of different types of whips) thought about which type of whip is best suited for what.

Jacka really seems to like that long-handled Australain type of whip. According to the article on the main site, when asked to shorten his handle for the movie, he wasn't happy to lose the leverage that a 10 inch handle provided so he made the binding longer and he stiffened the transition at the end of the handle by adding an additional short, tighter bound, section and that went a long way in helping to retain the action he likes. He uses polypropylene twine to try to get the effect of a gradual decrease in the stiffness of the handle into the thong and his bindings are extremely tight and close and go the full length of the plaited belly.

DeLongis must have taught himself how to crack using a Jacka whip. The quote on the main site makes his preferences clear, "The design of the American style bullwhip, which is the Indy standard, is best suited to single throws from all eight angles of attack on both the forehand and backhand sides. However, this shorter handle makes rapid multiple throws difficult, especially when transitioning from single throws to complex compound combinations."

Because so many people who love the short-handle American Morgan-style Indy-type whip (and who crack the whip much differently than the style DeLongis uses) don't like the feel of the "longer" handled Jacka-type whips, I wonder if Delongis' bias that intricate multiple combos can't be done as easily on a short handle are just a result of his own taste and style.

Those who do a lot with stockwhips, like Mike Murphy, seem to really like the action of the long-handled type of whip. Those who do more with American whips don't think the long handled whips feel right. I realize that because this is an Indy forum, I am more likely to run into more American bullwhip users here than I would at, say, an Australian cracking competiton-- but humor me.

Is it just a matter of what you learn to crack with, practice with the most, and enjoy the most? Is it just a product of one's own personal style? Or is there a definative advantage (e.g. when doing fancy routines, precision targeting, complex multi-crack combos) of a particular type of whip and a particular style?

My curiousity about thesee matters was piqued by a (very kind) response in another thread. I am fascinated that so many top-notch whip-makers are here and are willing to share their expertise. In another thread Bernardo mentioned

Mannie, If by handle core you mean the handle foundation, then I use the same 8 inch steel spike as my regular Indy whips. In a way, my CS bullwhips are designed to look like a CS Jacka, but they have a Morgan-like construction and handling, which is what I prefer. I didn't want to copy Terry's whips handling or construction, simply because I like the Morgan style better. That said, I respect Terry's ideas on how a whip hould be made and how it should handle, and respect those who like his whips too.

So I got to thinking. Is it all just a matter of taste? Is it all just a matter of personal style? Is it all just a matter of what you learn to do and what you learn to use?

Or...

Is there a particular design of whip that is better suited for certain applications? Is it a simple matter of physics, leverage, and irrefuatble laws of nature that some designs are superior to others.

Now, I know that every human is different. I still can't do a sidearm flick consistently, but the first time Lauren Wickline's mother picked up a whip BANG-- perfect flick mastery. I do understand that certain types of things come easier to certain types of people.

Now, I also know that we as humans have a tendency to take our own subjective experience and think that is the way it must be for all people in all times in all places. I do understand that what works for you (or Anthony DeLogis, or Mike Murphy) might not work for me.

Now, I also know some swear by a Morgan-style and some swear by a Jacka-style. I do not want this thread to be about which looks better on screen, or what movie was better. I hope we can put aside our strong feelings on all of that for the purpose of this particular thread.

Here's my self-interested motivation for my question...

In a week or two I will have my first real whip. It will be a natural tan Raider's style bullwhip, no doubt about that. I will carry this whip when I wear the rest of my Indy gear and I will practice with it if I can find a place to crack it. I first ordered a 10 foot Raiders bullwhip, then I changed my order to an 8 foot Raiders bullwhip. After watching tons of videos and actually cracking some whips in real life, I am thinking about changing my order to a 7-ft Raiders bullwhip. I know this sounds bad, but I am already thinking about my next whip.

I want to learn how to do really accurate target cutting and I want to learn how to do complex quick combos. Is there one single design that is really, really good for both of these goals?

(I know that if I ever became a professional whip artisan I would be able to design my own whip with just the exact properties for every nuanced trick I wanted to do. But I am not there and will never be there.)

I'm a new hobbiest and I want to learn on something that will open up the most potential for success down the line-- success in target accuracy and success in multi-crack fancy combo tricks.

I have seen Adam Winrich do amazing volleys on an IOAB. I have seen Paul Nolan do a cool four corners with a pretty long Morgan bullwhip. But I have also seen Mike Murphy seem to have a bit more difficulty with bullwhips (in that video with all the flies) than he has with stockwhips (he would only use LONG handled bullwhips in that video).

So, is it all just a matter of what you learn to do and what you learn to use or is there a particular design/type of whip that is better suited for target cutting and complex multiple cracking routines?

[kooniu]

Tony wrote ( in other topic) :

..I just love whips and love making them....I'm no Indy fan in any way shape or form, I've never even looked on any of the other boards on this forum let alone posted on them.....

Tony

Me too, I love whips, and like me Indy style bullwhip but for cracking I know better whips for me, than long bull with to short handle. For targeting, general cracking, rutines, work and other whip activity stock whip is my favorite whip.

[rjallen70]

I concur...
I use a FL cow whip or a bull with a 12" handle for such things.
My fav is still the American short handle bull though.
Ron

[McFly]

I think that handle length definitely makes a difference in the way a whip handles. Physics plays a huge role in the construction and workings of a bullwhip. You already know that the crack is a sonic boom, and that the force you exert onto the handle increases exponentially, until the speed of the whip, reacting to that force, hits the appropriate speed.

Now, if I know what I'm talking about, I think that the longer the handle would be, the greater the initial force would be, which transfers itself down the whip. It's similar to jacking up a car. If the handle on the jack were shorter, I think it would be more difficult to lift the car, but because of the length of the handle, the force is applied differently.

What I mean is, if you hold a pencil in your hand, and cock your wrist forward like you would with a whip, the distance that the handle travelled would be, say, x distance. If you then took a yard stick, and did the same movement with your hand, the distance travelled by the end would be much greater. Therefore, I think that with a bullwhip, which is reacting to your movements, if you're then moving the whip further with a long handle than you would with the short one (while only performing the same movements), then the whip has more distance to travel. During that travelling, you can move the whip back and forth (say you're doing a volley) more often.

I'm not sure if that made sense (particularly towards the end) but I think the general idea is there.

When I worked with Anthony, he had me use one of his long handled bullwhips instead of my Stenhouse (just for a little while). The feeling is totally different!

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...

Shane

[Mannie Bothans]

I concur...
I use a FL cow whip or a bull with a 12" handle for such things.
My fav is still the American short handle bull though.
Ron

Oh my, I have soooo much to learn. I don't think I have ever even seen a Florida Cow Whip in person. I have done a couple of volleys with a stockwhip, though.

I would have to drive a little bit to get to the nearest whip enthusiasts meeting group, but I would love to try my hand at the longer handled bullwhips to see what it feels like vs the stockwhip.

I'd love to hear how folks think a long-handled bullwhip handles compared to a stockwhip.

Also, since this is so new to me, are there other online forums of just whipcrackers that aren't too bothered by people that ask dumb newbie questions?

[winrichwhips]

For me, nothing beats a good stockwhip for the fast, fancy multiple cracking routines. The nylon cow whips I use are made to have a balance very similar to a stockwhip.

For targeting, a whip that cracks with little effort and is easy to control is about all you need, regardless of handle length or whip style. I prefer targeting whips to be heavier than whips for multile cracking so that I don't have to put to much effort into the throw to get a good crack. For multiple cracking, the lighter whip is better as it is easier to swing the whip around and change it's direction quickly.

I like Indy-style whips for doing the flick, which works for targeting and wrapping. But the weight and handle length don't work as well for multiple cracking as longer-handled, lighter whips.

-Adam

[Bardoon]

Mannie, stick with a 8 foot whip.

It's almost like a car, once you get it...you wish you got that extra feature you were debating to get.

[Mannie Bothans]

Thanks everyone, it is really nice to have so much input from so many different genuine experts.

Mannie, stick with a 8 foot whip. It's almost like a car, once you get it...you wish you got that extra feature you were debating to get.

This is a very interesting point. I'm really putting a lot of thought into my first "real" whip, but I haven't cracked that many different types. Bardoon, are you coming from more of a SA angle, (in other words, "Man, holding this thing makes me really feel like Indiana Jones," "Watching a long whip unfurl is very cool," etc.), or are you speaking out of your experiences handling a 7ft vs an 8ft whip and how they handle with multiple cracking and fancy combos?

I need to decide very soon exactly what I am going to get; my whip will be started next week.

[Canuck Digger]

I have tried many different types of bullwhips, some more Morgan-like and others more Jacka-like in their construction and handling, and all I can say is that as long as the whip feels right for you, that is the main point. The rest I will say that no one single tool can do everything, that's why we have a variety of tools. Figure out what it is you want to accomplish and go and get yourself the best tool you can afford for that purpose. You'll KNOW you have the right one when it becomes a natural extention of your body. The whip I had growing up with was a simple but well made heavy bullwhip and whenver I took it in my hand it was like coming back home; it just felt RIGHT. It's everything, the handle, the size and shape of the butt knot, how far and how stiff is the transition zone, how long the whip is, how heavy it is, what the taper is like, the length and weigth of the fall and the cracker, how well broken in it is. It's just everything really, but I'll tell you this so you don't walk away all discouraged about how many different variables there are: the right whip for you will be like the right car. You KNOW IT INSTANTLY when you sit in it and take it out for a test. You just know it.

Personally, I like a more Morgan-like type of whip, but with a slightly more springy transition zone, though not as long as Jacka's...
Good luck.

[PyramidBlaster]

Here's my take on things.

As a 21-year user and 14-year maker, I 've tended towards short-handle whips...But I learned an important lesson a few years ago while building my first Nylon whip.

I was trying to transfer what I had jotted down as to the specs of the Leather whips I was making up until then....Only thing is, I hadn't made a whip in a couple of years, and at the time my note-taking was lacking. So, I chose a 6" handle for the whip. I was delighted when I was finally done, as it turned out better than I'd thought. I took it out and compared it to some of my older whips, as well as borrowing some others at a whip enthusiast's meet. I found that 6" suddenly felt horribly, horribly short compared to even an 8", which I now make as my shortest length. The whip simply wasn't as accurate, nor was it as easy to maneuver. Apparently my earlier whips had longer handles.

The big reason here: the handle of a whip is a simple machine---a lever. A long lever will give better mechanical advantage than a short one. To a point, longer-handled whips generally take less effort to realize a larger outcome. There are limits, but they are typically more accurate, as well.

The one thing they aren't, however, is handy and portable...Thus the short-handled American Bullwhip. I like the carryability of a bullwhip, but I also enjoy the action of, say, a Florida stockwhip.

[dr. tyree]

I think a ten to twelve inch handle is perfect, especially for an eight foot whip.

[BullWhipBorton]

Mannie, Australians typically make their bullwhips differently, they are usually made lighter with a longer handle section so that the action of the whip emulates a stock whip more closely, which is typically the preferred Australian whip. That makes those types bullwhips more popular for quick multiple cracking combinations also to some extent for target work.

Not all, but many whip performers and even a large number of serious whip enthusiasts seem to prefer longer handled, lighter Australian style bullwhips or stock whips as apposed to the short handled heaver Morgan style America bullwhips.

For the most part the Delongis' bias can be done as easily on a short handle whip, but with those short handled American style Indy bullwhips the intricate multiple complex combo throws can be very stressful on the handle to thong transition. Even David Morgan will admittedly say that his bullwhip are best used with direct throws and very little wrist action, making them less suited for intricate fast multiple cracking combinations.

Most Australian whip crackers and makers are brought up with stock whips so traditionally Australian bullwhips where actually made more so to suit an American market and American whip artists looking for something better then the heavy slower American style bullwhips they had access to here. American whip crackers are usually first introduced to American style bullwhips, like the Indy bullwhips but then as they gain more experience and improve skills and their knowledge base grows its not uncommon to see them star to graduate to longer handled, lighter bullwhips and stock whips. I don't know many that will say they still dont love those Indy bullwhips, but there are some defiantly advantages with longer handled Australian bullwhips and stockwhips.

The thing with Terry Jacka is he does make his whips a bit differently then most whip makers, Aside from the longer handle, which helps adds leverage, Terry uses a characteristic he refers to as progressive flexibility that you mentioned. With the Indy style bullwhips like David, and Bernardo make and many other whips, the thong curves and drops relatively quickly from the handle, Terry’s whips especially when new are very stiff from the handle transition up into the whip and the thong gets more flexible the further down from the handle you get. As they become broken it, it becomes less distinct but its still very much there. This provided a very different action to that type of whip, some really like it, others not so much but its it’s just based on what type of whip cracking you like to do and what feels right in your hands. That’s why you’ll often hear comments about Terry’s whips like “it felt very different then what I was used too” or “It was a lot different then my Morgan or Strain” The Crystal skull bullwhips are kind of a new evolution in whip design in a sense that it has a shorter ridged handle but still has the heavily reinforced transition to help add leverage back into the throws, which make it more ridged like Terry’s long handled Australian bullwhips but at the same time Its also a much heavier more robust bullwhip like the American pattern bullwhips. There really aren’t many others whips like it to compare it too right now. It’s different, not that different is a bad thing, just different.

Taste and personal style have a lot to do with it what types of whips a person chooses though, but undoubtedly the style and design of the whip also plays a big part in how the whip will perform and in what various situations it will perform better or worse in. Some whips just work better for things then others do.

For those quick complex combinations I think you are you are better off with a long handled bullwhip (sometimes called a Target whip) or better yet stock whips as opposed to the short robust Indy style American bullwhip. That’s not to say you can’t do those things with an Indy style whip, with good results even but just that the Indy style bullwhip wasn’t really designed to perform in that manner where as wtock whips for example are much more ideal for that fast multiple combination style work you see in the Murphy videos. For target cutting and wraps i find they all work about the same, many like the long handled target whips for cutting targets though. For my own preferences, while I like and use both the Indy style & Australian style bullwhips as well as stock whips frequently, I do find a well made long handled (10 to 11 inch ) bullwhip very well suited to my cracking style as a general over all whip.

Dan

[Mannie Bothans]

For target cutting and wraps i find they all work about the same, many like the long handled target whips for cutting targets though.

Thank a million.

Since you mentioned wraps, what is the shortest length of a whip that one could reasonably expect to be able to do a wrap on a person with safety and consistency? Six feet, seven feet maybe?

[hollywood1340]

I regularly do wraps on my partner with a 4'

[Bernardodc]

Excellent post Dan! Can't get any better than that.

Regards,

Bernardo

[thefish]

First of all, just about everything that I had to say was covered FAR MORE succinctly by Dan Borton, (as everyone knows, the OTHER Dan is a long-winded so-and-so...Hey, I teach college, it's my job.)

Mannie, if you make it to Annie Oakley, (and you WILL make it to Annie Oakley, RIGHT?) you'll have a chance to try all sorts of different designs and styles, (Chris Camp has a Bag of Supersonic Goodness that is like a sample platter of whip makers.) And you're more than welcome to pick up my Jacka any time and see the difference for yourself.

As Borton says...It's VERY different, and I USED to have a problem going from my Jacka Whip to Nolan Indy, and even my Strain Lonestar which by design, (longer handle/slightly tighter transition,) is closer to the Jacka.

The current "Favorite 2" in my whip bag, are my 6.5 Jacka, (the standard "Australian Bullwhip" carried by Western Stage Props, and at one time David Morgan,) and an 8' Indy whip that Paul Nolan made for himself, but made the mistake of letting me crack it once, and it was mine from then on. Everything that I do with one, I CAN do with the other.

The strengths of the Jacka are speed, accuracy, and that "Progressive Flexibility," (thanks for sharing that term with us, Dan. That's the best way I can imagine to describe it!) acts like a slingshot when cracking in the traditional "Against Bias" way that most of us use. Result? It cracks loudly if you breath on it. Goes BANG every time. But I can throw it slow, and fluidly, and sinewy with all sorts of nifty flicks in there. Target cutting, wraps, you name it. It does it.

The Indy whip flows like water. It just feels SO good rolling out. It's strengths are that it's slow and sinewy, and just a beautiful whip to watch. Wraps beautifully, and the person wrapped barely notices it's there, (I think this has to do with how I break them in. I traded a Strain to whip performer Gery Deer because his WIFE who is is his performance parter, and gets wrapped quite often, REALLY liked it, and Paul really wants the 8 foot that he made back now because of how it handles now. So, there's two great endorsements. Want a whip broken in beautifully, send 'em to ME!) But the Nolan is so light and straight that it can handle like a 6 foot whip, and I'm just about as accurate with it, (but not quite,) as I am with the Jacka.

I love both. I use both. Though I find myself reaching for the Jacka more when I'm performing or teaching.

This has lead me to my most recent statement regarding these whips: "The Jacka when I'm cracking whips for other people. The Nolan when I'm cracking whips for ME!"

Anyway, all the best and happy cracking. GREAT THREAD, by the way Mannie! It's been interesting reading. Thanks!

-The Other Dan

(P.S. The Other Dan, would like to wish the FIRST Dan a VERY happy B-Day! You know, I'd heard that there was a line in Jan DeBont's rejected "Indy IV" script between Indy and Marion that is fitting: "It ain't the miles, sweetheart, it's the years...")

[Mannie Bothans]

Hey thefish, was the whip you traded to Gery kind of a dark brown in color? I think that might have been the very first whip I've ever cracked in my entire life. Small world, eh?

Does anyone know how long the handle was on the 16plait Zorro whip that Anthony Hopkins put the candle out with?

[myrddin]

Does anyone know how long the handle was on the 16plait Zorro whip that Anthony Hopkins put the candle out with?

Ask Joe Strain. He made it.

*It was the personal whip of Hopkin's stunt double, not the same one used at the beginning of the movie. The stunt man had Joe make another one after production as a gift to Hopkins

[BullWhipBorton]

Thanks, I’ve done wraps with bullwhips as short as 3feet long, but in my opinion they look and work better with longer whips.

Thanks Dan, I appreciated the early b-day wishes, I’ll stand by “its not the years, it’s the mileage!”

Does anyone know how long the handle was on the 16plait Zorro whip that Anthony Hopkins put the candle out with?

You could ask Paul Nolan too, he owns it. viewtopic.php?t=17666
The handle on my JS Zorro whip, which was supposed to be similar is 14 inches long.

Dan

[midwestwhips]

Hi Mannie,

I measured just to make sure, and the length of the handle on the zorro whip that Hopkins used to put the candles out is 12 inches long. The handle is also much more flexible than all of the other Zorro and Alex Green whips I have seen and cracked.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com

[Mannie Bothans]

Hi Mannie,

I measured just to make sure, and the length of the handle on the zorro whip that Hopkins used to put the candles out is 12 inches long. The handle is also much more flexible than all of the other Zorro and Alex Green whips I have seen and cracked.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com

Thanks Paul!
This brings up another whole issue-- how do different handle foundation materials affect the action... Hmm.

[thefish]

Hey thefish, was the whip you traded to Gery kind of a dark brown in color? I think that might have been the very first whip I've ever cracked in my entire life. Small world, eh?

8 foot DEEP brown, almost mahogany whip with red in the knots?

Like THIS? http://www.northernwhipco.com/bullwhip, ... ndy_ls.htm

(actually, exactly like that as that's the pic Joe sent me when it was done.)

And I tend to use "Miles>Years" myself Dan. Welcome to 34! I only beat you by a couple months. Unfortunately, it's not exactly a race you WANT to win ;-)

As to the Zorro whips, there are real evolutionary differences in how Joe has made them, (the 16 plait used in the film that Paul has, the first of the production line, and the current offerings.) The one that Paul has, if you haven't cracked it, (he'll most likely have it at Annie Oakley,) as Paul says, is VERY flexy compared to the production line one that Gery has. And Gery's Zorro is ever so slightly heavier than the saddle tan #001 "Alex Green" signature whip that Gery has, (same design/construction. Just a different color and different silver band.) And both of those feel different than the later production model of Zorro of John Bailey's that I've handled, (that could also be as he's beat the @#$% out of it, and has replaced the fall with >SHUDDER< Nylon! BLASPHEMY!!!)

I spoke with Joe about this not long ago, and he talked a bit about what he's changed in the design over the years. Alex's "Zorro" whip was one of his early whips, and he's refined the design a lot since then. He's dropped the shot loading that he used to do, (just a little in the transition area of the thong to give it a little kick,) and on the new ones, he's using his normal steel rod foundation rather than the cane he had been using.

Foundation materials do make a big difference. To me, all of the control and accuracy and force we use is channeled through the handle, (others might "Visualize" it differently, and that doesn't really matter, because we're essentially all doing the same thing, regardless of our personal approach.) The mass of the handle is what you're initially accelerating, and so it's all that force that's being transferred down the thong. Regardless of how well made and tightly plaited the thong is, it can only work with what it's given. More mass to the handle means more energy transferred down the length of the thong.

That is not to say that a heavier whip works better. It's about distribution. I've handled whips that to "dead lift" pick it up, felt kind of heavy, but cracking it, felt light as a feather. Vice versa, I've picked up whips that felt incredibly light coiled up in your hand, and then felt like you were swinging a brick around.

It's all about balance. How a whip balances out will greatly effect how it behaves. What is "Best" for that is all a matter of taste.

My 8' whip's point of balance is RIGHT in front of the Spanish knot. I can put my finger there so one side of my fingertip is touching the knot, and it will just balance right there. It's a steel rod with a considerable amount of lead in the butt, (incidently, to give credit where it's due, I got the whole "finding the balance point" thing from Paul.)

That 8' Strain whip that I'm fairly sure was the "first whip you'd cracked," (Good start, by the way! You're gonna be SO spoiled!) has a center of balance a little bit further up the thong, so it's a little "Nose Heavy," (and Gery didn't like it too much because of that when he first cracked it, but it grew on him, and now I couldn't get it back from him for love, money, blackmail, or anything else.) It has a longer steel rod, but has less lead in the butt knot.

My Jacka whip's point of balance is even FURTHER up the transition. It has a long fiberglass foundation, and little to no lead in the butt, plus the heavier leather that Terry uses for bolster material and all that sinew binding he uses in that "Progressive Flexibility" zone really throw the weight toward the front, (and if/when Terry starts his custom orders, I'm going to see if he'll do me one like I've got but with a steel foundation, just to throw the balance toward the back a bit, just because I think it would be AWESOME.)

Just a difference in whether it's cane, or aluminum, or steel, or solid rod or hollow tubing does make a big difference in how a whip behaves.

Are any of these differences qualitative? Not at all. They're just different. They feel different, they behave different, but it's like the differences in a Ferrari or Lamborghini. They are BOTH amazing and beautiful, and handle wonderfully. Just different.

You just need to try a bunch of different ones, and see which you like and make your choices based on that.

All the best!

-Dan

[Canuck Digger]

I love where this thread is going.

Coming from a multi-disciplinary background, which includes a few different styles of fencing and swordplay, I always treid to get the balance point as close to the ring knot as I could, while still maintaining a butt knot that wasn't too big to hold in the hand comfortably. It must be the aloy of the lead tape I use (it isn't %100 pure lead) but I could never get it to balance before the ring knot. Not that you would want it much before that anyways, but just to say that this is always the goal. So far (I mean not counting the whips I used to make as a kid), they all handle pretty well and crack easily, or at least they feel that way to me. Nobody I've ever made one for has ever said anything about them being too nose heavy, but in this regard I have to say that I pay particular attention to the weight and taper of the fall. I used to make them very light, like on some Mike Murphy whips, and now I prefer to use a heavier fall but that tapers to a bit of a fine point (but not TOO fine), and I find this works very well for my whips. It's all a matter of taste of course.

[BullWhipBorton]

And I tend to use "Miles>Years" myself Dan. Welcome to 34! I only beat you by a couple months. Unfortunately, it's not exactly a race you WANT to win

Actully i turned 35 but hey 34 works too

Great reply to the how do different handle foundation materials affect the action of the whip too. You also touched on another important point and something you will see alot of around here not only with the Indy bullwhips but with most whips overall. Whip makers like to change how they do things from time to time and that with out a doubt will change how those whips perform. You can have a whip made from a whipmaker thats a few years old and then place an order for another from that same whip maker for that same modle currently and when it arrives it will preform like a completly different whip all together due to those changes.

Dan

[Canuck Digger]

That is a very good point.

It's the eternal quest for one's personal idea of what works best.

For instance, if you compare the whips I make now to those I made 3-4 years ago, they are much tighter, the strands are wider and the transition zone is shorter. The present whips also tend to be a bit heavier than the earlier ones, along with a ring knot that is placed a bit earlier, giving the impression of a slightly shorter handle, though the foundation is still 8 inches long. The fall is heavier too and the core runs further into the thong now than it did before. These are all changes that happen one at a time, but of course if you fast forward a few years, then it will seem like a lot, but they were all brought about by the desire to always make a better whip and by an on-going understanding of whipmaking, and last but not least an evolving easthetic balance.

Change is normal and unavoidable, so if you buy a whip from someone and you really like it, do like I do with shirts, buy another straightaway, cause by the time you're done with this one, the style will have changed again...

[kooniu]

I see similar trends in my own workshop. My earlier whips was heavier, wider and limp (wet noodle ) than presently.

I have other qwestion what you think about flexibility ?

I heard always that soft whip (like wet noodle) is bad, but I have 2 whips (bull and stock) very limp and this whips cracking and working very well. :

[thefish]

And I tend to use "Miles>Years" myself Dan. Welcome to 34! I only beat you by a couple months. Unfortunately, it's not exactly a race you WANT to win

Actully i turned 35 but hey 34 works too

OK, so YOU'RE winning ;-) I thought I was a little ahead of you, but I guess I was a lap down.

I'm OK with that

And change is a good thing with something you're passionate about. I think every single project is an experimentation of some kind. You refine something with each passing job. I know that every time I finish editing a video or building a website, I'm taking something away from it that I'll use on the next one, (sometimes, a THAT was cool! I'll do that way from now on," and sometimes, "I'll NEVER do that again!")

Whip making is the certainly the same way. I know Paul Nolan still keeps a notebook that he writes down how he's doing a particular whip so he has a record, and he's always experimenting with new ideas and looking at other whip makers' work, (and I know others do this too. Paul is just the guy I know best.) My favorite whip is one that he made about 2 years ago. It was just perfect. I've handled a bunch of stuff he's made since, and I can SEE the refinements in the design since mine was made; The fantastic bits he took from the making of mine, and put immediately to work in what he's done since.

Unfortunately, sometimes people want what we consider to be our "more primitive," and not our best work. Case in point, people contacting David Morgan and asking him do construct their whip like he did for the films 20 some years ago, (the Raiders whip being the most commonly desired look I see mentioned around here, and who can blame ya?)

But those first film whips were Glenn Randall's personal whips. Many of them might have been kip hide from the days of the Kangaroo Embargo of the 70's. David had JUST started selling his own whips then, and while he was good, he certainly didn't have the experience that he gained when he started selling them, and getting more feedback from talented whip crackers.

Folks here seem to respect that decision, but don't really quite understand it. It's a matter of pride. If you are a highly skilled, and competent painter who's studied with the masters, attended renowned art schools, and painted masterpieces, it's like being asked to do a crayon drawing like the one you did back in elementary school, (OK, somewhat extreme analogy. I think I'd be happier with a vintage '78-79 Morgan than I would be a crayon drawing, but I think you get the point.)

So, I like what Canuck Digger says. If you find a whip maker you like, buy a BUNCH of stuff from him all at once, before he changes how he does it! (not that I care about the changes that occur to the whips, but I'll take ANY excuse to buy lots of whips!)

Anyway, Viva la Evolution!

All the best, and Happy Cracking,

-The other, YOUNGER Dan

[Mannie Bothans]

Thanks a million to everyone who has already chimed in here to help dispel my ignorance. I finally settled on a special-ordered 6.5ft bullwhip with an 11 inch handle foundation by Joe Strain. Ladies and gentlemen, my very first whip should be in my hands tomorrow and it is what it is because of your insights and shared wisdom. Thank you.

(And a huge thank you to Joe Strain for taking the time to answer every email I sent and walk me through many many decision changes. He's an artist and a saint.)

[Cracker]

Mannie, I know I don't have to ask, but I will anyway. Please post pics of your whip when you receive it

[Mannie Bothans]

Mannie, I know I don't have to ask, but I will anyway. Please post pics of your whip when you receive it

Thanks. I posted the pic Joe e-mailed to me at viewtopic.php?t=32655





I would love to have a Zorro-esque whip of the same length, handle length, and balance to do two-whip routines with. I haven't even received my first whip ye and I am already saving up for my second.

[Cracker]

Sorry Mannie, I had seen that post and then forgot about it. Great looking whip you have there ! I think I want to try a 10 or 11 inch handle before to long.

[techrtr]

Awesome thread! I've been comparing my new Caicedo to my old, much longer handled and more flexible whip. The two whips handle completely differently and I was having a real hard time conceptualizing why one was so completely different from the other. This thread really helped me to understand how dimensions and construction affect how a whip handles, and determine, to some extent, what types of cracking a whip is best suited for.

[Shagbd]

WOW
where HAVE i been?

this thread needs to be stickied or something, some of the posts made by "The Two Dans" is really TEXTBOOK level stuff!

Great posts guy! and great thread!
I have absolutly NOTHING constructive to add beyond saying "whips are cool"....... so ill leave it at that