Question: Halfmoon/Fullmoon clips with the S&W .45 ACP

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:53 am

Ok. I went to the range today and a few thoughts and questions came to mind.

I know/heard/read that you are supposed to use the halfmoon or fullmoon clips for the .45 ACP round in the 1917.

However, there's something I noticed on my gun early on. Part of the inside of each chamber (nearest to the hammer) is bored to the size and length of the round. After that, the diameter is slightly smaller. And when loaded, the spacing between the rim of the round and the cylinder is the same with or without the clip. (I'll supply photos of what I am talking about.)

My question is on the 1917,what happens when you don't use the clip with the .45 ACP? Does the round fall right through the cylinder? Basically with my gun, I don't have to use the clips. I don't have use of the extractor but the rounds can be removed using my fingers. For this gun, the clips are nothing more than a speed loader.

Then, I did some thinking and reading and came up with a conclusion and perhaps somebody could tell me if I am correct. The gun I have is a S&W 1937 Brazilian Contract. Learning from the 1917 guns, S&W may have thought that clips would have been difficult if not impossible to obtain in Brazil. So, they bore the cylinder to the exact length of the .45 ACP round so the soldiers don't have to worry about finding clips on boats or in the jungle.

If this is the case, I think this could be a really cool and unique feature of my gun. I can't find much documentation regarding S&W's contract with Brazil. There may have been specific documentation regarding the use of clips in the revolvers. In the spirit of something new to talk about, I thought I would ask this question here first before I hit the S&W forums.

Thanks,
Pyroxene

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:12 am

Michaelson can give a much thorough explanation, but you don't have to use half-moon or full-moon clips for the 45acp, 1917. Just consider the clip as a speed loader. You shoot off a full road, and just drop a fully loaded clip and you are firing again. Much quicker than just loading each chamber.

-S

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:47 am

I was wondering about that. Extracting rounds from fullmoon clips was a pain. At www.moonclips.com they sell a de-mooner tool. Works really well with fullmoon clips.

S&W has fullmoon clips on backorder. Right now, I only have 2 clips. It's not that big of a deal as I am only working on 2-hand grip and proper stance. But, I see a need in the future.

Pyro..

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:01 pm

Pyroxene wrote:I was wondering about that. Extracting rounds from fullmoon clips was a pain. At www.moonclips.com they sell a de-mooner tool. Works really well with fullmoon clips.

S&W has fullmoon clips on backorder. Right now, I only have 2 clips. It's not that big of a deal as I am only working on 2-hand grip and proper stance. But, I see a need in the future.

Pyro..

I got mine from ebay. There is a guy that sells them regularly there. About 10 clips, with a demooner for about $15.

-S

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:29 pm

The replacement barrel I had installed on my 1917 has deeper rifling than the original, which had shallow rifling for use with full-jacketed .45 ACP rounds. Because of this, I am going to have my gunsmith (yeah, Pyro...it's Tip!) ream the cylinder chambers for .45 Colt. I will then be able to shoot .45 Colt and .45 Schofield (.45 Smith & Wesson). Already owning a couple of revolvers chambered for these rounds, I thought it would just make sense to be able to use it in my "Indy" revolver! It will still chamber .45 ACP rounds, minus the half-/full-moon clips.

Higganum · Post by **Higganum** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:50 pm

Pyroxene,
The 45 acp cartridge is a rimless case for the Colt m-1911 autoloader. It is rimless to afford smooth feeding from the magazine The m-1917, and the Brazilian variant m-1937, used the s&w -designed half-moon clips to provide something for the revolver's extractor to push against. Swing-out revolvers ordinarily use a rimmed case to prevent the cartridge from going too deep into the chamber, thus providing a positive stop to receive the firing pin blow. Second, the rim provides a surface for the extractor star to engage and so eject the fired cases. M-1917 Smiths do have the chamber "step" which you see in your M-1937. This chamber does support the un-clipped cartridge to receive the firing pin blow. The half-moon clips allowed one-stroke ejection of empties, same as for rimmed cases. Remember, these guns were intended as combat weapons; picking out the empties with your fingernails could prove fatal in a fight! Also, I have no doubt that the clips, reusable though they are, were intended to be expendable in the field, in the same fashion as Mauser-type stripper clips or M1 Garand clips.

Moving on.

Ron C,
You mention having your cylinder re-chambered to 45 Colt. As I recall your previous posts, you have a 45 ACP chambered gun, no? Check with you gunsmith on this, but you will not achieve the results you desire. The combined "stack-up" thickness of the 45 ACP case and half-moon clip significantly exceed the rim thickness of the 45 Colt. If you re-chamber your 45 ACP to 45 Colt, you will be unable to use 45 acp without the clips as you will have moved the front of the chamber forward to take the longer 45 Colt and they will no longer support the un-clipped ACP's . Furthermore, the reason unclipped acp's work is because the acp case is rather "sharp" at the front as the case is not crimped. 45 colts are crimped to reain the bullet and so present a tapered front end on the case. I doubt that this will adequately support the 45 Colt to receive the firing pin blow. Due to the previously mentioned dimensional differences regrding rim thickness, I ithink you will see unreliable ignition with 45 Colt A 455 cylinder can be faced off for use with both 45 Auto Rim and clipped 45 ACP. This is the conversion commonly done on both M-1917's and Webleys. Or, the 455 Smith can be rechambered for 45 Colt. In either case, you can no longer use 455's.There have been a number of articles over the years regarding these conversions. I can provide reference to them if you would like. In my opinion, proceeding on your proposed course will produce shoddy results and ruin a good 1917. We can't afford to lose any.

Regards,

Higganum

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:14 pm

Very Interesting. That's what I like about this forum, you learn more and more all the time.

Thanks,
Pyro

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:35 pm

I forgot, welcome aboard!

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:37 pm

Higganum, you are correct in stating that the .45 ACP will not headspace/seat correctly in the cylinder once it is reamed to take .45 Colt and .45 S&W (.45 Schofield). That is no problem for me, as I will only be using the 2 aforementioned rounds once the cylinder has been re-worked. I had previously fired .45 ACP rounds without using half-, or full-moon clips, and there was no problem (except excessive flash owing to a HUGE barrel-cylinder gap...filed there by a previous owner!!!). However, upon getting my revolver back from my gunsmith, now with the proper gap, I found that .45 ACP rounds in clips, as well as .45 Auto Rim will not allow the cylinder to seat. This leads me to believe that my revolover, which has the "not English made" stamp of a Lend-Lease revolver, was fitted with a .455 Eley cylinder when it was sent to England in WW2. It had been re-bored for .45 ACP upon its return, and the cylinder-barrel gap "mangled" in an effort to get the clipped .45 ACP cartridges to work properly. I have measured, and the thinner rims on .45 Colt and .45 S&W rounds will allow the cylinder to seat properly. I look forward to firing it, especially with the mild .45 Schofield rounds, once the cylinder chambers have been reamed.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:58 am

Boy, you sure rattle old brain cells with discussions like this. I remember there was a VERY good Guns and Ammo write up/review when then Brazilian contract 1917's first arrived on our shores back in the '80's. As I recall, they were available for around $250 then. Yes, I still have that issue buried in one of my boxes in the garage attic. Just finding it.....

Regards. Michaelson

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:01 pm

Michaelson, there is a very nice 1937 Brazilian contract S&W at the Arm Chair Gunshow / Old Town Station website...I think they only want $285 for it!!!!....is that tempting or what?!?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:54 pm

Holy smokes! That's one GREAT price!!!

Regards. Michaelson

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:01 pm

It's really temptiong to get it and have a "Bapty" version (the one I have now) AND a "Stembridge" version of Indy's revolver!!!!

...but, then, I have a friend who wants to sell his Webley Mk. VI as well......decisions, decisions!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:59 pm

Yeah. Must be tough. (grins)

Regards. Michaelson

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:57 pm

Michaelson wrote: I remember there was a VERY good Guns and Ammo write up/review when then Brazilian contract 1917's first arrived on our shores back in the '80's.

Wow. If you could find that, it would be great. I've have been having a great time shooting the gun.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:00 pm

Well, got to dig into that mess sometime. Guess this is just another good reason to dive into the pile sooner than later. Stay tuned. Regards. Michaelson

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:42 pm

A guy from the Smith & Wesson Forum sent me a copy of a 1993 Gun digest article on the 1917 in Nicaragua. Pretty cool!