ToD and US Wings

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:20 pm

Admittedly, my knowledge of the Temple of Doom jacket is spotty, but I believe that US Wings made the original jacket (or actually Cooper did and then became Wings or were bought out by Wings?).

Given this pedigree, I was wondering why US Wings didn't make a ToD jacket. The research has been done on the specs and it would be something of a selling point to buy one from the original manufacturer. Add in the fact that there aren't many companies making this jacket (although props have to be given to Magnoli's excellent jacket), it would seem that this would be a good seller for the company.

Thoughts?

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:07 pm

I think that the owner of US Wings doesn't differentiate between the three movies, to his way of thinking it's an Indiana Jones adventure jacket not so much a Raiders or Temple of Doom or whatever (well atleast before KotCS). He doesn't seem willing to change the Cooper pattern which is what it would take to create a "Raiders" and "Last Crusade" and "Kingdom" jacket. Then they'd have to advertize the differences. Now if they only kept the one pattern and called it what it really is a "Temple of Doom" jacket they'd probably get less sales (because it's movie specific) rather than marketing it as an Indiana Jones adventure jacket which theoretically would appeal to more folks. Essentually lots of work for not much pay off. All this is just my guess, take it with a grain of salt.

Doug C

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:25 pm

Okay, so my knowledge of the subject is really off then (or maybe I'm misunderstanding). The current Wings jacket is based on the Cooper pattern?

I've got a Wings jacket and, while I like it a lot, it doesn't seem to match the specs or the look that I've seen for the ToD jacket. For example, the pockets aren't small by any means.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:41 pm

the wings did make the ToD jacket back then..but do not use the same pattern for their adventure jacket.

a long while back we fans pushed them to make a screen accurate ToD jacket again..giving them specs and pictures about this and that...until they said enough allready! it stops here...this is the jacket we make..if you like it buy it.if you dont,leave it.

thats about it.

Holt

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:10 pm

Sorry for the ignorance but: what is the relation between Cooper and US Wings? Thanks for any enlightment.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:38 pm

Wings owned Cooper

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:54 pm

They now Own cooper, is the way I understand it. I guess Indy style jackets don't make up enough business for Wings to bother with new patterns and all. I think it's a far cry to claim that a Wings jacket is a ToD jacket too, I mean Cooper made the hero jacket but that is not the jacket that Wings is kicking out now. The only similarity in my mind is the bigger back yolk, otherwise it's only in pedigree and lineage.

Doug C

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:29 am

Ok they own Cooper, but they don't use the name "Cooper" on their jackets. It seems not a good marketing choice. Is like I buy the Ferrari or Jaguar factory and change the name! A lot of people outside USA know the name Cooper, but - no offense - no one knows the US Wings brand.

Of course I speak from a foreign country point of view.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:11 am

Short story....Wings was the money behind Cooper. Without U. S. Wings financial backing, Cooper would not have existed. Cooper operated through 1984 (and it's last hurrah was TofD), then Cooper gave up the company back to Wings and got out of the business. Wings was always the money behind Cooper, and if you look at some of their old catalogs from that time period, they DID continue to carry the Cooper name for a short period, but then decided it was to costly.

The U. S. Wings name was carried forward, and the Cooper name retired. That's why it says 'since 1985' on the Wings label.

Regards! Michaelson

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:57 am

...Stupid question but was this the same Cooper leather who made baseball gloves?

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:21 am

Indiana Strones wrote: A lot of people outside USA know the name Cooper, but - no offense - no one knows the US Wings brand. Of course I speak from a foreign country point of view.

I believe you are thinking of Lee-Cooper. Probably not the same Cooper as the jackets.

Lee-Cooper is a well-known brand outside the U.S.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:23 am

Michaelson wrote:and if you look at some of their old catalogs from that time period, they DID continue to carry the Cooper name for a short period, but then decided it was to costly.

Too costly why? It was their property.

: Anyway thanks for the explanation!

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:26 am

Indiana Strones wrote: Too costly why? It was their property. : Anyway thanks for the explanation!

Well, if you have to market and advertise for two different names, that can be costly.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:11 am

Indiana Strones wrote:
Michaelson wrote:and if you look at some of their old catalogs from that time period, they DID continue to carry the Cooper name for a short period, but then decided it was to costly.
Too costly why? It was their property. : Anyway thanks for the explanation!

Well, they were supporting the operation of two factories, and two name brands....Coopers and their own interests, so they combined operations and closed the Cooper name out.

Regards! Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:26 pm

Short story....Wings was the money behind Cooper. Without U. S. Wings financial backing, Cooper would not have existed.

Wings was always the money behind Cooper,

Really?

Boy, that Sarge does look mighty good for a guy who is approaching
130 years old!!

Why you ask? Because the Cooper Sportswear company was founded
and started making aviation jackets in 1910!

They started their long history of making clothing items for the US
government as far back as WWI.

Cooper government production history:

· Raincoats were manufactured for the Army between the years 1917-1918.
· Original & revised Field Jackets were made continuously during WWII and after WWII and covered the years 1941-
1945.
· Cooper made winter climate field jackets in 1943-44.
· Cooper Sportswear was one of the many manufacturers of the famous
A-2 jackets during WWII.
· Cooper Sportswear received the first modern day A-2 contract issued in 1988. The contract amount was 53,000 units
or $5.3 million. Cooper Sportswear won other A-2 contracts through 1997.
· Cooper Sportswear won the first modern day award for the US Navy and Marines G-1 flyer’s jackets. The award was
issued in 1989 and Cooper manufactured G-1’s steadily through 1997.
· Neil Cooper USA was awarded a Jr. ROTC Uniform jackets contract in 1998.

The A-2 facility that Cooper Sportswear used during WWII was in Newark
N.J., about an hours drive from where I live.

I think your original statements are, well, not quite correct there my friend. I do believe that the Cooper Sportswear company did alot of business
on their own for almost 75 years before Sarge go into the picture.

Well, that is, unless Sarge is actually 130 years old.

Flathead

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:46 pm

Cooper took a loan through Wings (like I said, they were the 'money' that kept Cooper alive, as Cooper was going under at that time) in the late 70's in order to partner with Wings. Without that money, they would have gone bankrupt.

Cooper gave up the company and business in the mid 80's. What else would you like to know?

Regards! Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:51 pm

I knew thats what you meant.

I just wanted to have a little fun at the statements you made.

Flathead

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:51 pm

The way I read the first statement was that USW was the money behind wings towards the end of it's life.

No need for the boxing gloves, you can get all you want of that from talk radio hosts!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:53 pm

I can't help being short. This is as tall as got.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:54 pm

Yep, that's it. They were the money that kept them afloat for about the last 6 or 7 years, then had to assume the assets and business when Neil Cooper pulled out.

No boxing gloves at all! Old Flathead and I go WAY back and compare notes this way all the time.

Heck, he's forgotten more about jacket specifications than I'll ever HOPE to know!

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:55 pm

Sometimes a name (with a lineage) can be considered valuable. Just look at how many people have chosen Wested and now Tony Novak, just based on the fact that they made jackets for the movies. There are many people here that badly want to talk themselves into buying a Wings jacket just based on the linage and link to TOD. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just pointing out the old adage "what's in a name?". Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:56 pm

Provenance goes a long way with folks, that's sure a fact!

Regard! Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:56 pm

No need for the boxing gloves, you can get all you want of that from talk radio hosts!

No gloves out on my side.

Just having some fun with the statements made.

I like to quote people, ask a question about the quote, and then watch
what happens.

Although, that does sound strangely like a talkshow now, doesn't it...

Flathead

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:01 pm

Well, sometimes it's like a Senate subcommittee meeting, and I'm the one who got the subpona.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:13 pm

I usually plead the 5th.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:25 pm

If Cooper was in Newark, is it possible that Schott ended up with the patterns?

Has anyone called Gail at Schott and asked her some questions?

She's really great, and always takes the time to help you with sizing, or any other questions you might have...

This struck me as I was reading the history of Cooper, making the A-2's etc. over the years, in NJ above. I know that Schott claims to be making their A-2 from "the original patterns", although we all know there were several makers, and therefore several patterns. I do not know for sure if Schott was in fact a contractor during the war(s), however I do know that they have been making leather jackets (as far as I know) the longest continually in the world. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that (with a brand name!)...

And, yes, lineage DOES go a long way. When it was time for a Moto jacket, there was only one choice: Schott. For my Raider's jacket: Wested. If I get other Indy jackets (movie specific) I could see wanting to have the original maker make the jacket (which is what started that other thread for the ToD jacket), but at the same time, if that original maker has diluted the style and details over the years, it needs to be brought back to 'spec'.

The A-2 is a good example. Many are put off when they realize how SMALL it is. It is a military cut, designed when people on average were shorter than they are these days, so you have to order up a size. I personally LIKE the 'snug' military fit, although my A-2 is long gone (I out grew it). So, the makers 'update' the style/patterns to make it fit or "Body by McDonalds" shape of the 21st century.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but checking with Gail at Schott might not be a bad idea for those patterns... The worst she could say is: No. Actually, the worst she could say is "No, I won't check"...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:55 pm

Here's another interesting tidbit on Cooper I just read (while researching A-2 jackets):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-2_jacket

"Neil Cooper USA (recently taken over by Ohio-based U.S. Wings) is not the same firm as Cooper Sportswear from WW2 times - even though Neil Cooper's grandfather headed the earlier company, and both had contracts to supply A-2 jackets to the US military in their respective eras."

So there is distinction among Cooper jackets!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:09 pm

Rundquist wrote:Sometimes a name (with a lineage) can be considered valuable. Just look at how many people have chosen Wested and now Tony Novak, just based on the fact that they made jackets for the movies. There are many people here that badly want to talk themselves into buying a Wings jacket just based on the linage and link to TOD. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just pointing out the old adage "what's in a name?". Cheers

Well, obviously I fall into that category.

I don't know there's just something appealing to me for my jacket to go through the same hands (or something to that effect) as the original movie jacket.

Call me crazy (many people do).

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:03 pm

So then, let me just give the dead horse just one more kick before we turn it into glue: the company called Cooper is around. It's making stuff, and then it starts to lose money, so Wings comes in and financially saves its butt. Now Cooper and Wings are pretty much the same. Cooper goes and makes the ToD jackets, and afterwards, dies out and Wings takes full control. AND - also, Wested had nothing to do with the creation of ToD jackets other than having previously made the Raiders jackets on which they were based (on part or in whole) on.

Is this correct?

Shane

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:11 pm

I think that's right, but I'm not sure...

(head spinning...)

Tollan · Post by **Tollan** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:16 pm

Although... Peter DID say that he made some jackets for the film, which may or may not have been used (as breach of contract). Were the cooper jackets loosely based on Peter's jackets that he made? Also, why did they not use Peter's creations? This is not made clear, and is a point of interest.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:23 pm

The ToD jacket write up is still in the works and should hopefully be up soon. It will tell you everything you need to know. Sit tight.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:58 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:The ToD jacket write up is still in the works and should hopefully be up soon. It will tell you everything you need to know. Sit tight.

This write-up wait is almost on par with an AB's!

Stop teasing us! We demand answers!

Post by **Holt** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:40 pm

what they say again?

good things come to those who wait.

bests
Holt

Zombie Jones · Post by **Zombie Jones** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:02 am

Indiana Holt wrote:what they say again?

good things come to those who wait.

bests
Holt

Agreed. As I say about a great many things, I'd rather have it right than have it right now.