NH vs Wested pants

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:55 pm

Hi,
I received a sample of NH pants from a COW member.
To my surprise the color is identical to Wested's (but not identical to the MBA I own).

So to avoid mishaps I thought to make a poll to see what you guys think since I am planning to dye the fabric to the same color as the sample I received.

The poll will end in 15 days. If when finished the majority has voted yes I will try to dye the color as per sample. If you answer no, then I am gonna need a new sample.

Let's see.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:58 pm

Let me correct that. The guy who sent me the sample is not a COW member. His name is David L. Garirison.

He's the Local Surveyor who worked with Steve Delk on the hat measurements. He was the one who did the photographs showing the hat proportions.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:21 pm

I have a pair of NH pants and a pair of Wested pants and they are absolutely, positively, exactly identical. I have taken both pairs to the Finger Lakes summit for the past couple of years to show anyone that doubted it or wanted to check it out. I think they used the same supplier for their material.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:47 am

buff...you made me go double check and i must recant my previous post stating that NH used heavier weight fabric than westeds. you are right, they are pretty much the same.....NH raiders and wested pants.

the reason why i thought NH used heavier weight fabric is because there's more 'guts' to the NH pants which make them heavier (perhaps heavier weight material on the inner pocket materials...or maybe even heavier buttons....i'm not sure). both pants have virtually the same material in colour and weight but the NH's are heavier overall from what i can tell.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:54 am

Funny. My MBA pants are lighter in color than the Westeds and lighter in weight too.

What worries me is that if MBA pants is a different color than NH, it's easy that film pants are different than both the MBA and NH. The MBA look like the film color to me and Wested look a bit darker.

Therefore which color do you want me to go for? MBA or NH? (Wested)?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:46 am

Also, the pants weren't the same color in all three movies. My NH pants are Raiders pants. They are the ones that are the same as the Wested pants.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:46 pm

Wow!! This really complicates matters... :evil:

From this findings I can develop some theories:

1) Noel Howard's raiders pants stock might have ended after retirement and therefore he was making a unique offering of LC/ToD pants. I find this as highly improbable because he would have stated that his stock was run out.

2) If Noel's ran out of stock maybe he went in search for new material and he found exactly the same supplier as Wested...therefore, same colour, etc...

A kind request to all members...if anyone has NH ToD/LC pants please post a picture here! Thank you!!

Here is a pic of pants. From left to right: MBA raiders, Wested 2005-2006, Wested recent. Note that Wested pants tend to show a red colour hue.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:58 am

Keep voting, keep voting....

So far most of you say NH is a different color than Wested. I hope those who voted have handled both...

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:06 pm

Over the years, from MBA to NH, Noel's suppliers may have changed. Noel also offered different pants for the different movies. Some people may be comparing NH non-Raiders pants to the Wested pants. Some NH gear may be older or newer, who knows.

But, like I said, I have some Wested pants and some NH Raiders pants that are only a couple of years old, and the material is exactly the same, and most likely from the exact same supplier. I can't even tell them apart without looking inside at the label. I have even taken both pairs to the Finger Lakes Summit for folks to compare and see that they are identical.

If everyone's NH Raiders pants are the same as mine, I have no idea how they can possibly vote that NH and Wested are different colors.

I think that first off, for a poll like this, only people that own or have compared both pairs of pants should vote. Also, you should only vote if the NH and Wested pants are from the same movie. Otherwise, I really don't know what this poll could possibly prove.

Indybantha Jones · Post by **Indybantha Jones** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:25 pm

I can see some slight difference in color, but they are overall very close.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:39 pm

I think that first off, for a poll like this, only people that own or have compared both pairs of pants should vote. Also, you should only vote if the NH and Wested pants are from the same movie. Otherwise, I really don't know what this poll could possibly prove.

When we talking pants we talking raiders pants. If we werent had to mention TOD LC or KOTCS

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:24 pm

Indybantha Jones wrote:I can see some slight difference in color, but they are overall very close.

If yours are made from the same material as mine are, you may be seeing the slight differences that are sometimes apparent in different runs of the same material.

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:51 pm

I didn't vote because I only have the Wested and a pair of Platon's first Paris pants. The colors are pretty close, if not exact, but I'll look closer when I go home tonight. The pants in the photo above don't look any where close to SA on my monitor. They look purple hued and like nothing I would want to wear.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:29 am

Hey Indiana MarkVII the pants you have from me have the 'pink' hue that we find in 'officers regulation trousers' also referred to as 'pinks' (for the obvious reason)

The Westeds are darker and have no resemblence to officers pinks. They do however look close to the film pants.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:46 am

Hey IndianaMark,

You are true that the picture above has a purple hue...This is due the fact that the picture was shot without flash

...I had to photoshop it in order to make the pic presentable. If you want, copy the picture and by using Office Picture manager or any other photoshop program remove the red hue. You ll see the slight differences.

Indygr

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:52 pm

Yes Platon, I concur. I checked my Platon pants against the Wested pair and the Wested is definately darker.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:48 am

If you check at my other thread, viewtopic.php?t=28496

I found the color of MBA pants, so it is pointless to talk about the NH color. I understand you all agree that MBA is more SA color than NH.

What do you think?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:48 pm

Quite frankly, neither MBA, NH, or Wested manufactured any of the material in their versions of the pants. They basicly just bought material that they thought looked as close as possible to the pants in the movie and that they had available at the time. I don't really see the point in trying to perfectly match what any of them bought. I would just try to make them as close to the color I see on screen as possible, and be happy with it. That's what they did.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:59 am

Supposedly Noel Howard who was with MBA at the time of Raiders and worked with the costume team was buying the same color from the same supplier they used for the film. Wested tried to match that.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:48 pm

PLATON wrote:Supposedly Noel Howard who was with MBA at the time of Raiders and worked with the costume team was buying the same color from the same supplier they used for the film. Wested tried to match that.

Since Peter and Noel were friends, Peter probably just asked him where to get it.

Mannie Bothans · Post by **Mannie Bothans** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:12 pm

indygr wrote: A kind request to all members...if anyone has NH ToD/LC pants please post a picture here! Thank you!!

Here is a link to a pair of NH Last Crusdae pants that were made circa 2002. To the eye, they are much more tan, but these pics make them look more pink than they actually are.

viewtopic.php?t=32123

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:48 pm

Thanks Mannie!

This colour is a typical shade of officer's pinks! As I thought...completely different than Raiders and maybe ToD.

Indygr

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:01 am

Yeap, true.
The LC pants are tan with the pink hue of officers pinks. To my opinion there is a simple reason for that. The tan/pink hue is the easiest to get shade of a hard to find fabric. They asked for cavalry twill and they were given the most common color.

Anyway, I am willing to bet that in TOD they used different colors pants. During the movie we see him wearing color near Rotla but in other scenes he is wearing very light (tan) color i.e. on the elephant, on the bridge etc. The conclusion is who knows?

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:47 am

Yes, it's true about ToD. That shade is closely related to the Raiders pants especially on the cairo rooftop, were a dark greyish tan is apparent.
About LC, I think that they chose that colour because chronologicaly that movie was closer to WWII.
Moreover, there was a statement in the old Indygear website by a person in the production who was saying that "for the public Indy wears an old pair of pants". Therefore, if the first version(Raiders) was more of a grey formal hue then the LC would be clear field trousers thus a lighter tan.
There's something that troubles me though...in the below production photo, the LC pants look very dark just like KOTCS or ToD, so it might be that various lighting conditions or other issues might have influenced the shade.

Actually here the pants look very Raiderish.

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:23 am

According to Peter the pants used in Raiders were original Pinks....PETER- "the pants in ROLA came straight from Nathan and Bermans stock of army costumes and were Officers Pinks.However, in the later films, having been destroyed, there was no stock.New stock was made."

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:50 am

That's not correct because officers pinks have on-seam pockets and are pleatless as opposed to Raiders which had sloping pockets and pleats.

So, the pants in Raiders were special construction for the film. They wanted them to look more civilian.

Watch Memphis Belle and you will see how Berman's pinks look there.
Also Berman couldn't have "original" pinks but repros.

I invite you also to examine the below photos

In the light

In the dark

Without military hem (4-5 inches)

Same here

But also here very dark color pants but I gues you can tell that there is something wrong with the colors of this photo

I don't know, I think it's obvious that he wore at least two different pants during filming.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:10 am

It may be true. One other reason is that they might have not used any filters or other various techniques at all(or the opposite). My MBA raiders pants had a light pinkish hue when I photographed them under pure sunlight. Be warned, my camera is a Sony Cybershot 1.3 megapixels.

Moreover, look at this LC production photo. It seems that is very old.

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/c20.jpg

In any case always my reaction is

Post by **Holt** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:23 am

just to chim in with this.here is the CS pants and shirt in direct daylight

bests
IH

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:19 am

There's no guarantee that the Noel Howard / MBA pants were the right color to begin with. Who's to say he got the identical color back in the mid 80's? Maybe he just got it as close as he could?

Besides, dye lots change dramatically from one bolt of fabric to the next let alone over many many years. It's hard to find 2 pairs of mass produced blue jeans that are the same color or fit even if they were made side by side.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:57 am

That's why one should just buy the color he likes (from what's available) and forget about SA color. What we have today is merely approximations.

To summarize I can offer two colors Raiders and LC with SA and NH flaps respectively.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:45 am

Exactly Platon, get the color that you like as in cases like this there is no screen accurate color, only peoples perceptions of accuracy. ANy one of the above pants colors is screen accurate since that's what you see on the screen.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:29 pm

The Mechanic is correct about his last statement.
And I strongly believe that the fact that Platon found all these colours is a great achievement. Let's just choose wisely.

Sorry for insisting on this matter but here's an other photo which might help or even confuse more.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:34 pm

Wow, now we can add "chocolate brown" to the mix. Man they look dark in that picture.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:49 pm

PETER- "the pants in ROLA came straight from Nathan and Bermans stock of army costumes and were Officers Pinks.However, in the later films, having been destroyed, there was no stock.New stock was made."

PLATON wrote:That's not correct because officers pinks have on-seam pockets and are pleatless as opposed to Raiders which had sloping pockets and pleats.

I think that statement quoting Peter is saying that Nathan & Berman made costume officers pinks for other movies and had them in stock. That is quite easy to believe.

It also may mean that if you find the original movie(s) made prior to Raiders that N&B made the costumes for, you will have a dead ringer for the pants. Who knows? If the movie was not that well-known, you may be able to find these pants on some prop sites selling very cheaply - and you would have identical screen accurate Raiders pants.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:50 pm

Hmm... I wonder which colour looks grey when worn with the jacket and then looks dark taupe\brown without the jacket. In this aspect the KOTCS pants in the behind the scenes photos look very similar.

Maybe in the end 8102 or something similar might be the solution. Platon, can you please let us know if the 8102 looks grey when shot with the jacket and the shirt, all together and if it looks dark when shot only with the shirt? Just put the sample over the shirt under partial sunlight. The same procedure with the jacket.

Thanks
Indygr

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:45 am

The 8102 is a deep brown that reminds me more of a Cadbury's chocolate than any of the pants I've seen in these movies. Strangely it seems to match the color of the piece of fabric in 138 of that book about the making of Indy films. My guess is that they used such color to shoot the palace scene in ToD as he was wearing a brown tweed jacket and the latter looked better with brown pants instead of taupe/gray. Of course they must have distressed it somehow because the color looked faded.

I don't know.

The bottom line is I can supply any color you like from white to black and all in between, inlcuded yellow, khaki, tan, beige, olive green, green and so on.

Since I do not store the fabrics, I cannot serve specific requests on color (unless of course one is willing to pay huge amounts of dough that will allow me to get single pieces from the factory). The factory normally doesn't do small quantities. They wouldn't bother. I had to beg. So, it's already tough to get small quantities as it is.

The bottom line is that you guys have to help me choose the colors, or trust my judgement on which colors are correct.

The 8101 IS EXACTLY THE SAME with the MBA pants I own. I checked with nearly every possible source for this color. I have many samples here from many vendors. This fabric is THE color and also the BEST quality. I have received samples of much inferior quality and color that was off.

So I am not spending any more time on deciding about the Raiders pants. It's done.

The question is the LC/KOTCS pants. My choice is the 8135 which is the same I was using previously for the Paris pants. Those who bought it can tell you their comments. The quality and weight is excellent, the color has the 'pink' hue and it's the one closest to what Officers pinks color is perceived to be.

My next choice for KOTCS would be the 8136. It looks GREAT too. Unfortunately, I don't think that the KOTCS pants will 'move' so much so I am having doubts about what quantity I should order, or even if it is worth it to offer the KOTCS pants at all.

Regards,
Platon

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:19 am

What about the sample below 8136. Does it look only brown or it changes shade towards taupe/grey?

Indygr

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:39 am

The sample below 8136 is green. Surprised?
I know, it looks brown in the photo and resembles the KOTCS color in some pics.

But forget about it, it's green.

NH vs Wested pants

Is NH pants exactly the same color as Wested pants?

NH vs Wested pants

http://www.indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?t=32123