Baron Hats

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:30 pm

Not only that, but the claim is still being put out that Baron's had to reshape all the hats for CS, not just the first few samples.

I have a letter from Bernie that is his response to Mark. It was never posted on TFC, I don't think. I of course, cannot post it as it was not meant for me, but for Mark. But, in that letter, Bernie laid out to Mark exactly what Mark did, in Bernie's presence, as no hats were ever left at Barons. They left with Bernie. This was early on in the development stage. I had been sent photos from TLC to use as a model to do the creases. Creases pop out in shipment. Mark put them back in, and Bernie may have had him push them back a bit farther on the sides. Once Bernie left with the 5 or 6 hats to N.M. Bernie learned to recrease the hats himself, out of neccessity. Creases pop out in action scenes. The remaining 30 hats were sent directly to Western Costume, for the liner color change and what Bernie referred to as aging. They were then shipped directly to Hawaii, and Bernie tweaked any creases that had popped out in transit.

I don't have any hard feelings towards Mark, and I hope this will eventually die down. He was proud to have been involved in a small way with the new Indy fedora. Who would not be? He has never apologized to me or Marc, and I don't expect one. But, I sure would have, if I had been in his shoes. Mark and I are different human beings.

Personally I resent the "kitchen sink" hatter remark. This was originally used as a "cut" towards me, last year by one of my detractors. It is alive and well it seems, and still being bantered about. It means much more than a small hatter folks, as you probably surmised.

The old hatters basically used a pot of boiling water to steam their hats, and unless you were a factory or a big hatter, this technique was used for decades by many fine hatters. The kitchen sink reference was not referring to these old hatters, but to a new one-me. A cut down. An insult.

Any hatter that takes credit for another's work cannot be defended. Only an idiot would try and do so. That's the cold hard truth of the matter. But, I hold no grudges. I am not like that. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:48 pm

It's good to see you finally letting go of the bitterness toward Baron hats, though, and wishing him well like that. A definite step up

I must admit, both Marc and I were really tee'd off when we read the Parade article. We were still making the hats!!!!

But, I don't say mad forever. Unhealthy to do so. I figure Mark was so disapointed not to get the gig that he was not quite himself during this period. We are all human, with the emotions, etc.

Basically when I read in the Production Notes, the booklet that came with the press package, my name, and Adventurebilt, I knew then, there would be no more confusion on who made the CS fedora. And of course, that helped greatly in me getting over my anger. Words do matter.

Fedora

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:48 pm

Aeris_Canon wrote:
The old hatters basically used a pot of boiling water to steam their hats, and unless you were a factory or a big hatter, this technique was used for decades by many fine hatters. The kitchen sink reference was not referring to these old hatters, but to a new one-me. A cut down. An insult.
Actually, it was a term I'd heard mentioned elsewhere. I had no idea somebody used it to describe you specifically when you started making hats a couple years ago. The term here was in reference to EXACTLY what you described above in your own words.

"The old hatters basically used a pot of boiling water to steam their hats, and unless you were a factory or a big hatter, this technique was used for decades by many fine hatters".

It's good to see you finally letting go of the bitterness toward Baron hats, though, and wishing him well like that. A definite step up. And it's good to have the air cleared about Baron's role in it all. No, they didn't make the hats. But Bernie did go to them at some point, even if for reshaping. A far cry from the claim "made the hats", to be sure.

a veritable astronomical unit of distance from making the hats as far as i'm concerned. as far as "recreasing" the hats goes, why would you take credit for that? if the creases pop out, then i push them back in with my right index finger....its not rocket science (which i can go into extensive detail btw

).

perhaps there was more to it than getting the bash back, i don't know...but how much more can there be?....i had to buy some distilled water and a spray bottle and put the creases back in that adventurebilt put in originally....i want my name in the credits.....

mtechthang · Post by **mtechthang** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Fedora wrote:I must admit, both Marc and I were really tee'd off when we read the Parade article. We were still making the hats!!!!

But, I don't say mad forever. Unhealthy to do so. I figure Mark was so disapointed not to get the gig that he was not quite himself during this period. We are all human, with the emotions, etc.

Fedora- Great to see you are past the minor illness and have dug out of the workload - well, at least enough to poke your head up for a moment!! I hope that some of those who seem to retain such strong feeling toward Mark can read your comments and move on as well. Like I said elsewhere, I did consider ordering a hat from Mark at one point but I was so impressed by yours and Marc's responses (also Art's and Jimmy's) AND by better or equal prices and product that I'd just rather deal with you guys. Take care.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:40 pm

In "The Complete Making Of" book, Bernie Pollack says the first samples he got from AB were almost what he wanted, so he took them to a hat shop in Burbank (he doesn't name Baron's specifically) and had slightly different looks creased into each sample, from which he chose the one that best complemented Harrison's features. If he is that discriminating, he probably would have taught himself how to replicate the exact look he wanted right on the set. So any claim Baron's might have to creating the CS hat would be limited to a minor tweaking job.

Jack

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:40 pm

To clarify AGAIN. The issue is not a defense of Baron's but trying to find out where he made the claim "Made the hats" to begin with. Where IS that? Does anyone have a copy of the Parade article archived?

you're right AC. i am basing my opinion of Baron's primarily from information that i was privy to second hand. not very fair of me but the bottom line is that this issue rubbed some people the wrong way. these people i have the utmost respect for so in that case, i would automatically be on their side of the line drawn in the sand....until i get educated differently of course.

strider did see all of the Baron's hoopla and so did some other folks. this included the magazine article, interview, and info that was on the Baron's website. like you, i would truly like to have seen all that so i can confirm my opinion....which of course is only opinion.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:05 pm

This was originally posted by 3thoubucks:

[img][img][img]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd12 ... Barons.jpg[/img][/img]

Jack[/img]

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:04 pm

Well, that certainly doesn't read as Mark directly taking credit for the hats, but it certainly was implied. His little quote about Shia and the hat certainly makes it sound as though he was directly involved in the film. All that rubish aside, the literature on the Baron Redux webpage is also worded in a tricky way. If I didn't know that the hats were ABs, I would think that Baron Hats made the Crsytal Skull hats. These sort of busniess practices really bother me...and not just in hats. It is great that Steve has forgiven. But I cannot buy a hat from someone like that.

i.e. A few weeks ago my cellular phone died. I took it to a Sprint service center and was told that my phone could not be fixed or replaced (even though I have insurance on the phone) becuase there was water damage. I was obviously surprised because I have never dropped my phone in water. I argued the point but it was in vain because Sprint simply wanted me to throw more money at them. So, when my contract is up, I am changing service providers. Same deal with Baron. I hope I wasn't longwinded for nothing; did I get my point across?

Dave

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:11 pm

Aeris_Canon wrote:
His little quote about Shia and the hat certainly makes it sound as though he was directly involved in the film.
His little quote might have been in bounds regarding a question about Shia's hat. Who made Shia's hat for the film? If it was Baron's, his little quote is fitting and the answer is being given (at the time of this interview when things were still under wraps, "not" given) by the right party on that subject.

Thank you for posting this, Eazybox.

I do not see a direct quote of Mark claiming to have made Indy's hat in this segment; but a reference to the kind of hat Shia might be wearing in the film. Currently, Baron's is taking credit for Shia's hat so the question seems to be fitting here in asking Baron's about what kind of hat Shia is wearing. "That's a closely guarded secret" indicates that Mark was under obligation not to mention ANYthing about the wardrobe at the time. But the question and answer revolve around SHIA'S HAT in KOTCS.

Next is a reference to the "Cliffhanger", one of Baron's "Indy inspired" hats for years. (That is a plug for the "Cliffhanger" - most likely something the author kicked in there as a "thanks for the interview").

This still does not seem to quote Mark as making any claims about the KOTCS fedora. The elements surrounding the conversation have to do with KOTCS but the specific issue seems to be Shia's hat, not Indy's fedora.

I am going by what I am reading in print there, not what I think I'm supposed to be reading.

Was anyone aware of Baron's involvement with Shia's hat at the time this article came out? Bernie, would you care to hop on and 'splain directly?
If Baron's did not make Shia's hat then this whole article is "puff"; but if they did, it seems the gun was jumped by many who may not have been aware of the Shia hat at all at the time.

This article is not a claim by Baron's of having made Indy's hat in the film.

Does anyone have the video footage from Reelzamajig?

I hope someone will be able to provide the video, but I do recall an exact quote by Mark from it: "I worked on all the hats ... I worked on all of Harrison's hats here, 6, 7 months ago."

Jack

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:00 am

This still does not seem to quote Mark as making any claims about the KOTCS fedora.

If that's what you're waiting for, AC, you're not going to find it. We don't have a direct video or a direct quote of Mark saying he made the hats. All we have are people parroting that lie for him, and him making statements that imply but don't specifically state that he did.

I frankly don't understand why on earth it matters to you though. If we were trying to get this prosecuted in a court of law, yes, it would matter if there was a direct quote. But this isn't a court of law and we're not lawyers (or at least, most of us aren't). If people are out there saying that Mark made the hats and he's not doing anything to set the story straight, it's as good as lying. And that's not even counting all the times he's made statements hinting that he did it.

I think you're just going to have to accept the fact that "yes" he did attempt to mislead the world and "No" you're not going to catch him at it. He's way too smart for that. :junior: -M

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:19 am

eazybox wrote:I hope someone will be able to provide the video, but I do recall an exact quote by Mark from it: "I worked on all the hats ... I worked on all of Harrison's hats here, 6, 7 months ago."

Jack

I saw the video. He was being interviewed by the pretty girl and he looked dead at the camera and said he made all the hats for Harrison Ford for the new movie. He wasn't misquoted. He was on camera and said it himself. He flat out lied.

Why would he do such a thing? As far as every thing that I have heard, the movie production company really wanted him to get the contract for convenience sake as he was right there near the studio. They gave him every opportunity. He couldn't get the job done. Maybe he was so upset at not getting the contract, that he couldn't admit that he didn't make them. He wanted to be the one that made them, so he said he did. Did he think he could say that and no one would notice?

I can't believe that anyone with an IQ over 3, that saw the video, would ever try to defend him in any way, shape, or form.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:30 pm

I don't recall ever hearing him actually say the words, "I made the hats," but he didn't exactly go out of his way to dissuade others from coming to that conclusion. "I WORKED ON all the hats" makes it very easy for people to jump to the wrong conclusion, and gives one a nice avenue for denial in case questions should arise later on-- one can then point out, "I never said I made the hats-- I said I WORKED on them. Man, was I ever FURIOUS when I saw those misquotes!"

Jack

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:26 pm

"I WORKED ON all the hats"

by the same premis, i can say that i've worked with steve at AB, ron at hatsdirect, todd at todd's costumes, and the freak'n queen at herbert johnson/swaine addeny brigg

....i've worked on all their hats too.....pretty nice resume eh?

perhaps mark was severly misquoted. but if that were the case, there should have been some follow up on his end to set the matter straight. i think that part of the puzzle is where the real issue lyes.

mtechthang · Post by **mtechthang** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:58 pm

Indiana G- Good points all. I think more and more one has to wonder at the silence- and thus at the past ambiguities from Mark (as Mulceber and bufflehead Jones have stated).

But right now, I'm feeling my comments earlier were too kind - I went to the site for Baron's because I wanted to believe things might be different.

On the main page is a reference to a hat called the "CLIFFHANGER REDUX. Now, knowing that their Indy hat is called the "Cliffhanger" I was wondering - a redux? Here is an excerpt of the text: (some of you need to sit down and read ahead calmly):
Baron Hats is proud to have made Harrison's fedora for "Temple of Doom', (which we also offer as a reproduction, called "The Cliffhanger"), along with having made the already much talked about cap that Shia wears in his role as "Mutt Williams" in "Crystal Skull", (we offer a reproduction of that cap as well, which we call the "Rebel Sidekick"), and we are equally as proud to have done additional work on Harrison's newest Fedora for "Crystal Skull". (Emphasis added)

Mulceber's claim, which is also what I believed till moments ago, is that Mark is too slick to make a direct claim. But if the text said, "work on" that would be much less a direct claim to the product itself. It says "work for" and that implies rather directly creation does it not?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:06 pm

eazybox wrote:I don't recall ever hearing him actually say the words, "I made the hats," but he didn't exactly go out of his way to dissuade others from coming to that conclusion. "I WORKED ON all the hats" makes it very easy for people to jump to the wrong conclusion, and gives one a nice avenue for denial in case questions should arise later on-- one can then point out, "I never said I made the hats-- I said I WORKED on them. Man, was I ever FURIOUS when I saw those misquotes!"

Jack

If everything you say is true, that would make him a big weasel that I wouldn't buy anything from. The Lao Che of hatters. He was living in the limelight and taking credit for a job he didn't do. He knew exactly why he had drawn the tv cameras to him for an interview.

He bought Baron Hats from Eddy Baron in 1995. Baron Hats had built a reputation for making hats for the movie industry. The movie production company really wanted to do business with him for Indy IV for convenience sake. It was so easy to slide by the hat shop so close to the Hollywood studio. They gave him a month to come up with an acceptable prototype, and he couldn't do it.

The insiders in the movie industry know who made the hats in the KotCS. They also know what Mark Mejia said in magazine, newspaper, and tv interviews. By taking credit for someone else's work on possibly the most famous hat in movie history, I wonder what kind of damage he has done to his business in dealing with the movie industry. They always say, "what goes around, comes around".

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:18 pm

Well, if you are waiting to see the video, don't hold your breath. I know I am not that good with computers, but I have searched for the video. I think it has been totally removed and is no longer available. It may have to do with the people that did the interviews now feeling that they had been mislead. To avoid any further embarrassment to themselves, they have removed the video. I know I can't find it. But, I saw it. I know the impression it left on me. It wasn't a pretty picture.

I saw it and it made me want to barf. It is pointless for me to argue about it.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:23 pm

But if the text said, "work on" that would be much less a direct claim to the product itself. It says "work for" and that implies rather directly creation does it not?

It implies direct creation, but you're never going to catch him in a direct quote, like I said. He did indeed "work on" the hats - he fixed some of the creases which had popped out in transit from Mississippi to California.

@Aeris_Canon - you can take it from me: in the video, Mark never specifically said he made the hats, but he said he worked on them, and then the company that was producing the video claimed he made the hats. Unfortunately AC, that's as good as you're gonna get - after COW members wrote angry letters to the company telling them to check their facts, they removed the video. It doesn't exist anymore, unless some enterprising COW member has it taped from when it was on TV. :junior: -M

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:25 pm

Okay, Lao Che!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:26 pm

Who made Mutt's hats for KOTCS?

We don't know. I would assume Barons, since they flat-out made the claim, as opposed to equivocating like they did with regard to Indy's hat. :junior: -M

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:29 pm

Aeris_Canon wrote: I try to find detail behind fiction, Docta Jones...

Apparently, you didn't even see it. That would be a good place to start, before you start typing. The deal was for the Crystal Skull fedora, Lao Che! Find that video before "anything goes"!

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:30 pm

The quote from the Reelz video was exact as I wrote it down to include in an email I wrote at the time I saw it.

Mark allowed the situation to happen more than once, with different media outlets. After the Parade fiasco, he must have been well aware of the misinterpretation that could take place and should have been alert to catch any possible misquotes before they happened.

This is rather a dead issue now, though, and I think many of us just wish it would go away-- we all know that AB made the hats and that Baron's reshaped some of them, and we all have our opinions about Mark Mejia. Maybe as Steve hints, we should let it go and move on to happier top9ics.

Jack

mtechthang · Post by **mtechthang** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:11 pm

eazybox wrote:Mark allowed the situation to happen more than once, with different media outlets.

Yup. But my point, and the one others have stated above, was he is still doing that- himself- on his web-site- today.

eazybox wrote:This is rather a dead issue now, though, and I think many of us just wish it would go away-- we all know that AB made the hats and that Baron's reshaped some of them, and we all have our opinions about Mark Mejia.

It is true that COW members probably know (as do FL and/or FC members). But a dead issue? Many folks don't know and are in the market for a hat- are willing to pay the $400 (or $498 or that plus $90 for aging). Though I don't take it personally at all, I wish they'd send their money to Steve or Marc than get a "Redux" - irrespective of anything re: Mark or Baron's, they think they are getting a "real Indy hat" when they aren't. (Of course, caveat emptor as always and there are folks buying "authentic Indy" hats made of wool or leather!

)

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:24 pm

Who made Mutt's hats for KOTCS?

I DID!!!! i was at the restaurant where they shot the sit down scene with shia and ford. shia's hat was on the table and i noticed that the silver band was resting on the crown stand instead of the beak. i pushed the band back down to where it should be resting......SOMEONE INTERVIEW ME!!!!

btw...i saw the cliffhanger redux....nice looking hat, but it looks exactly like my fed 3 after i put her on mr. kettle and fell asleep for an hour

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:10 pm

If you guys could have seen what I sent in when Bernie asked for a LC style creased hat, you would understand what sent him scurring to Barons.

Mostly a Raders fedora as I took liberties in finding the most Raiders looking fedora in TLC and sent him that. No doubt we made his job harder, at least very early on. He then sent me a pic, a couple in fact, of the LC creases he wanted. I put those in a sample hat, and mailed it off. I assume it was Barons who pushed the creases back to 5 inches on the sides at Bernie's direction. Bernie knew what he wanted, creasewise, and as far as I am concerned, Mark did as he was told. Just like I did with Bernie. He was the boss. Once Bernie settled on the creases, he sent me the hat fitted to Ford, with the crease job he wanted. I used it as a 3 D model to crease the other hats. But, really, it was not very different from what I had sent in already. I had the front crease pushed back to 4, and he moved it to 5. And I had the very top of the crease not pinched as much as they pinched it. But, while watching the film, I saw Indy's fedora with the shorter crease, the way I had originally did it. Creases move, its the nature of felt hats, used in action movies.

I really personally don't want Mark trashed here. As I said, we all have our faults. Me included. My major fault is that my fingers type faster than my brains works. Thank goodness for the edit function on most boards.

I guess what really upset me awhile back when all of the stories were on the net about who made the hats, is that I knew what Barons had done with my hats. Bernie always told me every detail as it was going on in regards, to this hat. I spent alot of time on the phone with Bernie. If I was not around, or away from the phone, I would get chewed out, in a nice way when I returned his call. He says to me, "Dude, get a cell phone!!!"

Looking backwards now, it was one of the most exciting times of my life, and Marc's too. But at the time this was going on, we were worn out, totally involved in pleasing Bernie, and really did not have the time to enjoy anything! Marc and I would talk almost daily, and the conversation always started off, with, "can you believe we are making the new film hats?"

Hopefully with the passage of time this Barons event will be less thought of, and forgotten. For the record, I think Barons supplied Mutts hat, and I know he had some felt hats on Ford's standins. I was told as much by a stunt man who worked on the film. He saw the Baron name on a hat worn at the train scenes, by Ford's standin. The big surprise to me was my gray hat had been initially rejected, with Bernie saying he would just pick one up somewhere. Then he calls me to tell me he used it!!! And needed another as a backup as that portion of the film was not completed. They had to go back. Apparently, they never went back. Or did some of those gray hat scenes in CA. on a set. May have been the cafe scene, with the hat sitting on the table. Dunno. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:38 pm

Yes they do. I'm still waiting on your word about a piece of information I asked you for a while back. (Other topic. I'll PM you if you forgot.) Still don't have that.

Oops, I have no recollection Aeris. Yes, pm me on the matter. Thanks. Fedora

mtechthang · Post by **mtechthang** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:57 pm

Fedora wrote:Looking backwards now, it was one of the most exciting times of my life, and Marc's too. But at the time this was going on, we were worn out, totally involved in pleasing Bernie, and really did not have the time to enjoy anything! Marc and I would talk almost daily, and the conversation always started off, with, "can you believe we are making the new film hats?"

Hopefully with the passage of time this Barons event will be less thought of, and forgotten.

Fedroa (and list)
Then please accept my apologies for my part in the postings. I'm very glad you are getting some time to enjoy/reminisce on the deserved accomplishment of being chosen for the hats in KotCS (and as a favorite in the hearts of COW members!:notworthy: ). I think your position is pretty clear that you are ok with the way things are on Baron's web-site and if you are ok with it then I am probably just reading it wrong.

It is just my opinion but I think for us to constantly carp on this issue, especially after the comments above, would seem to take away from your request to move forward and let you enjoy your well earned success. Your comments only reinforce my judgment of your character as a fellow Southerner. Well said, Fedora!

LNBright · Post by **LNBright** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:23 pm

Speaking of, the "Complete Making of...."

I just picked this up, and found the sidebar on page 280.......

And they spelled "Delk" WRONG!!!! It says Steven DELL instead of DELK!!!

However, I was still very tickled to find the "hatter from Mississippi" in the book....

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:48 pm

Steve, I think we can all applaud your willingness to forgive and forget. There's an old Indian saying, "Never judge a man until you've walked in his moccasins." Who knows what any of us might have done had we been in Mark's shoes-- watching the biggest opportunity of his life slip through his fingers, and then having to accept a very minor and uncredited role in the job he lost. What he did may not have been right, but it certainly was human.

Jack

mtechthang · Post by **mtechthang** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:21 pm

eazybox wrote:Who knows what any of us might have done had we been in Mark's shoes

Jack/eazybox- good points! Let's let Bernie and the other costumers be the judges. They know the work and whether they benefit from it. Kudos to Steve/Fedora!! $\:D/$ $\:D/$ $\:D/$

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:52 am

I heard from Baron Hats, they called me. It seems my email was not working for them so after several attempts they called my cell about The Lover fedora. Just goes to show one should never make assumptions! The gentleman was very nice and regardless of the way they handled the Indy situation I'm ordering my summer rose Lover fedora. If Steve can forgive them then why not? I was never the type to hold a grudge; my anger is swift, hot but not lasting...And Baron makes a good hat. I can't say just because he lied about the movie hats that I'm never going to purchase a hat there. That's too extreme. Forgive, forget and move on, we are adults after all. And we realize how foolish it was for Baron's to lie, they couldn't possibly get away with it and they're probably feeling the heat from it. So I say drop it and move along...

I will post pics of my Lover when it arrives...

Baron Hats

Asking for correction but it seems rather clear.