Whipmakers out there, amateur or professional, could I ask a question or two of you? I now have my leather, plaiting soap, steel handle, fall etc ready to go and am about to start cutting out for a 12 plait roo bullwhip. It's been 23 years since I made a whip, so I need a refresher course.
1) for a 10' bullwhip, how long should the roo strands be, before being stretched, roughly speaking. I was thinking of aiming at strands about 17' long, before stretching, for the overlay. Is that too long? I always tended to come up short before, and want to avoid this if I can.
Also, for the plaited bellies, I guess the proportion is about the same, although the unplaited strands should be left long at the ends to make up the core of the whip after the plaiting stops, so maybe these should be left a little longer.
2) what is the best, easiest reference source for learning how to tie the Indy 4 style knots? I have done the traditional DM style knots before and would like to try the Jacka style knots this time.
Hope this info has not already been exhaustively covered here but I looked and couldn't find it. If anyone can help out I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
Whipmaking - some basic questions
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Canuck Digger
- Professor of Archaeology
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JMObi,
While I am not in the same league as other whipmaker here, maybe I can get the ball going and if anyone has something else they want to share, then they can just go ahead and add to this.
The length of the strands is also a function of the width of the strands (of course). So if your strands are very narrow, then they will go around the whip more often than if they were wider, because they cover less at every pass, which in turn mean they would need to be longer than 1 1/2 times the length of the whip. The rule of thumb I follow is tho have the total width of your set (belly or overlay, it doesn't matter), be 1 1/2 times the circumference of what you want to cover. So let's say you had something 28 mm in circumference to cover (I know it's pretty big, but I'm going with the butt foundation on a whip I'm making right now, so at least the proportions will be good...), so 28mm around comes out to something around 96 mm. So 96mm X 1.5= 144mm. This means that your combined width should be around 144 mm wide (stretched and skived). So 144mm divided by 12 would be 12 mm per strand. Now this is just in my example using the butt foundation as a guide. But in real terms, I would usually start my overlay with strands around 9mm and finish with strands around 5-6 mm wide. So 17 feet for a 10 foot overlay should be fine, especially if that is before stretching!
Keep in mind these numbers depend on the width of what you need to cover, the rate of the taper and they represent the strands once they have been stretched and skived. So depending on the amount of stretch left in your hide, your skills at cutting the hide and being able to compensate for the stretching that will be done later, you may want to cut them a bit wider at first. Also, cutting out a 10 foot 12 plait overlay out of one hide along with the two bellies and laces for the covering knots and perhaps a wrist loop, is asking a lot out of a single 'roo. You may want to have another one on standby just in case, since you said you were a bit rusty... Because as you cut wider, you are also reducing the amount of leather in the hide left to cut long strands... It's all a ballancing act, the object of which is to find the sweet spot for every hide and every whip.
As for the length of the belly strands, that depends on how long you intend to have them run. They still need to be about 1 1/2 times the width of the core and 1 1/2 times the length of the core to plait over, but that doesn't include the length leftover for the second part of that belly where the strands run loose... If you are going to make a 12 plait and intend to start dropping strands around the half-way mark, as many do, then you will have strands being added to the core as you plait further and further, so the core strands from the second belly needn't run the entire length of the whip, since new ones will be added along the way. I try to leave at least 2 feet above and beyond what I need, because I like to have a long anchor for the dropped strands and if I ever break a strand while plaiting, then I have long ones in the core ready to be brought up to the surface to replace a broken one. I find it easier to add a strand in the core then to add a strand to the overlay. It's nothing to undo a bit of the overlay, drop the broken strand into the core and bring up another strand from the core up to the overlay. But splicing in a new strand for the overlay means you need to undo at least a foot, make the splice, plait over it for a few inches until it is good and secure, then drop the old strand and have enough left for it to be properly secured in the core, while at the same time bringing the spliced strand to the overlay. It's just a preferance and I'm sure many will say it's overkill. It may well be, but it's served me well so far.
So to recap; 1.5 X the width, 1.5 X the length (plus enough to carry on the taper and anchor the dropped strands... 2 feet works for me). If all you had to do was to have enough length after dropping a strand from the overlay to anchor it, then 6-8 inches might do the trick, but that would mean that your entire core would be made up from the leftover strands from the second belly... I guess that might work too, but I prefer to work the other way. I know there are other equations for this calculation, but this one is petty simple and does the trick alright. It'll be up to you to see what works best for you though.
So on a 10 footer, your first belly might run to 38" and your second belly to 5 feet +/-... so do the math and you should be in the ballpark. Of course this also depends on how far you want the weight to be carried down the thong... So many choices...
Good luck,
Franco
While I am not in the same league as other whipmaker here, maybe I can get the ball going and if anyone has something else they want to share, then they can just go ahead and add to this.
The length of the strands is also a function of the width of the strands (of course). So if your strands are very narrow, then they will go around the whip more often than if they were wider, because they cover less at every pass, which in turn mean they would need to be longer than 1 1/2 times the length of the whip. The rule of thumb I follow is tho have the total width of your set (belly or overlay, it doesn't matter), be 1 1/2 times the circumference of what you want to cover. So let's say you had something 28 mm in circumference to cover (I know it's pretty big, but I'm going with the butt foundation on a whip I'm making right now, so at least the proportions will be good...), so 28mm around comes out to something around 96 mm. So 96mm X 1.5= 144mm. This means that your combined width should be around 144 mm wide (stretched and skived). So 144mm divided by 12 would be 12 mm per strand. Now this is just in my example using the butt foundation as a guide. But in real terms, I would usually start my overlay with strands around 9mm and finish with strands around 5-6 mm wide. So 17 feet for a 10 foot overlay should be fine, especially if that is before stretching!
Keep in mind these numbers depend on the width of what you need to cover, the rate of the taper and they represent the strands once they have been stretched and skived. So depending on the amount of stretch left in your hide, your skills at cutting the hide and being able to compensate for the stretching that will be done later, you may want to cut them a bit wider at first. Also, cutting out a 10 foot 12 plait overlay out of one hide along with the two bellies and laces for the covering knots and perhaps a wrist loop, is asking a lot out of a single 'roo. You may want to have another one on standby just in case, since you said you were a bit rusty... Because as you cut wider, you are also reducing the amount of leather in the hide left to cut long strands... It's all a ballancing act, the object of which is to find the sweet spot for every hide and every whip.
As for the length of the belly strands, that depends on how long you intend to have them run. They still need to be about 1 1/2 times the width of the core and 1 1/2 times the length of the core to plait over, but that doesn't include the length leftover for the second part of that belly where the strands run loose... If you are going to make a 12 plait and intend to start dropping strands around the half-way mark, as many do, then you will have strands being added to the core as you plait further and further, so the core strands from the second belly needn't run the entire length of the whip, since new ones will be added along the way. I try to leave at least 2 feet above and beyond what I need, because I like to have a long anchor for the dropped strands and if I ever break a strand while plaiting, then I have long ones in the core ready to be brought up to the surface to replace a broken one. I find it easier to add a strand in the core then to add a strand to the overlay. It's nothing to undo a bit of the overlay, drop the broken strand into the core and bring up another strand from the core up to the overlay. But splicing in a new strand for the overlay means you need to undo at least a foot, make the splice, plait over it for a few inches until it is good and secure, then drop the old strand and have enough left for it to be properly secured in the core, while at the same time bringing the spliced strand to the overlay. It's just a preferance and I'm sure many will say it's overkill. It may well be, but it's served me well so far.
So to recap; 1.5 X the width, 1.5 X the length (plus enough to carry on the taper and anchor the dropped strands... 2 feet works for me). If all you had to do was to have enough length after dropping a strand from the overlay to anchor it, then 6-8 inches might do the trick, but that would mean that your entire core would be made up from the leftover strands from the second belly... I guess that might work too, but I prefer to work the other way. I know there are other equations for this calculation, but this one is petty simple and does the trick alright. It'll be up to you to see what works best for you though.
So on a 10 footer, your first belly might run to 38" and your second belly to 5 feet +/-... so do the math and you should be in the ballpark. Of course this also depends on how far you want the weight to be carried down the thong... So many choices...
Good luck,
Franco
Last edited by Canuck Digger on Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks so much Franco, that is a great response and really helpful to me. I hadn't realised that differing number of strands - eg. 8 or 12 plait affected length of the sets needed. That is very important. All my old whips were 8 plait.
Here are some more questions I thought of, can anyone help with these?
1) how do whipmakers achieve the nice smooth taper in the handle?
2) what do whipmakers have as core in the point/last foot of braiding of an Indy bullwhip? Is it the roo strands that were dropped further back? I used to continue a thin piece of the top bolster, but had troubles achieving a nice round braid at the point.
3) does someone know of a book that teaches how to tie the Indy 4 style TH knots that Terry Jacka uses?
Here are some more questions I thought of, can anyone help with these?
1) how do whipmakers achieve the nice smooth taper in the handle?
2) what do whipmakers have as core in the point/last foot of braiding of an Indy bullwhip? Is it the roo strands that were dropped further back? I used to continue a thin piece of the top bolster, but had troubles achieving a nice round braid at the point.
3) does someone know of a book that teaches how to tie the Indy 4 style TH knots that Terry Jacka uses?
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Canuck Digger
- Professor of Archaeology
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:24 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Well the length of a 12 plait set is different because if you want to end let's say with a 6 strand point, that means you are going to have the drop 6 strands along the way. The strands you drop are normally used as core strands past the 2nd belly. How long you choose to make these is up to you and how you want your whip to look like and behave... Of course you don't HAVE to drop ANY strands at all, you could choose to taper all of them right to the tip, but that is very hard to do well, and it also makes for very weak strands (because they're too narrow) at the tip which is under a lot of stress, so care should be taken to make the tip as strong as can be. How and when you drop strands is really a matter of prefference, but most will start dropping strands around the halfway mark and end with 6 or in some cases 8 strands at the tip of the whip.
Taper in the handle has to do with how you stagger your different layers of leather in the handle. I personally grind about a inch at the tip of the spike to allow for the thickness of the wear leather at the tip and the begining of the 1st belly plaiting, which is cut so it starts as a keeper (so only two layers of leather because it isn't plaited over the handle). My first bolster starts near the tip of the handle, not at the base. So by the time I get to the 2nd belly, I only have 4 layers of leather over the spike: there is the core which runs the whole length of the handle, and the keeper of the first belly. Since the 1st bolster doesn't run over much of the handle it doesn't really contribute to the thickness of the handle; it sort of evens out the tapering of the tip of the spike. I plait the 2nd belly starting from the base of the handle with a keeper tied/tacked around the butt foundation, though some will only start the plaiting closer to the tip of the handle, which would create a change in profile at that point of the handle-this is where tapering handles come in. So I had 4 layers and I now added 4 more with the second belly. At an average of 1mm per layer, we now have 8mm of leather over the spike which is 9mm, for a total width of around 17mm with a pretty straight handle. If the leather is too thick, then the next step is where you would also get a bit more of that tapered profile; I will sometimes skive (or thin down) the bolster as it gets close to the base of the handle. I skive it to a trtansparent edge so there are no bumps. Then the overlay goes over all this. I use artificial sinew to bind the layers so this adds a little bit of thickness, but very very little and because it is wrapped around, you can control where you put more of it very easily. This might contribute a bit to the taper of the handle too. So 17mm (by the 2nd belly) + 2mm for the 2nd bolster + 4mm for the overlay= 23mm +/-. Like I said this is just a very rough guideline. One could also add a short filler that might start toward the end of the handle and extend into the first part of the whip for a fuller thong... Just another example of how things can be moved around quite a bit by the whipmaker.
The point has a core of strands dropped from the overlay. I usually have about 4 strands, but like I said, that depends on the thickenss of the leather how big do you wish to make the point... Sometimes a very narrow bit of bolster is still there too. Just try to not stack the strands as a pile of thin rectangular laces, because this will make them bend more easily in one direction and will naturally affect how the whip falls and how accurate it is. Doing this is easier when the strands are kept wide, because they will bend along their length more readily when wide then when they are very narrow. So by rounding the core strands a bit they will form a compact and dense core when plaited over and later rolled.
Hope this helps.
Franco
Taper in the handle has to do with how you stagger your different layers of leather in the handle. I personally grind about a inch at the tip of the spike to allow for the thickness of the wear leather at the tip and the begining of the 1st belly plaiting, which is cut so it starts as a keeper (so only two layers of leather because it isn't plaited over the handle). My first bolster starts near the tip of the handle, not at the base. So by the time I get to the 2nd belly, I only have 4 layers of leather over the spike: there is the core which runs the whole length of the handle, and the keeper of the first belly. Since the 1st bolster doesn't run over much of the handle it doesn't really contribute to the thickness of the handle; it sort of evens out the tapering of the tip of the spike. I plait the 2nd belly starting from the base of the handle with a keeper tied/tacked around the butt foundation, though some will only start the plaiting closer to the tip of the handle, which would create a change in profile at that point of the handle-this is where tapering handles come in. So I had 4 layers and I now added 4 more with the second belly. At an average of 1mm per layer, we now have 8mm of leather over the spike which is 9mm, for a total width of around 17mm with a pretty straight handle. If the leather is too thick, then the next step is where you would also get a bit more of that tapered profile; I will sometimes skive (or thin down) the bolster as it gets close to the base of the handle. I skive it to a trtansparent edge so there are no bumps. Then the overlay goes over all this. I use artificial sinew to bind the layers so this adds a little bit of thickness, but very very little and because it is wrapped around, you can control where you put more of it very easily. This might contribute a bit to the taper of the handle too. So 17mm (by the 2nd belly) + 2mm for the 2nd bolster + 4mm for the overlay= 23mm +/-. Like I said this is just a very rough guideline. One could also add a short filler that might start toward the end of the handle and extend into the first part of the whip for a fuller thong... Just another example of how things can be moved around quite a bit by the whipmaker.
The point has a core of strands dropped from the overlay. I usually have about 4 strands, but like I said, that depends on the thickenss of the leather how big do you wish to make the point... Sometimes a very narrow bit of bolster is still there too. Just try to not stack the strands as a pile of thin rectangular laces, because this will make them bend more easily in one direction and will naturally affect how the whip falls and how accurate it is. Doing this is easier when the strands are kept wide, because they will bend along their length more readily when wide then when they are very narrow. So by rounding the core strands a bit they will form a compact and dense core when plaited over and later rolled.
Hope this helps.
Franco
Last edited by Canuck Digger on Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
You can learn the knot that is used on the KotCS bullwhip from Bruce Grant's book http://www.davidmorgan.com/product_info ... ucts_id=72
xoxo
Louie
http://bullwhips.org
xoxo
Louie
http://bullwhips.org
Franco,
You are a big help to me, I think you have answered all my last minute questions....now I just have to have the courage to start. I have seen your whips on the 'number....' topic and I am very impressed.
Louie,
Thanks for letting me know about the Grant book. I will certainly seek this one out!
You are a big help to me, I think you have answered all my last minute questions....now I just have to have the courage to start. I have seen your whips on the 'number....' topic and I am very impressed.
Louie,
Thanks for letting me know about the Grant book. I will certainly seek this one out!
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Canuck Digger
- Professor of Archaeology
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:24 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Look as Bernie says 'don't let fear hold you back'. I thank you for your compliments ad they are always welcome, but you need to understand that those whips are in and or themselve an evolution, which you might be able to see if the pic were larger... I ask a lot of questions, when I think I have enough to go for a bit on my own, I go try the answers out. So on and so forth... I've bugged a lot of whipmakers over the years with what are probably basic questions. I didn't wake up on e morning knowing all of this...
BUT
I HAD read ALL the books I could find on the subject. No one book can teach you all you need to know, there's just too much. But as a collection, those that have been made do a good job of introducing you to the craft. The rest is just patience, a steady hand and a really sharp knife.
Cheers,
Franco
BUT
I HAD read ALL the books I could find on the subject. No one book can teach you all you need to know, there's just too much. But as a collection, those that have been made do a good job of introducing you to the craft. The rest is just patience, a steady hand and a really sharp knife.
Cheers,
Franco
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Canuck Digger
- Professor of Archaeology
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:24 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Bernardo is a great guy and he will do whatever he can to help you. He has helped me a lot in the past.
I think that whipmakers today have a different attitude than they may have had 50 + years ago when the market wasn't for sport whipcracking and movie fans but was for ringers (cowboys), coaches and stuntpeole. I understand there was a very big competition and whipmakers were a bit more garded with their knowledge. But with global communications today, ordering a whip from the other side of the planet is easy if one wants, so I think that people now may be of a mind to want to keep the craft alive, and the only way this is going to happen is by passing the torch forward to the next generation.
I think that whipmakers today have a different attitude than they may have had 50 + years ago when the market wasn't for sport whipcracking and movie fans but was for ringers (cowboys), coaches and stuntpeole. I understand there was a very big competition and whipmakers were a bit more garded with their knowledge. But with global communications today, ordering a whip from the other side of the planet is easy if one wants, so I think that people now may be of a mind to want to keep the craft alive, and the only way this is going to happen is by passing the torch forward to the next generation.