Screen Accurate KotCS Pants -- Actual Maker FOUND

[Mannie Bothans]

Since I kinda derailed an earlier thread about the shirt with my post that was mostly about the pants, I am breaking the discussion out into a new thread.

We might still be on to the source of the shirt, but right now we need to get a consensus here regarding who we want to handle this deal.

I know I am a newbie here, so I am asking a respected COW champion that everyone trusts to step up and handle this deal with the finesse that it needs.

Here is the discussion so far:

So... no chance to get an original SA KoTCS movie (not promo) shirt?

Why not call them?

"However, due to public demand, our Tailor Shop is now open to the public for custom made suits, pants, shirts and any garment that the wildest imagination can dream."

Wait up. We don't need everyone in the world calling Western.

Trust me, Paramount can be easily spooked here.

Western farmed out the orders and didn't make the shirts or pants in house.

I know who made the pants and they are willing to work with us, but we can't get an accurate replica if everyone bombards these places with calls. Here's why:

The exact fabric that the SA pants were made from does not exist off the shelf. The production company supplied their own wool to the people who sewed the pants, (and then a local dye shop was given this fabric, and they dyed and overdyed the wool to match samples provided by Paramount).

The people that made the pants are checking (as I type) to see if Paramount collected the scraps and leftover bolts after the tailors completed their jobs. He seriously doubts there is any bolt of SA fabric left, but if there are some scraps left, we have something we can use to match the color.

Even if the place that made the pants has no fabric on bolts, but does have trimming scraps, we probably won't be able to use the same the local dye shop that dyed and overdyed the wool for the production. The local dye shop is currently very tight-lipped on their work, so the lynch-pin on the color are the tailors that actually made the pants.

I'm going to try to see if the palce that sewed the pants has even a scrap of screen-used fabric that they can send to me.

If the place that made the screen-used pants actually makes the custom pieces for us, they would charge $400 for each pair of pants and $200 for each shirt, and even at that they wouldn't be using the exact fabric used in the films; they require all custom tailoring customers to supply their own fabric.

BTW, did I mention that I'm going to try to see if the palce that sewed the pants has a scrap of actual, finished KotCS fabric that they can send to me? Any COW pants-makers willing to make me a pair of pants for cheaper than $200?

I think this is very sound advice - it would be very easy to either scare a potential vendor / supplier off or risk greatly inflated prices. What we need is something to be worked out by one ot two experienced and / or established individuals on everyone's behalf - eg - as was the case with the Flightsuits Expedition.

Ken

Well, since I am neither established around these parts, nor experienced, I will gladly turn this over to someone we all trust. I just don't want us all to "blow it" and spook off our only shot at this.

If the community here wants to pick a designated and trusted broker, I will tell her or him exactly with whom I've talked, how to reach them, and whose name to drop to get him to take your call. I just stumbled into this information. And will gladly pass on what little I've gleaned to someone we want to handle this for us.

The guy at the place where they actually made the pants told me to call him back in 30 minutes and in that time frame he would go and look to see if there was any fabric samples around that he could use for the color. (I think he had to actually go to a seperate location to find out.) After 45 minutes I called him back and he still wasn't back; but he is a very busy guy. He's also very nice and jovial.

My initial conversation with him was just regarding a simple custom order for a pair of pants and a shirt (for myself). He was trying to think of ways to save me money. (E.G. he did not want to get into dying and re-dying wool, but he was willing to help me find an acceptable color match with other fabric). If someone can broker a deal between us and them, he might be willing to help us even more with the fabric. No one knows more about what was actually used than these tailors. Most costumers that do custom stuff for clients require the customer to supply the fabric, but if we are nice enough to this guy and we can through enough business his way, he might be even nicer and he might be able to use his connections at the same local dye shop to get the fabric just right for us.

This place AIN'T gonna be cheap, though. When I was talking to the people at Western, they were talking $500 for pants and $350 for the shirt and they didn't even produce any of the originals for KotCS. I am sure the guy I talked to would know who they used for the shirts, too, if it wasn't this company that definately did the pants.

I'm hoping that this could be handled in such a way that we might be able to walk out of this with the exact fabric, dyed just the same-- and then a cheaper tailor could produce the pants. Even if we had to pay this company an extra $300 to custom dye the wool for one pair of pants, we order one pair of pants, and viola-- we have the color and the pattern for only like $800. If we can get a board member to reproduce these cheap, we spread the cost of the pattern out over the entire order. OR, we just talk this company into helping us get a whole bolt or two properly died (if maybe this company would be willing to help us with that if we could send them enough customers who would use that fabric to buy $400 pants from them). It would definately take the right negotiator to broker this, because like I said earlier, this company has no desire to get into dying and redying right now.

So who do we want to help us with this? Anyone, anyone?

Who has done this type of thing in the past?

[PLATON]

Errr first it sounds to me that it's not proper procedure to make the pants and then dye them (they're wool, wouldn't they shrink?) I guess it was the other way around. They dyed the fabric and then made the pants.

Anyhow, if someone can get me a scrap piece of the SA fabric I can reproduce the same color. I have access to unlimited amounts of white fabric and my tailors can dye it to any color during production.

PM me if you think I could be of help.

Regards,
Platon

[Rambler]

This sounds quite intriguing but too rich for my blood right now. If I read it all correctly, the cost is just for the tailoring and does not include the cost of the custom fabric. The yard goods alone could easily add considerably to the cost of the pants due to the cost to weave and dye the fabric. I have a very little bit of experience with sourcing custom dyed wool uniform fabric (for US Civil War reenacting) and I tell you, it ain't cheap by any standard. If someone actually obtains a piece of the fabric and wants to pursue custom weaving of repro, ask these folks:
http://www.familyheirloomweavers.com/cat/home.html

[Rambler]

You can actually do it either way. Sew first or dye first. In, fact more often with wools the dying is done to the yarns/threads prior to weaving (tweeds for example) For an example in cotton, blue jeans are white threads one way and blue the other. Overdying or garment dying produces that all over stained look where even the tags are (dis)colored such as with tie-dying (for a bad example).
As far as having unlimited amounts of white fabric goes; unless it is the same type of fiber content and weave, in other words, basically the same fabric, the dying process may have to be tweaked considerably to get the same color on two different fabrics.

[Indiana G]

my vote goes to indy magnoli....he's got an eye for detail.....a very scarey eye for detail....enough to keep the stitch nazis happy for sure.

$350 for a shirt? and $500 for the pants?????

when you think of it, and i too am guilty of it, we're wanting reproductions of westeds stuff that normally sell for about $100 a piece makes me chuckle just a little bit.........yet i want SA stuff!!!!!

[Mannie Bothans]

Rambler, the guy I talked to explicitly said "they were dyed and overdyed." He said the local dye shop had to match a sample perfectly.

Platon, regarding the shrinkage issue, he did say Bernie washed the pants (after they delivered them) to make them look old and crumpled.

When we get enough feedback, resources, and contenders-- I say we make a poll and have the community vote on who we want to take the lead on this project.

I, for one, would just be happy with one of our trusted suppliers getting the right color and coming up with their own pattern-- but we MUST give the company that made the pants SOMETHING to make it worth their while, especially if the local dye shop would not be willing to disclose any samples.

Maybe the best we can hope for is a scrap of fabric that had been dyed and overdyed. We don't even know if even a scrap still exists, but that would be fantastic. Maybe I could just ask the guy to send a scrap for me to look at prior to buying the pants. Does anyone else have a better suggestion about how to proceed?

[Mannie Bothans]

$350 for a shirt? and $500 for the pants?????

... that was with me supplying the fabric.

That was the price that Western gave me. The place that actually handled the pants for Western quoted $400 for the pants and $200 for the shirt (with me supplying the fabric). When we got into talking about him helping me with the fabric, he said he didn't want to go back to the dye shop because that would add another $200+ to the cost of the pants and he didn't think they would even dye just enough for one pair of pants. With economies of scale, we could try to broker a better deal if you wanted SA from the people who made the actual pants. The (really, really, nice and helpful) guy I actually spoke to was not a tailor and did not properly recall one of details about the actual pants (he thought they had cuffs) but he did know they were button fly.

[PLATON]

As far as having unlimited amounts of white fabric goes; unless it is the same type of fiber content and weave, in other words, basically the same fabric, the dying process may have to be tweaked considerably to get the same color on two different fabrics.

I am not talking any white fabric. I am talking 100% wool cavalry twill, Made in England. People who have bought pants from me know the quality.

That was the price that Western gave me. The place that actually handled the pants for Western quoted $400 for the pants and $200 for the shirt (with me supplying the fabric). When we got into talking about him helping me with the fabric, he said he didn't want to go back to the dye shop because that would add another $200+ to the cost of the pants and he didn't think they would even dye just enough for one pair of pants. With economies of scale, we could try to broker a better deal if you wanted SA from the people who made the actual pants. The (really, really, nice and helpful) guy I actually spoke to was not a tailor and did not properly recall one of details about the actual pants (he thought they had cuffs) but he did know they were button fly.

$400 is market price for tailored things. Half of the tailors I have tried to work with were asking for similar amounts. But the total would be even higher as the fabric alone for a pair of pants costs more $150.

[Mannie Bothans]

But the total would be even higher as the fabric alone for a pair of pants costs more $150.

Well, that would push the price up to more than $750 for one pair of pants ($150 for the wool, $200 for the custom dyeing and overdying, and $400 to have them built by the tailors that built them for the film).

I'm really thinking we should try to get one of our trusted board members to replicate the pants. That's a given since quality, proven, board members have already expressed an interest in doing this.

The big hurdles at this point are getting our hands on the fabric that is the real deal. I have still not had any luck reaching the guy I talked to by phone. One phone call to him will tell us if any of the fabric exists at all. The guy with whom I have been speaking is the owner of the place that made the costumes for the movie.

If he does not have a bolt or even a scrap of the fabric from the pants he supplied to the film, I am going to try to get him to talk to the local dye shop that the production used (they are more likely to talk to him than they are to talk to me). I might have to guarantee him a certain number of sales before he would go to that much trouble for us. So far two people have said they would shell out the moola for SA pants through this company. Are there any others of you out there with deep enough pockets so that I could guarantee him a minimum number of customers?

The only other option is to have one benefactor make an "investment" in this project, and thus make it worth the while of the company to bend over backwards for us to get the screen accurate color. Perhaps a clothier (of our own ranks here) could make such investment with the prospect of passing these up-front costs along to customers who will buy from them. I will ask the owner of this company what it would take to make it worth his while to help us. (He normally won't touch projects like this and requires his customers to supply their own fabric.)

All of this is just speculation until I hear whether or not there is any fabric on-site at the company that made the pants for the film. But I do want to hear from all of you with any suggestions or insights you might have.

Do you trust me to keep going down this road, do we need to go ahead and turn this completely over to a different board member? If the consensus is that everyone would feel better getting this into the hands of the pros as quickly as possible, I will "step down" as the point person on this project-- and I will let the chosen one take the lead here.

[redsleighdown]

Mannie, you've been going great with this. Thanks for the update and definitely keep it up!

[Mannie Bothans]

Well, I just caled again and the guy that answered the phone told me I'd have to speak to the boss and he was still out of the office. I left my number again, but I suspect that I'll just have to get lucky and call again when the boss is back.

Since I don't have $750 to spend on these pants, I would be happy to turn this over to someone we all trust if it turns out that they don't just have a bolt of this stuff lying around.

If the community here wants to pick a designated and trusted broker, I will tell her or him exactly with whom I've talked, how to reach them, and whose name to "drop" to get him to take your call. I just really lucky and the person who refered me to this guy is someone he really listens to.

[sithspawn]

If this idea comes to fruition you can count me in.

[Mannie Bothans]

Okay, here's the latest update.

The owner has not called me back, and today I learned that he has been (and still is) out of town. I was lucky today though, that the same person answered the phone as the very first time I called and she let me speak directly with the head tailor. He was insanely busy, though, but he said he would check on the Indy fabric when he got a chance and would call me back.

I'm sorry I don't have any better news, but I wanted to give you an update. The last few times I called, I had gotten the same guy who answered the phone and all he would do was take my name and number and tell me the boss wasn't there. This gal has been extremely helpful and she let me talk to the boss the very first time I called. I am glad she answered the phone today, because now i know who to ask for in the Tailoring department when I call back (if the tailor doesn't call me first).

[Ken]

Remember to note people's names. Not only will this be helpful but will also make them more kindly disposed to you if you can call them by name

Ken

[Mannie Bothans]

Remember to note people's names. Not only will this be helpful but will also make them more kindly disposed to you if you can call them by name

Ken

Great point!

[PLATON]

Any news update?

[Mannie Bothans]

Any news update?

Okay. I just got off the phone with the owner of the place who actually made the pants for the movie. The owner just told me that the fabric was supplied to his tailors and they picked up all leftover bolts and samples when Indy 4 production wrapped. The owner said he could try to track down the original supplier, but he did not want to bring the wrath of Paramount down upon his head, so he was not even going to try.

I am sorry this is such a disappointing outcome. I think I have gleaned just about as much as I can from these folks without really getting on their nerves. This company is in the middle of a big order for another movie right now, so they aren't clamoring for lots of custom orders.

If someone else calls them, they might want to ask them the name and number of the dye shop that dyed the supplied fabric (and overdyed the pants). The dye shop might have some samples that could be our magic ticket here, but a fresh voice might stand a better chance of getting that information out of these guys.

[knibs7]

Ok guys, there HAS to be someone else who can help us find the SA fabric and designers/tailors for KOTCS.

Nibs

[Castor Dioscuri]

Right. Go get her, Knibs! ;-)