Raiders bag strap has no grooves, or does it??

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:29 pm

As you can see here the Raiders bag strap doesn't seem to have the grooves on it. The question is why do almost all the replicas have the grooves?

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:32 pm

K on the run wrote:For a very long time Adventurebilt has been looking high and low for belt buckles and bag strap buckles.
We gave up on the bag strap buckles and made our own but the quest for the gun belt buckle was never abandoned completely.
And now the quest is finally over.
We found not only the gun belt buckle but the gentleman that made the actual belts and bag straps for Raiders.

We of cause asked him about the grooves in the bag strap and........ He said that there was indeed grooves in the straps but and as he said "I should know, I made them!." He then said that "It just don't look finished with out grooves."
Well in all the excitement we forgot to ask about grooves in the gun belt so we had to call him up again. He told us that there was grooves in the gun belt as well. He assured us that it was the case but that they could be difficult to see because of the heavy distressing the belts was given.
He also told us that the gun belt buckle it still in production but the bag strap buckle is no more available (lucky we have that covered already)

So ladies and gentlemen what does all this mean?
Well, Adventurebilt Leather will be making bag straps and gun belts some time in the future. We now have the gun belt buckles, "all" we need to do is sample leather in the correct quality and color.
If you have any knowledge in these matters please post it here or contact me (I need al the help I can get )
Oh yes, did I mention the bag strap buckle we make
You can see it here:
viewtopic.php?t=26002

Best Regards,
Kim

viewtopic.php?t=26421

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:38 pm

So it's the word of a guy who may have made the original straps? His recollection doesn't seem to jive with the hard evidence we see on screen and in photos.

He says there's grooves and to me there isn't.

Personally I believe what I see. What does everyone else think?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:45 pm

So it's the word of some guy who may have made the original straps?

No, he did make them. This has been an ongoing debate here for almost a decade. If you feel they don't have grooves, then buy a strap withouth them. I personally have always felt they were there and have posted Hi-def caps before where I believe they were very noticeable. We have Noel who worked for Bermans/Nathans at the time and he has always made his straps with grooves and now we have the guy who actually made them for the production telling us they had grooves.

If you notice, all the Nole Howard straps have the grooves but they're very subtle. I can understand how they may be missed in the film.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:52 pm

It's always possible. I think the strap looks better with the grooves, I just don't see them.

I have a Todd's deluxe with grooves and I'm getting a Keppler without grooves so I'm covered either way.

10 years debate over a strap? Geez.

Herr Doktor · Post by **Herr Doktor** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:55 pm

TheMechanic wrote:10 years debate over a strap? Geez.

Welcome to COW!

Falstaff · Post by **Falstaff** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:01 pm

I recently had to replace my Todd's strap and decided to try something different. I went with one of Magnoli's dark brown straps with no grooves and like that look better. Maybe when Raider's comes out on Blu-ray will we finally be able to tell for sure, because on the DVD's I can't for the life of me see grooves.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:02 pm

TheMechanic wrote:

Also, don't forget that half of those pictures are too blurry to make fair calls. A good way to judge it is if you can't see the shirt stitching, then you won't see the grooves.

While I can't honestly say that I know definitively if there are grooves or not, I do put alot of faith in what the AB name says. If they believe they've found the guy who made the grooves, then so do I. And if Noel Howard believed there to be grooves as well, then that's all I need to know.

In my opinion though, in the top left picture, I believe I can make out grooves towards the bottom 1/4 of the strap.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:07 pm

The first time I ever saw Raiders the first thing I thought was "Hey, that's a European rifle sling!" Now 20 something years later I decided to check back into it. Check this out, a Finnish M31 Suomi rifle sling. Something like this had to be what they copied to make his bag strap-

Note it has a "sling stud" , traditionally used on Euro slings on one end and not a Chicago screw but when attached they are identical looking. This one has grooves too!

murcok · Post by **murcok** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:56 am

where did you buy this?
i'm searching one because the original strap is breaking...
Where do you think is the better seller for this?
thanks

Post by **Holt** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:09 am

another question is..did the LC bagstrap have grooves or not?...

I know this has been gone over before...but it made me think here the other day...I know that the raiders had grooves in the strap but you cant see them on screen....would it maby be the same for the LC strap??

grooves in them but you cant see them on screen...and because it's a so dark strap?

just thought's here....

Holt

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:59 pm

There's all kinds of places to get bag straps. You can try Magnoli Clothiers, Todd's Costumes or you can try to get ahold of Lee Keppler at Adventuresupply.

Whether of not the LC strap had grooves...who knows and if you can't see them on film it really doesn't matter. Get which one you like. That's my take on the whole thing. Get the strap that looks the best to you and have fun.

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:34 pm

As I type, I am staring at the cover of Premiere magazine with Speilberg and Ford on the cover from June 1989. You can clearly see the bag strap and roller buckle. The correct term for the groove in the leather terminology is a "creased edge." However, it appears the the LC strap has no crease in this photo.

Have fun.

Jake

indiana smith · Post by **indiana smith** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:48 pm

I can see grooves in every one of those pictures.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:37 pm

Then give me whatever you're smoking because they are not any grooves on any of the bag straps in any of the films.

Call Lee Keppler, he'll tell you all of the stories from his 27 years of research, everything from handling the real props to making all the different connections with the people who worked on the film.

Lee had the people who made the original leather goods for Raiders make him up a holster in the early 80's. They said "Yeah we made that stuff, sure no problem we'll make you the same holster that we made for the movie." Well Lee got back a black holster that wasn't even for the right gun. Later on when Noel Howard approached them to start selling Indy stuff, the same thing happened. "Yeah we made the stuff for the movie, sure we'll make it just like you saw in the film, sure it had grooves on it".

The plain truth is these people couldn't remember what they did and didn't keep records or photos of their work from the movie. When they provided Howard with grooved bag straps it began this urban legend that refuses to die. Just because Noel Howard sold bag straps with grooves on them doesn't mean that the originals made years before had grooves.

Lee says, "No grooves" and I believe him.

In the end it really doesn't matter though. Wear whatever you want and enjoy it.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:59 pm

I also see grooves, but I've always seen grooves. But, since you say

there are not any grooves on any of the bag straps in any of the films

then you have to be right so I side with you. I no longer see grooves.

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:09 am

TheMechanic wrote:Lee says, "No grooves" and I believe him.

...And if Agent 5 says there's grooves, I believe him. No one knows Raiders better. No one.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:38 pm

There's no point in arguing over this. It's really pointless.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:41 pm

Thanks, Cassidy. I appreciate that. However, on this one I can't claim to be an expert, although I have put in hours of study to the grooves on the bag strap. I have concluded that there are some bags that have a groove and some that may not. Can't be certain. We have Lee giving us confirmation of no grooves from guys who worked on the film and Noel and the Marc/KontheRun conncection who claims he worked on them and that there were grooves. How anyone at this point can make any accurate assumption is in bad judgement to me. Everyone is going to have an opinion on it and every opinion is a valid one as far as I'm concerned. But to state you know for a fact when you don't is just sumping to conclusions.

The grooves Noel did were very shallow and that's how they seem to be on the straps in the film. Barely noticeable, but especially when dirt or Fullers Earth get into the grooves they become evident to me. Even in many of my own gear photos its hard to make out the grooves.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:45 pm

Like I said, I have one with grooves and one without so I'm covered either way. I actually like the grooves, it makes the strap look better IMO. Whether or not they were there in real life doesn't matter. Get the one (or ones) you like and have fun with it.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:47 pm

Whether or not they were there in real life doesn't matter. Get the one (or ones) you like and have fun with it.

That goes without question. It's still nice to be able to debate it. I just wish there was more to go on. Oh well. BluRay someday.

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:34 pm

agent5 wrote:
Whether or not they were there in real life doesn't matter. Get the one (or ones) you like and have fun with it.
That goes without question. It's still nice to be able to debate it. I just wish there was more to go on. Oh well. BluRay someday.

What? Seeing it umpteen times in 16mm and 35mm wasn't hi-res enough for you?

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:50 pm

well my 2 cents...

I dont actually care so much anymore.I have one with and one without grooves.

I dont see grooves on film...so the SA way for me would to wear the no grooves strap,but after Kim's confirmation from the guy who made the straps I believe the straps had the grooves.

bests
Holt

VP · Post by VP » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:36 pm

TheMechanic wrote:Check this out, a Finnish M31 Suomi rifle sling.

Technically that's not a rifle sling since Suomi M/31 is a submachine gun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_M/31

TheMechanic wrote:Note it has a "sling stud" , traditionally used on Euro slings on one end

Yeah, our 7.62 RK 62 assault rifles that most of the Finnish troops use have that kind of a sling. The newer 7.62 RK 95 TP that for example I use have a different strap.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:41 pm

Yes you're right and I should have known better. I've grown up with guns and been shooting since I was 6.

However the Finnish Army also used the exact sling for the Mosin Nagant. I just picked one up for my son's MK VII and the best part was it was only $3.00!

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:14 pm

I regret not having a working scanner to provide an image, but I will site a photo that many of you may already have. In the new book "The Complete Making of Indiana Jones" There is a photo that shows the creased edge on the shoulder strap. Turn to page 102. There is a color photo of Indy and Marion. You can see it above Indy's right shirt pocket. The creased edge has a fine amount of dust caught in it, near the lower edge of the strap.

I am also looking at a still photo on the cover of PEOPLE magazine from July 20, 1981. Indy stands with Marion on the cover. The sun hits the top of Indy's right shoulder, and there is a dark line that follows the edge of the strap. The visible portion of the edge crease is very small, but it's there. I'd like to thank my Opti-visor for it's incredible power!

Hope this helps,

Jake J

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:43 pm

Strange thing this bag strap. Lee Keppler had 2 friends in the Lucasfilm Archive that handled the straps, and measured them for Lee. Both said "no grooves". Lee saw one in person in 1985 in a glass display case. He said the strap was "4 inches from my face, and it had no grooves."

A real mystery this pesky little strap has turned out to be.

My advice, get 2 straps one with and one without. You'll be covered both ways.

conceited_ape · Post by **conceited_ape** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:12 am

TheMechanic wrote:Strange thing this bag strap. Lee Keppler had 2 friends in the Lucasfilm Archive that handled the straps, and measured them for Lee. Both said "no grooves". Lee saw one in person in 1985 in a glass display case. He said the strap was "4 inches from my face, and it had no grooves."

A real mystery this pesky little strap has turned out to be.

My advice, get 2 straps one with and one without. You'll be covered both ways.

1985, you say?

Could it be Lee was looking at a ToD strap? I'll bet good money that THAT strap has no grooves.

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:54 am

Nope! It was a Raiders buckle. Also, my contact at LF described both the Raiders buckle, which I'd seen at the SW Con, and also the TOD buckle with the roller. Who knows, maybe one had grooves, but I'll still say no grooves.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:45 am

I'm honestly not sure what to believe now. I believe Lee's testimony, but on the other hand, there are a lot of people who've seen grooves - whether it be on good screenshots or magazines and I believe Kim's source as well - especially since I trust Kim's judgment on the matter. It doesn't really matter to me though. I think grooves look best and so, SA or not, that's what I'm gonna wear. :junior: -M

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:46 pm

I'm going to go with Lee's testimony. I have always thought, even when I when I saw Raiders for the first at the drive-in I thought hmmm, he probably made it himself from a piece of latigo from a local shoe store or harness shop (I figured he probably had a farmer buddy in the country or somthing) after the original webbing wore out. If that were the case most latigo doen't hace grooves, unless you buy the "prepared" kind or use latgio for English tack. Indy would know about this since he grew up in southern Utah and was a Boy Scout.
(sidenote: I always thought that his pocketknife was his old Boy Scout knife that he kept, I still have mine, the old ones had a antler type look to the handle)

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:21 pm

I present another picture-

david villa · Post by **david villa** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:29 pm

Now, to muddy the waters a little....

Could it be that there were inconsistencies in the props used in different scenes or in reshooting camera angles?

Small mistakes, such as the revolver turning into an automatic and then back into a revolver in the Raven Bar scene in Raiders?

'twould explain the differing opinions....

But then again, I'm only a Grail Volunteer

dv

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:44 pm

TheMechanic wrote:As you can see here the Raiders bag strap doesn't seem to have the grooves on it. The question is why do almost all the replicas have the grooves?

I might be wrong, but I'm sure I can see a pair of lines running length-wise along the edges of the strap on the upper right picture. I can't see any on the other pictures though, but I believe that in that picture at least, they are there.

Before anyone says that I'm only seeing what I want to see: I'm rather new at the Indy gear thing and up until reading this thread I didn't know that most Raiders repro straps had those lines. In fact, I was looking in to this because I have just ordered a mk VII and I wanted to know what kind of strap was correct for Raiders.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:55 pm

Any strap you want is accurate to Raiders. Grooves, no grooves it doesn't matter. If you can't see them what difference does it make? Get whichever one you like.

I swear if you put the "it has grooves" people in a small room with the "no it doesn't" people they'd kill each other.

I'm sorry I started this thread. It just seems to make people angry. If you're not with them you're against them. It's kind of ridiculous.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:08 pm

Then I am an exeption: I'm not for or against either.

I only believe to see them in that one picture, and that one picture alone. I am however fully aware that it might just be a trick of the eye.

I'll just pick up one of the two versions and wait paitiently for the blue-ray to correct it to SA.

Regards, Geert

Post by **Holt** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:20 pm

ok by this picture I can proove to my self that the raiders bag strap had the grooves..

if ya'll like to believe it had no grooves then fine by me of course..

but this seals it for me..

I saw this close up picture with the strap

I use photoshop to rework the contrasts and bring out the shadows in the strap

if you dont see to lines on the edges of the strap you need to sit closer to the screen

bests
Holt

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 am

That is a publicty shot from the back cover of a coffee table book called "Stars". The strap is too wide and has no buckle or loop. The bag is not seen. I think they needed a strap for the look and used someone's belt in a 1 1/4" width that of course had grooves. By the way, you can also see the underarm gussets on the jacket in this picture.

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:11 am

TheMechanic wrote:There's no point in arguing over this. It's really pointless.

You started it!

..Groovy!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:06 am

I think they needed a strap for the look and used someone's belt in a 1 1/4" width that of course had grooves.

That's always been a best guess. Nobody really knows for sure if it was the bag/strap or not and if you look you can see that there ARE grooves on that pic above. Just because you can't see a bag or buckle doesn't mean he didn't put it on backwars again with the bag behind him, not seen.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:25 am

That picture above shows that whatever strap is there is as wide or even wider than the pleats on his shirt. It can't be a "bag strap" as we know it.

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:56 pm

Here's another interesting tidbit, Ford's bag strap buckle was sewn on as I long suspected.

This is a screen cap where's he's running with the idol. In this scene the bag strap has flipped over showing the back side.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:16 pm

It can't be a "bag strap" as we know it.

I've learned here over the years that illusions can be strange things and make you see things you think aren't there and are and vice-verse. I'm just saying we cannot say definitively, one way or the other if this is an actual strap from the film or not. It's anyones best guess and theory as it always has been.

Post by **Holt** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:46 pm

here is a another well knowen photo from Indy in the well of souls

in this photo you can see the bag on the strap

I have changed the color to bring out the shadows.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... rooves.jpg

bests
Holt

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:34 pm

It just occured to me that wars have started for less than this. We all seem to be going into two camps. To quote Rodney, "Can't we all just get along?".

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:52 pm

They may be wars to some, but to others they are merely discussions.

I think we've always been in two camps, Lee, but honestly, I think we're all getting along just fine.

Did you ever hear any definitive proof on that particular photo session missing the bag/strap so it was replaced, or is this just a theory which you share along with many others?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:01 pm

Some scenes have a strap that looks wider, this is one from the swordsman sequence, still no grooves though!

TheMechanic · Post by **TheMechanic** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:33 pm

The nest thing to consider, does his gunbelt have grooves or not? In the Cairo whip fight close-up screen caps you can see the groove on the edge of his belt. (I think).

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:23 pm

I don't know about y'all, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that Wardrobe had more than one gas mask bag on hand (typical) and that some were groovy and some were not, and that level of consistency in such a minor detail didn't really matter to them at the time.

Post by **Holt** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:26 pm

not to throw a little gasoline on the fire..but...here is another one

this is from the scene were Indy jumps over the gap..

look closely...there are grooves..

now I am not saying that there was no straps without grooves in them but there are clearly straps with them in several scenes and promo pictures

bests
Holt

Raiders bag strap has no grooves, or does it??

Raiders bag strap has no grooves, or does it??

Re: Raiders bag strap has no grooves

where

Get your groove on!

SHORT ROUND - Where's my creaser?

Re: Raiders bag strap has no grooves, or does it??