Which HJ should I get?

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:14 pm

Hey guys, since Steve and Marc are both behind making hats, and I am eventually going to order my AB soon with Steve, which I will probably put me in the late fall arrvial time of my hat. So I need a hat that is going to look like the hat in Raiders, tight pinch, etc in time for the new movie and I have heard a lot of people like Magnoli Clothiers to get the HJ hat from. There also is Todd's Costumes, and they are offering HJ hats as well and can shape them to however you want. Anyone have an HJ from one of these vendors and would like to share their experience? Or you can express your personal preference, either one.

IndianaChris

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:25 pm

The Magnoli HJ is built on Steve's Raider's block from unfinished bodies. The Todd's HJs are factory stock. If it was me, I'd buy one from Magnoli -- it has that sought-after "stovepipe" crown that the factory HJ lacks.

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:41 pm

Gladly...I only own one of the two hats mentioned but without question, my answer would be the Magnoli Clothiers Herbert Johnson. As far as I understand Todd offers a great product but it is just a stock Poet manufactured by HJ, sent to Todd open crowned and styled as you like. The Magnoli Clothiers HJ consists of a Poet hat body, and all of the parts of the hat separate. These parts are then sent to Fedora. The hat is then blocked by Steve using his old Raiders block, (turned if you wish) assembled, trimmed, ribboned, bowed (using the correct ribbon that only he and Marc can get), and then styled anyway you like. Oh, also, the stock Poet is a little more difficult to reblock as the sweat is sewn on by a machine thus creating a perforation along which it could tear off the brim during a reblock. The MC HJ's sweat is hand sewn allowing an easer/less nerve wracking reblock.

Johnny

p.s. Oh and if you're worried about getting a hat in time for the film, just wait a bit. Steve and Marc are working on a factory built version of the Adventurebilt Fedora. Both Raiders and Crystal Skull versions!

And maybe (hopefully) just in time for the film.

-J

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:42 pm

Hey Johnny, thanks for your opinion on the difference between Todd's and Magnoli, I am definately going to go with Magnoli. I am definately going to place an order with Steve or Marc soon. I do hope those factory built AB's turn up soon, once I did hear the announcement I was wondering how quality was going to be. I know those two guys are going to make sure those hats are going to look great.

So maybe I am getting three hats this year.

Thanks for the pics of your hat too Johnny, really is a very beautiful hat, looks very nice. My gut instinct was Magnoli, I am going to stick to what my instincts are telling me.

IndianaChris

Bemo · Post by **Bemo** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:21 pm

Hey Johnny,

Is that a standard (5.5") crown height?

Peace.

Bemo

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:09 pm

The Indy magnoli would be the HJ to get. Made by Steve with the right block shape hands down. Good choice on your order on the AB. You will just love it. I have 3 AB and 1 delux. I sold off all my other hats. there was no need to have any other hats. I would suggest maybe getting a Akubra. Good quality hat, you'll get in no time and it looks raiders ( close enough).

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:09 am

Of the two, I'd go with the Magnoli (which I have). However, you may want to inquire about delivery time. There is sometimes a wait (though not nearly as long as the AB). So, make sure that the Magnoli wait time fits with your needs.

The Akubras make a fair Indy hat, too. And there's always Keppler and Peter Bros.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:42 am

I can only add that the Magnoli HJ ended my decades-long quest for the ideal Raiders hat.

I've never owned a Todd's HJ or a Keppler; I did get a couple of HJ's from Lee, but I don't think he sells them anymore.

Of the available HJ's, I'd say the Magnoli/AB/HJ is probably the best bang for your buck right now.

Jack

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:10 pm

I just sent an e-mail to Magnoli's and asked how long it would take to make the hat. If it is going to take 5 months, and it would get here before the film is released then I am going to go for it. I thought about Akubra as well, I may go that direction if for some reason I cannot get a Magnoli hat on time. So I guess I will just wait and see. I am definately going to get an AB, hopefully Marc and Steve will be gettin those factory AB's going soon.

Thanks for you input guys.

IndianaChris

Mississippi Jones · Post by **Mississippi Jones** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:36 pm

I've been trying to look this up, but what does it mean to have your fedora [b]"turned?"[/b]

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:21 pm

Mississippi Jones wrote:I've been trying to look this up, but what does it mean to have your fedora "turned?"

I remember wondering the same thing when I started. Basically, you put the hat on your head, then spin it slightly to the right. A turned hat is blocked that way. This causes a distinct warp in the brim seen in most of the scenes in Raiders.

Bemo · Post by **Bemo** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:17 pm

IndianaChris, could you post Magnoli's response? If that hat has a shorter crown, then I've found my hat.

Peace.

Bemo

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:06 am

Hurm, I never thought to check before. Ok, as near as I can tell with my trusty tape-measure, my crown is 5.0". That said it was probably 5.5 open crowned to start with before it was creased and bashed? I guess only Steve would know for sure.

As far as turning the hat there are a few thoughts on this. (And I know going into it that I'll leave something out but...) As near as we can tell (thanks 3 thoubucks and Steve) the Raiders Fedora was in key sequences and I quote..."The front pinch in the Raiders crown was installed about 2/3 of a inch OFF CENTER. Therefore, the hat was worn "turned" about 2/3 inch OFF CENTER.
Thus, every element of the hat is asymmetrical, and, the hat is actively coping with distortion, giving it a certain lively tension." To sum up, it's this turn that gives the Raiders Fedora the distinctive brim warp and thus adds to the look so many of us look for in the Raiders hat. For more info on this check out...www.raidershat.com. Reverse engineering at its' finest.

Johnny

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:04 am

When deciding whether or not you want the "turn" feature on your hat, remember that the distinctive brim warp caused by the turn may diminish over time as your hat conforms to the shape of your head and the brim relaxes into its original symmetrical shape again. I believe I first read about that in one of Steve's posts, if memory serves.

Open-crown, the Raiders fedora is 5 1/2". Steve gives the dimensions for the creased Raiders crown, for most of that movie, as 4 3/4" in front, and 4" in the back. But the dimensions do change from scene to scene. The front varied from 4 1/2" to 5", and the back ranged from 3 3/4 to 4 1/2". So you have a pretty wide range of creased crown heights to choose from. The front, of course, should always be higher than the back for a SA look.

Jack

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:31 pm

Hey guys, thanks for explaining "the turn" I knew it had something to do with turning the hat a certain way I just did not know the specifics. Johnny is that a turned hat? I guess you learn something new everyday.

Bemo, I did get something back from Magnoli's. He said that if he had my size in stock, it sounded like it would not be that long, if he did not then he would have to order some in. But he said it could maybe be done before the big day, so sounded positive to me. I have got a big head (runs in the family) so I am not sure if he had some in stock, I sent a reply to him about hat size, but got no reply back on that yet. If I get no reply today I will try to send him another, maybe my e-mail got lost.

Thanks for explaination on "the turn" guys and I think I am probably going to get it on my Magnoli, we'll see, still debating on it.

IndianaChris

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:23 pm

Yup. My hat is turned. I asked Steve once if I had to ask for the turn and he said that he knew the hat well enough, that if the hat was turned in the scene I had requested it would be there, and it is. My hat is a Raiders of the Lost Ark fedora as it looked when Indiana is ready to switch the idol for the bag of sand. The hat relaxed alittle in shipping and I'm slowly working the pinch and dents dry the way we see Harrison monkeying with it during the making of Raiders and now Crystal Skull. It worked for him, should work for me.

Also, I did indeed send Steve pictures of my ugly noggin. Front, back, and side, and it shows. This is the most flattering hat I've ever worn. It suits my features so well that even (my less than as obsessed as I) wife had to say that it looked good on. I love it, and would highly recomend pics of yourself be sent when ordered.

Johnny

p.s. Oh, per Easybox's post, I remesured my crown quickly before work and it looks as though I was off...it's right around 4 3/4" in the front and 4" in the back give or take. Of course that was in a hurry and I'll check again when I get home to verify.-J

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:40 pm

I remember one of the first AB's I got from Steve, I put it on, looked in the mirror and thought, "Dang! Steve sewed the ribbon and bow on crooked!"

He told me by email it was 'turned' by mistake, as he had forgotten I was never a fan of the 'turn theory'.

All I have ever thought regarding this 'turn was, THANK HEAVENS Ford didn't have one trouser leg hicked up higher than the other in some of the action scenes. Folks would be ordering trousers with one leg shorter than the other to copy the 'look'!!

Don't mind me, though. If it makes you happy, GO for it!

Regards! Michaelson

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:38 pm

Oh, I know about the back and forth on this issue but I do trust Steve's knowlege of the Raiders hat. If he says it was turned, that's good enough for me. And I have to say that the first time I put it on and the turn did it's thing to the brim I geeked out.

Johnny

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:53 pm

I would go for a Todds HJ.

It looks much better in color and the Magnoli hj is basically rabbit AB.

So if you want a HJ get a Todds. I've seen two friends get raiders hats out of a todds HJ. And I've never seen a magnoli HJ that looks Raiders!

just my 2 cts.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:23 pm

[quote="Johnny Fedora
p.s. Oh, per Easybox's post, I remesured my crown quickly before work and it looks as though I was off...it's right around 4 3/4" in the front and 4" in the back give or take. Of course that was in a hurry and I'll check again when I get home to verify.-J[/quote]

Johnny,

I don't think these little differences are really that critical-- they may be for a SA Crystal Skull fedora depending on what we eventually see in the movie, but not the Raiders. As you said, your hat looks great on you, and that's the most important thing. JMO, for what it's worth.

Jack

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:17 pm

I contacted Indy Magnoli a few days back about my hat size and I have gotten no response back from him. Is Indy Magnoli a hard guy to get by e-mail? I thought maybe my e-mail got lost somewhere and so I tried contacting him through Magnoli Clothiers website, and still no reply. I am thinking he might be busy? I have not ordered the hat yet from Magnoli yet, but I think I will today or tomorrow. I have to get my pictures of my head. Since I want to hat to look good on my noggin.

IndianaChris

CM · Post by CM » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:19 pm

Michaelson wrote:I remember one of the first AB's I got from Steve, I put it on, looked in the mirror and thought, "Dang! Steve sewed the ribbon and bow on crooked!" :roll:

He told me by email it was 'turned' by mistake, as he had forgotten I was never a fan of the 'turn theory'. :lol:

All I have ever thought regarding this 'turn was, THANK HEAVENS Ford didn't have one trouser leg hicked up higher than the other in some of the action scenes. Folks would be ordering trousers with one leg shorter than the other to copy the 'look'!! :shock: :wink:

Don't mind me, though. If it makes you happy, GO for it! :D

Regards! Michaelson

That's very funny - and a nice way to show how screen accuracy can become more than a little insane. I'm just glad Harrison wore pants in the film... things could have been ugly.

hp · Post by hp » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:07 am

Dutch_jones wrote:I would go for a Todds HJ.

It looks much better in color and the Magnoli hj is basically rabbit AB.

So if you want a HJ get a Todds. I've seen two friends get raiders hats out of a todds HJ. And I've never seen a magnoli HJ that looks Raiders!

just my 2 cts.

Well, I got both.
In 2005 I bought a HJ from the former German distibutor lichtschwerter.de - I guess it's the same as Todd's.
At least it's exactly the same as the Magnoly HJ I got in November 2007 in terms of felt, color, sweat, liner and logo.
The only difference is the block shape ;-)

Dutch_jones - do you also have access to both hats? I mean, did you hold them in your hands?

Cheers
HP

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:50 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:I would go for a Todds HJ.

It looks much better in color and the Magnoli hj is basically rabbit AB.

So if you want a HJ get a Todds. I've seen two friends get raiders hats out of a todds HJ. And I've never seen a magnoli HJ that looks Raiders!

just my 2 cts.

And you're entitled to your 2cts, but check it out.
This is right off Steve's block...looks like Raiders to me.

I don't know...my fedora is getting there, she's not done yet but even when I pulled it out of the box my wife noticed that the look was there. I've also seen a couple around the boards that nail the Raiders look. As for the color being better...the two hat bodies are from the same manufacturer so I'm pretty sure the color is the same. And lastly, as to the statement that the Magnoli hj is basically rabbit AB...amen!

That's why I love it. The felt is less prone to taper, the block is dead on, and I don't have to worry that Steve or anybody else for that matter will pull the brim off reblocking it.

Johnny

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Thats a bueaty.

you need the turn or it just doesn't look Raiders.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:28 am

No Iam sorry that looks like an AB thats not a HJ, and its too perfect to look raiders.

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:18 pm

Actually that hat is one of Steve's personal HJ's reblocked on his Raiders' block. I nabbed the pic from a thread a couple of pages back or so.

Johnny

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:54 pm

Wow that looks really nice, now I can't wait to get my Magnoli HJ. I also did order an AB from Steve, but wow that HJ looks good. Thanks Johnny for letting us know what HJ that was. Looks great,

Now I am just waiting in anticipation for my Magnoli/AB/HJ hat as well as later this year my AB.

IndianaChris

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:05 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:No Iam sorry that looks like an AB thats not a HJ, and its too perfect to look raiders.

Todds HJ doesn't have the right block shape. If you don't have the right block shape, you not going to get that raiders look. I think the reason the Mag/HJ/AB looks like a rabbit AB is because it's got the right block shape.

Besides the the Tods being the wrong block shape it's not put together very well. Machine stitched and the ribbon is ugly. No were near the raiders ribbon.

Now the mag/HJ/AB is put together all by hand.

If you are going to get a HJ, it's no contest that the mag/HJ/AB is the way to go.

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:19 am

I beg to differ with the bashing that Todd HJ is getting. I ordered my first Indy fedora from him and was quite pleased. some after, a former coworker brounght in his new AB and we compared hats. He said he knew a lot about felts and hats and that he could tell his was better. I clould see only very minute differences, but not enoght to write about. The others at our lunch table were not gear head fans and couldn't tell the difference between the two of them..

Now I own an AB raiders hat and without looking at the liner, it is often hard for me to tell the difference. The main difference: Todd gives ample warning that his hat is not designed to be worn in the rain, while folks boast about their ABs surviving rain and snow. Price and use. Consider both.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:48 am

I'm sorry if you can't tell the differnce in felts (AB & Todd's HJ). The HJ has to much air in it. It's almost like a spounge. As for the AB, it's very dense felt but still smooth and soft. Details my freind details.Also look at the ribbon. The Hj is just ugly, Where as the AB is vintage and tacked on very well. Again details.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:13 am

And personal preference.

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:44 am

Indiana MarkVII wrote:I beg to differ with the bashing that Todd HJ is getting. I ordered my first Indy fedora from him and was quite pleased.

I'm sorry you think that we're bashing Todd's Herbert Johnson hat offering, far from it, in fact I almost bought that hat. (And he still has a few things I need for my gear

) But, what we're discussing here are specs, and pros and cons to compare and contrast the two hats. When it comes down to it the IM/HJ happens to be the superior offering do to the different construction methods used in making the thing. Todd may even have found a more accurate block (maybe even Steve's Raider's block available at Lamond's) but it's still a factory built Poet. As such it has all of the other problems that are inherent to that hat already mentioned in this and other posts.

BendingOak wrote:I'm sorry if you can't tell the differnce in felts (AB & Todd's HJ). The HJ has to much air in it. It's almost like a spounge. As for the AB, it's very dense felt but still smooth and soft.

BendingOak is right and that's something I failed to mention. Steve also repounces, sands and then irons while on the block the rabbit felt raw hat bodies he receives from HJ. This not only results in a finer more accurate finish to the felt but helps to stabilize the rabbit, making it more weather and taper resistant. Is it the same as the steps he and Marc employ to "kill" the felt in a beaver AB? No, but it does greatly extend the life span of this hat and I don't freak out if caught out in some snow. I couldn't say that same about a stock Poet hat. Look, at the end of the day we all choose the hat that works for us, but consider this, a stock open crowned and styled by Todd, HJ is $299.00 open crowned,$318.95 styled, and $323.95 styled SoC fashion, and then whatever shipping and handling would be. For $305.00 (shipped) I got a hat that looks like the hat I wanted, hand made by a craftsman who knows these hats (perhaps more than he can reveal now

) intmately, that will last longer before returning to the cone shape that all hats start as (and then reblocked safely). When it all comes down to it...I'm not a wealthy person and so the responsible choice for me, was the Magnoli Clothiers Herbert Johnson fedora.

Cheers!
Johnny

myamoebafriend · Post by **myamoebafriend** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:40 pm

Johnny Fedora wrote: This is right off Steve's block...looks like Raiders to me.

Johnny

Is this with or without the turn?

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:57 pm

This looks to be with the turn, because the bow is more prominent in the front view.

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:05 pm

Only Steve could say for sure, but to my eye and what I remember of this particular hat, it is indeed turned.

Johnny

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sat May 31, 2008 2:10 pm

Is Streets of Cairo turned?

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Sat May 31, 2008 2:52 pm

Up...SoC seems to have the most turn infact.

Johnny

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sat May 31, 2008 4:14 pm

If you want an HJ, then Magnoli is the best option. I like Todd's, but with the Poet it's hit and miss as far as quality. The Magnoli is always going to be the better HJ.

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sat May 31, 2008 6:13 pm

Reading all of this stuff about Magnoli is getting me excited for when my hat ships...I have to say I have to thank Johnny Fedora and Gabrielle for their comments and critiques of magnoli...you guys factored into my decision...

Thanks

Rich

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:47 pm

has anyone ever ordered from www.swaineadeney.co.uk

The Herbert Johnson website moderator redirected me there and their hats look bad. What do you guys think?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Sat May 31, 2008 10:06 pm

Wow, talk about an unflattering picture. I guess it shouldn't be surprising since Herbert Johnson kind of hates it's Indy legacy.

I wouldn't take that hat for free.

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sat May 31, 2008 11:59 pm

Neither would I

IndianaJack91 · Post by **IndianaJack91** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:55 am

i have one of todd's and i love it! props to todd

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:10 pm

IndianaJack91 wrote:i have one of todd's and i love it! props to todd

I have one of Todd's HJ fedoras as well, and I love it. I wore it to the midnight premiere of KofCS in Hollywood and got numerous compliments, especially on the height of the crown. I had to replace the stock ribbon with some Petersham, but I love the Streets of Cairo look this has. Now I just need to get it nice and dirty!

-Craig

Scott63 · Post by **Scott63** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:47 pm

Very cool looking hat, Craig! I can see why you got so many compliments.

Scott

serrecuir · Post by **serrecuir** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:27 pm

Scott63 wrote:Very cool looking hat, Craig! I can see why you got so many compliments.

Scott

Thanks, Scott. It truly is a great hat, and I love the reverse taper visible in the above pic. But, like I said, I had to put a little work into getting it more screen accurate, including not only replacing the ribbon, but also reshaping the brim. It was really floppy and turned down in the back. A little steam ironing brought out the stiffener in the brim and allowed it to be easily reshaped.

-Craig

LANDINGPARTY · Post by **LANDINGPARTY** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:23 pm

How SA is the ribbon that Magnoli uses?

indy89 · Post by **indy89** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:49 pm

LANDINGPARTY wrote:How SA is the ribbon that Magnoli uses?

I believe it's the same ribbon Steve uses, therefore it IS screen accurate.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:03 pm

That's right, the ribbon used for the Magnoli HJ is the same ribbon that was used on the original Raiders hat. Apparently only Marc and Steve know the source for this ribbon.

Jack