Indy IV Handling Style?

[Castor Dioscuri]

Today, I noticed that on a box of Corn Pops, there was a picture of an old Indy swinging a bullwhip, and it seems that he was using the bullwhip in a way that I don't recall seeing in the trilogy before.

His wrist had the loop at the bottom of the bullwhip on it like a bracelet, presumably so that it wouldn't fall off easily, much like how one would loop that string on a digital camera around their wrist when on vacation.

Out of curiousity, did he use this 'method' in the trilogy? And does anyone here practice with it like that? Since I'm new to all this, I wonder if it is bad for that loop, or if that's what the loop was meant for in the first place?

Also, I noticed that on my Raiders' T-shirt of Indy swinging a whip "When there's a whip, there's a way", his whip is missing that loop...

[McFly]

Out of curiousity, did he use this 'method' in the trilogy? And does anyone here practice with it like that? Since I'm new to all this, I wonder if it is bad for that loop, or if that's what the loop was meant for in the first place?

Yes, that's what the loop is meant for - actually its technical name IS "wrist loop" (if I'm not mistaken), and although Indy never used his before (it should be there in all the pictures, but maybe in some art, some photoshopper took it out), it's not too far a stretch to think he might have used it once or twice, especially if he wasn't in a rush to get it out, like in Cairo.

I personally don't practice with it on, but when somebody else uses my whip (like a friend, or somebody who just doesn't know what they're doing yet), I have them wear it so that the whip doesn't fly across the yard.

Shane

[Boggstandard]

In my personal experience, the "wrist loop" is not engaged around the wrist when one is cracking the whip. The loop is used to hang the whip, when not in use, from a hook or peg.

Early on, as a newby cracker, I did wrap the loop around my wrist, but I found it uncomfortable and restrictive, and it seemed to impede keeping the ball/knot/knob of the handle in my palm.

[thefish]

If you don't want to lose your whip, hold it tighter.... ;-)

Bogg's right. The so-called "Wrist loop" is put there to hang the whip from, (presumably if the whip got wet out on a cattle drive, you could hang it up by the loop to dry, so it wouldn't kink up.)

Other than that, there's really no use practical use for the wrist loop. It's a flat braid that is attached, (at least how David Morgan does it,) by stapling it to the lead tape, wrapping it with sinew, (or some other binding,) and then braiding the heel knot over it. So if Indy WERE to let go of the whip, the wrist strap wouldn't hold his weight, (and in Raiders when he hitches the strap of the whip underneath the truck, I just cringe.)

It gets in the way if you slip it over your wrist, (Hollywood stuntman and legendary whip coach, Alex Green, just cuts them off if he ends up with a whip that has one.)

Now, I have come up with some uses for them. In the ill-fated screen rendition of Rich Hoffman's "Symposium of Justice," we wrote in several bits with the wrist strap:

In one scene of the teaser trailer, our hero Cliffhanger, is saving some poor shlub from a bunch of bad guys, (I played the shlub, incidently. ) He does a sidearm wrap around the victim and yanks the guy over to him. As the guy comes barreling toward him, he drops the whip handle, (attached to his wrist by the strap,) grabs him by the shirt as he comes whizzing by, pulls him up to his face, growls "Run!" lets him go, and grabs the handle and splits open the face of an oncoming bad guy.

I had written a scene in the penultimate fight sequence in the script where Cliffhanger is fighting a guy armed with knives, (to have been played by knife-throwing guru, 10 time world champion, and all around nice...but DANGROUS...guy, Joe Darrah.) The guy closes range on Cliffhanger, and the hero is forced to do close range fighting armed only with whips.

Rather than drop the whips, he flips them over and uses the handles like escrima, (See Tom Meadows' book "The Filipino Fighting Whip" for inspiration. We were also using long-handled Jacka whips.) Those thin straps on Jacka whips worked really well for this scene as "mini stockwhips" themselves, allowing Cliffhanger not only to strike with the handle, but also rake at the eyes of his opponent with the handle straps.

So, there's little practical use for the darn things beyond hanging them up. They're more decorative than anything. But if you're creative, you can come up with some interesting, if highly impractical uses.

Just my two cents. And some nostalgia. My kingdom for a budget!

-Dan

[McFly]

Whoops! Nevermind me!

Shane

[thefish]

Not just you Shane. Most people look at them and go "Wrist loop." I tend to refer to them as a wrist loop, as people then know what you're talking about, and it's easier than saying "The-Hang-It-Up-To-Dry-If-It-Gets-Wet" loop.

In fact, I've heard whip makers refer to them as wrist loops, and since they made the whip, they know what they put it there for, (one hopes! ;-) ) so I guess on some it IS a wrist loop.

I actually sometimes use them if I'm performing and need my hand for something else, but don't want to just drop the whip and take valuable "audience-attention-span" time to go over and pick it back up. But most of the time, I just let the loop hang there. They usually don't even get in the way for me, (I know some folks who do fast and fancy cracking say it gets in the way. I can see that, but I don't have that problem. Not boasting there. Anything but. I don't have the skill to do fast fancy cracking.)

I guess it's a "Multi-Purpose Loop." ;-)

-Dan

[hollywood1340]

Delongis just ties 'em off. I do the same. It's going to be an exciting movie for whip action, that's for darn sure!

[Vegeta]

in Raiders when he hitches the strap of the whip underneath the truck, I just cringe.)

Actually .......He wedges the entire bottom part of the handle in between parts of the frame and suspension......I think it's between a leafspring pack and something else.

[WeeMadHamish]

Curious. Bernie of EM Brand puts the loop around his wrist in his basic cracking video.

Guess I always thought it was there so you wouldn't accidentally drop it on horseback and lose it under the hooves of milling cattle.

[thefish]

Actually .......He wedges the entire bottom part of the handle in between parts of the frame and suspension......I think it's between a leafspring pack and something else.

MAN! That's even Worse!

Poor whip....



As I said, I've read from several sources about the loop not being put there as a wrist loop. But who is to say they are right? The problem with most of the history of whips and whip making, design and construction is that it mostly exists as oral history. Trying to pin down exactly who started the whole "Strap on the knot" thing and why is difficult, and any solid commentary we'd get on the wheres and whens would be apocryphal at best.

It's true that some people use them around their wrists, and it is practical that a drover would do that. Though the type of whip we're talking about here is Australian in design, and the stockwhip was, (and still is,) more prevalent in Australia, as the long stock on it kept the whip away from the horse, and the thong would hang over the shoulder with the stock across the chest when not in use, (not quite as safe and secure as carrying it with the strap, but hey...)

According to most of the research I've done, the type of bullwhip that we know today as an "Australian Bullwhip." Didn't really become common until World War I, when American GI's stationed in Australia saw the Aussie stockwhips, and said, "can you do us one constructed like that, but with an integral handle," like the American "Woody" bullwhips with the Texas-style fall.

The Australians had not really thought to make them that way, (and who can blame them? The stockwhip is FAR more efficient and accurate a tool than the bullwhip,) but sure they would! Why not? A yank and his money are soon parted.

So if you got a hankerin' to use it around your wrist, do it. As stated, it has it's uses. It can also be a royal pain in the rump. I put a couple knots in the strap on my Jacka recently, didn't like it, and took them out. I've also considered doing and Alex Green and just cutting it off as well, but I can't bring myself to do it as I SOMETIMES actually find the thing useful, and having it there doesn't get in my way. So, I dunno.

I'd honestly be interested if anyone has any info to either refute or back up what I've found, as I'm very interested in how we got to the "Indy" design that so common in the world today.

All the best!

-Dan

[Canuck Digger]

As I understand it, wrist loops were innitially designed for shorter whips than a 10 foot bullwhip, whereby a cowboy might either hang the whip from his wrist while on horseback or from the pommel of his horse's saddle. They are still very common on ridding crops, where perhaps they originated? If one wanted to hang the whip from a hook using this loop, then it could certainly be used it that way, this is what I do when I apply leather conditionner to my whips. Some whips even have the wrist loop coming out from the ring knot instead of the butt of the handle, and in some way that's a more convenient design, though in my opinion not as handsome. The problem with having the wrist loop around your wrist if you're on horseback is the whip getting tangled in a fence or under the horse's hooves and yanking the arm out from the ridder... Which is why some whipmakers just don't put them on. I prefer to have it on for the ease of greasing the whip, but for cracking, not having the loop makes for a smoother pommel to throw the whip from. I've made both and like them for different reasons, so once more it's a matter of taste.

[JMObi]

Aussies don't use wrist loops in cracking for just that reason - too dangerous if the whip got caught while riding. As far as I know most cracking is done solely from horseback in Australia in sheep and cattle stations. I've done a lot of yard work - yarding and branding and whips were never used in the yard itself. Just poly pipes and things like that if anything is needed. Aussie yards are designed in such a way as that the cattle generally flow through them fairly naturally once they're in there. I agree that a stockwhip is great to use from the saddle, but then again I could easily use an Indy whip from horseback too, so I suppose it's a matter of tradition. It would simply be more tiring to use an Indy whip from a saddle, as you'd have to extend your arm all the time you use it, plus you do have to put more of a swing into them. Don't want to tap the typical station horse on the rump with a stockwhip thong! Look out if you do.

I was once asked to make a short handle bullwhip for one of the workers, but he was a butcher and wanted one for the minimal amount of mustering he did. I didn't end up having time to make the bullwhip for him though. He wanted a wrist loop on it too.

I always prefer bullwhips to crack because of the Indy influence! So much more fun in my opinion. I tend to like more compact things, and an Indy whip coils up into a smaller object than a stockwhip. I don't use the wrist loop, though if you wanted to I see no problem with that, as long as your not riding a horse at the same time.

I'd also point out another reason Aussies don't generally use bullwhips. Carrying the whip is a major factor. The guys I worked with were required by the boss to carry and use a whip. Some Aussies scoff at the need to carry and use whips but they don't understand that on some stations they are absolutely indispensable. You cannot achieve a thing without them as the cattle will ignore you. So you have to get used to carrying a whip, along with holding the reins, all day long from sunup to sundown, 7 days a week. That's a long time to have a whip in your hands. A stockwhip is a lighter whip, with a narrower thong. Most of the time they are actually held coiled in the right hand, along with holding the reins.

Holding the handle over the shoulder is only done when cattle are behaving themselves. Most of the time on the two stations I worked on you simply couldn't do this, as it was frequently necessary to go cantering or galloping after cattle trying to 'take off'. So people habitually held the whip coiled up in the hand. The keeper knots formed a convenient bend to hold the whip at. If you left the handle over the shoulder it would fall off and cause a bother if the horse suddenly took off in response to a beast. It all depends where you are working. I've had people (Australians) laugh at me and say, "Oh, you don't need whips to muster cattle!". These kind folk do not know what they are talking about.

[ANZAC_1915]

HF also mentioned re-learning a new style based on the new coach (Delongis).... can anyone tell from the trailers we've seen what HF is doing differently with the whip?

[McFly]

Not from the trailers, but from pictures and having studied with Anthony [Delongis], I can tell he's got really nice aim. The Delongis style is a nice rolling style, where you hold the whip... well... "upside down," basically, so that if you do a standard gypsy / forward / circus crack, or even just hold the whip out in front of you, you can make a loop. Basically you crack it against the natural curve, so that it loops easier when you crack it, and you have to do less work.

Some people say it's worse for the thong transition and is more damaging to the whip, but I asked Anthony about it and he disagreed and said it made the whip more efficient. I trust him, and I like the style. It helps you get nicer aim, which is better for camera work because it looks "cooler" seeing the whip loop and go arrow straight like he does it. Anthony's style is very very nice - almost like a martial art. I expect Indy's form will be much better in this movie, and his whipwork will probably be more precise, unless he's in a huge hurry.

Slightly, slightly off topic; I'm working on my Delongis form, and if you've seen my youtube videos, I think I'm much, much better now. But I'll keep working, and I'll make a new video.

Shane