Wested scenes in TOD

Ozraptor · Post by **Ozraptor** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:36 am

Who knows which scenes in Temple of Doom, if any, used Wested jackets leftover from Raiders? I've heard a few people assert this, but can't pick any likely candidates. The main jacket, as far as I know, is a Cooper (flightsuits? US Wings?).

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:36 pm

Definitely no Flightsuits or US Wings in TOD.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:37 pm

Sorry, Adam, but it WAS a Cooper (U. S.Wings) jacket in production use in TofD, and _ has all the documentation to prove it.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:42 pm

I knew that Coopers were used and I knew that US Wings used the Cooper patterns, but I didn’t think that they were “US Wings” jackets. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:43 pm

Same thing. The Cooper name was on the jacket, but it was completely bankrolled by Wings and out of their factory. Cooper hadn't made a jacket in quite a while. When Cooper went under, Wings just picked up the pieces and kept making the jackets under their name brand.

That's why it says 'since 1985' on their tags. They had been in existance for years, but didn't come out under their own name until the year after TofD was released. That's also why they came out of the film as the official Lucasfilm licensee of the jacket here in the U. S.

As bad as folks hate it and fight it, it was a Wings/Cooper jacket that was being worn by Ford in TofD, and there's no getting around it.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:53 pm

OK. It makes sense. I knew that they had the original patterns, but I thought that they inherited them. I didn’t realize that “Wings” was involved this far back. Cheers

PS- I hope the jacket rewrite comes soon. This sort of thing needs to become a thing of the past. Cheers

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:02 pm

Michaelson wrote:
As bad as folks hate it and fight it, it was a Wings/Cooper jacket that was being worn by Ford in TofD, and there's no getting around it.

Regards! Michaelson

Absolutely, I agree 100%. I don’t care about fairy tales. The truth is far more interesting. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:06 pm

It's sure taken a long time to unravel a bunch of them, let me tell you!

Regards! Michaelson

Weston Freeman · Post by **Weston Freeman** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:36 pm

Rundquist wrote:Absolutely, I agree 100%. I don’t care about fairy tales. The truth is far more interesting. Cheers

You should know by now that COW is about fact, not truth.

Indywannabe · Post by **Indywannabe** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:47 am

So was it just 1 jacket Ford wore troughout the whole movie!?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:02 am

The jacket appears only a few times in TOD and those are not action scenes.

I don't doubt about Cooper but weren't we discussing in an earlier thread some very close similarities that the TOD jacket has with the jacket worn by Terry Leonard in the truck scene? Mostly, how the pleats are ending at the bottom of the jacket?

Also, isn't there a possibility that the Cooper supplied the jackets but they were not used because someone from the costume dept might have said "Oh I don't like how these Cooper jackets look let's use that good'ol leftover jacket from the Raiders film.

I don't know, I am just making an assumption here. If _ knows please cast some light.

Also, anybody knows if the Cooper jacket was cowhide?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:01 pm

PLATON wrote:The jacket appears only a few times in TOD and those are not action scenes.

I don't doubt about Cooper but weren't we discussing in an earlier thread some very close similarities that the TOD jacket has with the jacket worn by Terry Leonard in the truck scene? Mostly, how the pleats are ending at the bottom of the jacket?

Also, isn't there a possibility that the Cooper supplied the jackets but they were not used because someone from the costume dept might have said "Oh I don't like how these Cooper jackets look let's use that good'ol leftover jacket from the Raiders film.

I don't know, I am just making an assumption here. If _ knows please cast some light.

Also, anybody knows if the Cooper jacket was cowhide?

Sometimes I remember things wrong, but I try not to assume anything. (_ does know and he already posted about it. I doubt he’s interested in repeating the same thread). They were bound by contract to use the Cooper (US Wings) jacket in the film. I’m sure that David Hack could probably even tell you which scenes the jacket was used in. Now everyone don’t go emailing David Hack that question. He would have answered that question by now if he as going to. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:06 pm

The truck dragging jacket was a Western Costume 'Wilson' jacket, and not a Wested. That's why the pleats were closed. Once again, according to the documented research of _. Those never did make it to the TofD site. There were supposed to be left over Wested jackets on site, but whether or not they were used is anyone's guess at this time.

PLATON is right about the jacket only appearing a few times in TofD, as it had the standard nylon type lining, and Ford was about to cook when he was wearing it. Once those placement shots were made using the jacket and the contract points agreed to as being fulfilled by the attending lawyers on set, the jackets were put aside and Ford did the rest of the film without it.

In my opinion, this was about the time we can point to as Ford becoming a major player in Hollywood. He made Raiders, saluted the flag, and did what he was pretty much told. He was quoted as saying 'anyone who would put a leather jacket etc. on someone in the jungle should be shot!', but soldiered on wearing the outfit in the desert and jungle scenes.
By TofD, he had enough clout, once the contract was filled, he told them he was NOT going to die of heat exhaustion, and refused to wear the jackets supplied. They didn't push it, so a true 'star' was born....one with the power to make decisions regarding his own existance in the industry. A true milestone, in my opinion.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:12 pm

The Coopers ended up being the “some French company” jackets that HF didn’t like because they were too hot. Again, it’ll be great when that rewrite hits the main site.

PS- Ironically the nylon lining was what I really didn’t like about my US Wings jacket. I had it replaced. Of course that jacket was old and I don’t think that Wings has used that lining material in years. In fact my jacket was an exchange because the first jacket didn’t fit and the first jacket didn’t have that lining. I think that nylon lining was on it’s way out 7 or 8 years ago.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:15 pm

That's how myths get started. The truth of the matter....there WAS no French jacket company. Never was.

The lawyers that were hired by Cooper/Wings to physically go to Sri Lanka and physically hand the jackets to the costumer, see Ford physically put on the jacket and wear it in all the production scenes, and sign off on the contract was a French law firm. Once that contract was filled, they left the scene. Noel Howard has been the source of that story, and all he could remember was he got the jacket from a French firm. That's true, but it was a French LAW firm, NOT a jacket company.

THAT'S why no has ever found the 'French jacket company' all these years. There never WAS one. Everyone jumped to that conclusion (me included

) based on what Noel Howard said....and so another myth/legend unravels.

Regards! Michaelson

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:19 pm

It's funny, how for years USWings/Cooper were always looked down on by the majority of Gearheads as not a "Wested," or not a Screen Accurate Jacket (not discounting or discrediting Wested in any way, shape, or form)... when the truth of the matter is is that it WAS a Screen Accurate, Screen Used pattern!

Yes, the patterns (_ can remember exactly what) were tweaked in a few areas, but basically a USWings/Cooper IS a ToD Jacket.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:22 pm

Personally, I would not be the least bit surprised if the jackets we saw used in the closed set shots like the plane were Wested jackets. They looked more tailored. Watch the scene where Indy is scrambling around looking for the parachutes. His jacket appears the same as the jacket length seen in Raiders. JMO, though.

When he's walking down the path toward the village, though, it's definitely a longer jacket than the one we saw in the plane. Same situation in the elephant ride sequence.
Those jacket(s) used in the location shooting in Sri Lanka were definitely the Cooper/Wings jackets. That fact is based on the documentation.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:09 pm

Michaelson,
Thanks for the very interesting information.
I suppose that the lawyers went there to make sure that the jackets were worn by HF in the movie probably because Cooper would want to advertise their jackets as the jacket worn by IJ in TOD.

Right? Otherwise, why would a supplier care for more, if he got paid for the jackets he supplied?

Well later Cooper went under (when exactly?) and it didn't happen... Right?

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:12 pm

PLATON wrote:Well later Cooper went under (when exactly?) and it didn't happen... Right?

I think Michaelson answered this mostly already:

Michaelson wrote:The Cooper name was on the jacket, but it was completely bankrolled by Wings and out of their factory. Cooper hadn't made a jacket in quite a while. When Cooper went under, Wings just picked up the pieces and kept making the jackets under their name brand.

That's why it says 'since 1985' on their tags. They had been in existance for years, but didn't come out under their own name until the year after TofD was released. That's also why they came out of the film as the official Lucasfilm licensee of the jacket here in the U. S.

As bad as folks hate it and fight it, it was a Wings/Cooper jacket that was being worn by Ford in TofD, and there's no getting around it.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:16 pm

Yep, that post just about covers it I believe.

Correct on the reason the lawyers were on site....to make sure that HF DID in fact wear the jacket(s) in production, and as it related to licensing after the fact, as Cooper/Wings were the licenced consumer jacket makers after the film was released.

Regards! Michaelson

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:08 pm

I thought it was pronounced Les Couper as it was a French company that provided the ToD jackets.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:13 pm

Probably in the French paperwork....

Regards! Michaelson

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:26 pm

So why again did the wings pattern change from what they now offer? The back panel is all wrong.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:58 pm

They did what Wested did. Wings kept trying to make changes to the pattern to please the fans, even reversing the strap from rearward pull to forward pull (which was wrong, but they did it because 'we' asked them too, as that's what we were getting on our Wested jackets), until they said 'ENOUGH!' and stopped everything in it's tracks. I don't think anything has changed on the pattern in the past 10 years or more, and right or wrong, it's still one of their hottest selling jackets.

The Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) has had a standing order for the lambskin Wings Indy jacket for years, so thousands are sold (and that's no exaggeration) to just that group as a service jacket. We're the only ones consumed by the 'pattern being incorrect'. Apparently it doesn't matter to the masses who are buying these jackets, and believe me, there are folks who could care less who Indiana Jones is. They just like this jacket from Wings.

Regards! Michaelson

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:12 pm

Oh.....Thanks.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:30 am

Hey Michaelson,
Any chances that HF got overheated in the filming of TOD not because of the satin lining but because of the jacket being cowhide? Could it be cowhide?

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:59 am

Hi Michaelson,

What do the TVA do? How are those jackets used?

Regards

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:05 am

Michaelson wrote:They did what Wested did. Wings kept trying to make changes to the pattern to please the fans, even reversing the strap from rearward pull to forward pull (which was wrong, but they did it because 'we' asked them too, as that's what we were getting on our Wested jackets), until they said 'ENOUGH!' and stopped everything in it's tracks. I don't think anything has changed on the pattern in the past 10 years or more, and right or wrong, it's still one of their hottest selling jackets.

Regards! Michaelson

Why did they not inform us (maybe they couldn't?) "Hey guys, this is the jacket just how it appears in TOD, because we made that one, so enjoy..."

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:56 am

PLATON, it was the lining that was the heat factor for Ford. (Yet another reason I'm happy to see that Wings decided to try a cotton lining recently)

You're welcome, Cowboy!

CM, the TVA is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in terms of electrical power production on the east side of the U.S. It was formed by act of Congress during the 1930's to harness the power of rivers with dams, in order to produce electricity for areas that had never had electricity before. It was also help stop the annual spring floods that those same rivers produced. They're still producing that power for us, and as big as ever.

The jackets are given to their field personnel (linemen) to wear when on outside duty.

As to telling us anything.....they have never been believed all these years by this hobby, even when they've told the true history of their involvement with the films, so why bother now? If their business hinged on just our business, I'm sure they'd be much more vocal in their marketing, but like I said, we are not. That said, though, for some reason Sgt. Hack has always had a soft spot for us since the start of this site, as we HAVE tried to tell folks the facts regarding their involvement. That's why we get first hand info on new items, and in some situations (like the current limited edition jacket), being a member of COW has it advantages if David's aware.

Ok....'nuff rambling. I need more coffee.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:57 pm

Who complained to Wings that the jacket wasn't right and were asking for mods? Could they not see that it was the TOD jacket Wings was offering?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:19 pm

PLATON wrote:Who complained to Wings that the jacket wasn't right and were asking for mods? Could they not see that it was the TOD jacket Wings was offering?

...that would be me....as i wanted a unique indyish non-screen-accurate jacket........because i'm not in the SA camp.......nope {crickets chirping}

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:33 pm

The Wings redesign topic brings up another point I was thinking about the other day. My 1989 Cooper had a collar done more like LC. Actually in retrospect it looks more like a CS collar in that it was pointy. But it had the collar stand like the LC jacket, which did not extend all the way to the storm flap, like the Raiders and TOD jackets (that I can make out). Coopers (US Wings) then went to a collar configuration more like Raiders & TOD. Maybe that was one of the Cooper revisions? My question is what was the Cooper pattern originally? I doubt anyone but Dave Hack can answer that question. Was the 89’ Cooper jacket changed from the original specs to look more like an LC? I know that they flipped the side tabs (which had nothing to do with LC). Or maybe their side tabs were always flipped, even back to the TOD era? Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:37 pm

Good questions, and I think you're right on target that David would be the only one who could answer them.

As to the straps, I REMEMBER when those got flipped, as folks were critisizing them for not matching the Wested at the time, when all along they never WERE a pull forward strap...but they flipped them anyway just to make us happy, even though it was totally incorrect.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:48 pm

Michaelson wrote:Good questions, and I think you're right on target that David would be the only one who could answer them.

As to the straps, I REMEMBER when those got flipped, as folks were critisizing them for not matching the Wested at the time, when all along they never WERE a pull forward strap...but they flipped them anyway just to make us happy, even though it was totally incorrect.

Regards! Michaelson

I doubt that David Hack would be interested (since it would only be twisting the knife), but a detailed account of all the Wings pattern changes would be great for the jacket rewrite. Then of course he would have to deal with fans pleading for him to change the jacket back to the original pattern. For that reason alone it makes no sense for him to "spill the beans", so to speak. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:25 pm

You got it!

Regards! Michaelson

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:39 pm

Thanks everyone - this has been a very interesting thread.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:18 pm

PLATON wrote:Who complained to Wings that the jacket wasn't right and were asking for mods? Could they not see that it was the TOD jacket Wings was offering?

To answer your question, PLATON, this was going on when the only game in town was Indyfan.com. There WAS no Indygear, and very few photographs posted on the net. Folks were relying on what they saw in books, and what they were receiving from Wested leather and comparing it to the Wings jacket. They knew Wested made the Raiders jacket, and so it was assumed the Wings jacket should look exactly the same, not knowing (or believing at the time) that another manufacturer could have possibly created a jacket for the second film.

So, in order to keep the fans happy, Wings made the changes, and after Wings kept getting requests for change after change, David Hack said 'that's it', and everything stopped.

I'm sure Peter at Wested wishes he had done the same thing LONG ago.

The fact that Wings is installing cotton lining in the jacket for us now is HUGE to those of us who have been involved with this old Indy jacket company all these years.

Hope that answers that for you.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:52 pm

Michaelson wrote:
PLATON wrote:Who complained to Wings that the jacket wasn't right and were asking for mods? Could they not see that it was the TOD jacket Wings was offering?

So, in order to keep the fans happy, Wings made the changes, and after Wings kept getting requests for change after change, David Hack said 'that's it', and everything stopped.

I'm sure Peter at Wested wishes he had done the same thing LONG ago.

Regards! Michaelson

This will probably get me lynched around here, but I agree. Peter sort of “dug his own grave” with regards to jacket changes to suit fans. They love him for it, but I’m sure that he’s had more than a few headaches because of it. Gibson & Barnes gave up trying to revise the Expedition pretty quickly as well. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:55 am

Just shows that our vendors DO read our pages! Just got this email this morning:

For the Record .. Neil Cooper and US Wings Inc. I.E. David D. Hack supplied 200 Indiana Jones Jackets to George W. Lucas Jr. Chairman Lucasfilm Ltd. 5858 Lucas Valley Road Nicasio, CA 94946 for the first Indy Movie Raiders Ark and those 200 Jackets did not sell well... David D. Hack and Neil Cooper again Supplied Mr. Lucas Indy Jackets for the Temple of Doom.... and at that Filming Mr. Harrison Ford wore Our Jacket.

Our Attorney John A. Tarantino wrote Mr. Lucas in 2002 and ask that if there was a future Indy Movie US Wings would be the Manufacture of the Indy Jackets... Our Attorney www.apslaw.com wrote Mr. George W. Lucas Jr. again in April 4,2007 at that time Paul from Lucas would get back with us... They did two months later and Said that the License had already been given out.

You may post this information so there is no Misunderstandings about the Role David D. Hack and Neil Cooper played in the Making of the First Indy Jackets and Yes to this date US Wings Inc. still supplies Walt Disney with two styles of the Indiana jackets.. one the Indy Goat made by US Wings Inc. and 2nd is our Vintage Cowhide Indy Jacket that looks like to the 1V Jacket.. But Ours does not have the two snaps like in the 1V Movie.. Fact.. Our Pattern is over 20 years old.
Sincerely,

David D. Hack

CEO

Regards! Michaelson

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:52 am

Michaelson wrote:...when the only game in town was Indyfan.com. There WAS no Indygear, and very few photographs posted on the net. Folks were relying on what they saw in books, and what they were receiving from Wested leather and comparing it to the Wings jacket.

Not to mention that we didn't have the clarity of the films on DVD to study until 2003!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:07 am

Boy, ain't THAT the truth!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:02 am

I'm just glad the US Wings Jackets are finally being given their due around here.

I've owned two of them total, I still own my Goatskin (it's great), and will have another one with the Crystal Skull Leather in the next 30 days. They're great jackets, AND a piece of Indy Gear history to boot, being an "original" vendor so to speak, like Wested, David Morgan, Herbert Johnson, Alden, etc.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:33 pm

_ wrote: All of the leftovers from Leather Concessionaires were removed from the wardrobe, and the Coopers were put in. The killer is that the product placement clause called for "certified removal and destruction" of all items replaced. Generally that means they were both shredded and incinerated...

The French-thing came from Noel... He was right - just that they did not make them...

You can't help wondering then if anyone took home an original jacket as a prize...

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:44 pm

_ wrote:Very good memories, gents... Just a few points to fine tune...

The product placement agency in LA used a legal firm to "enforce/implement" their agreements. This was handled for both Stetson and Coopers through the same produccement agency, whose law firm used their offices in Paris (who handled Europe, Middle East, and Africa). Sri Lanka fell inside their geography...

All of the leftovers from Leather Concessionaires were removed from the wardrobe, and the Coopers were put in. The killer is that the product placement clause called for "certified removal and destruction" of all items replaced. Generally that means they were both shredded and incinerated...

The French-thing came from Noel... He was right - just that they did not make them...

That reminds me of how they destroyed all the perfectly good aircraft after WW2. Now the ones that are still around are considered treasures. Again I'd like to say how great it is to have real information. Cheers

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:14 pm

If the Fan Club jacket from the early 90's was a Cooper, then there is a great one one up on Everyone's Beloved Auction Yard right now.

When I saw it I thought, "Wow, with some distressing that would look exactly like a ToD jacket." Small pockets and everything...

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:18 pm

You mean

eBAY?????

You can say it, you just can't post specific auction links TO it.

Regard! Michaelson

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:01 pm

Oh, way to drag my subtlety out into the street and bludgeon it with a hammer!

eBAY! There. I said it. How therapeutic.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:02 pm

We take no prisoners here!

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Holt** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Michaelson wrote:You mean

eBAY?????

You can say it, you just can't post specific auction links TO it.

Regard! Michaelson

Ozraptor · Post by **Ozraptor** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:19 am

You know, I just flicked through TOD, and every single scene seems to have the same Cooper's jacket. I don't think Wested makes a single appearance!