For those of us with significant others...

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:35 pm

Yeah, financial responsibility when it involves two or more people, is not about manliness or being a control freak or being a totally separate individual. It is about communication and cooperation. Take my advice, I'm not using it.

PyramidBlaster · Post by **PyramidBlaster** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:42 pm

Perhaps I should interject quite the appropriate phrase here:

"It is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission." -Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

This could easily be the credo of the modern married man. Ironically enough, the quote is attributed to a woman...

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:44 pm

I'm not at all talking about going nuts and just wildly spending on what you wish without telling your spouse. Everyone has expenses, kids, etc. and you should already know if you can or cannot afford said item. Instead of saying,"Honey, can I buy this item?", I would say, "I'm going to buy this item." If there is a problem with the finances that I wasn't aware of then she can step in and say so. But to have to ask permission like a child is not cool. Wouldn't you agree?

I have a kid too and a mortgage and other things to worry about as everybody does. I understand that part of it. You know how much you make, should know how much the wife makes, how much your monthly bills are and by that token, how much you can spend on any items you want without having to ask if you can or cannot go ahead and make an adult decission.

Of course, there should never be any hiding of items or lying about it as is common when people have spouses who expect to be asked permission ahead of time. If you want it and know you can afford it, then buy it. See, you already know if you can or can't, should or shouldn't. If you don't then maybe you do need a woman who acts like a mother instead of a wife. This comment is not directed at anyone, just in general.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:54 pm

There is no problem with telling your spouse ahead of time that you are planning on purchasing something. There have been times that something is being planned that we are not factoring in. Agent 5 is right. Asking permission is something that should not have to be done. In many cases there is a double standard. The woman can buy what she likes but the man gets his head chopped off if he buys anything. This is not always true. But when it is, the woman does not ask permission. I am lucky not to be in that siutation. But many are. No need to ask permission, but communication is good.

Dave

IndianaSolo · Post by **IndianaSolo** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:02 pm

In that sense Agent I agree with you 100% as adults we are entitled to make decisions so long as we let them know, but how ti deal with the guilt trips is :evil: Unfortunatly my wife is unusual in that she doesn't do shopping, and if she does she would look for the best deal and only if she needs it. Even if I went to buy her a Coach bag she would ask why I would spend so much on something she could get for $40. She however would spend $$ for a first class plane ticket, even when I tell her in most places it's not worth it. How many women do you know that are like that?

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:08 pm

The best thing to do is to factor such frivolities (and face it, that's what they are folks) into your budgets and set it aside. That way you and your spouse/partner/clone know that there's money free for it that won't be taken away from necessities.

Fortunately I'm blessed with a wife that's just as eccentric as me and puts up with my geeky tendencies. I have a Del Carpio whip that's on its way to me and I think she's just as interested in seeing it as I am.

Wraith1031 · Post by **Wraith1031** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:21 pm

IndianaSolo wrote:

This isn't about being "man" enough it's about being responsible. I don't live by myself and I may have a child on the way. If I can't be financially responsible we may go broke. I should ask my spouse if it’s ok because our success depends on a working partnership that greatly involves communication. If this was a business arrangement you wouldn’t want your partner to withhold information on your financial situation. While I may want the hat, there may be something more important that would benefit us better.
How each couple deal with this may be different and that’s what this post was about. “It takes strong man to stand by himself, but it takes an even stronger man to stand with others”

Well said, and very true.

indiana lurch · Post by **indiana lurch** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:29 pm

Hey

When I want to buy something expensive say like the wested jacket..I usually start by showing it to my wife and gauge the response and if she says no then I start asking her how much her dance lessons are, oh and the volleyball leagues and the baseball leagues in the summer..that usually gives me about $500 to work with...but I only do it once in a while because I few backs I bought a complete darth vader costume without her knowing until she opened my visa bill by accident...wow, that was painful

IL

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:47 pm

Another point is that by asking your spouse if you are allowed to buy an item, not only may the response be based upon finances, but personal influence of the item as well. In short, if he/she thinks the item you want is stupid, they may try to talk you out of the purchase altogether, not fully understanding that it may mean alot to you. In the end it may come down to whether or not he/she likes the item you want to purchase instead of what will make you happy, affordable or not. Then what do you do? It then becomes an uphill battle and you may not be able to get what you want simply because someone else thinks you shouldn't have it.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:06 pm

Well, actually you are now starting to communicate and not be a manly, control freak that says, "I am buying this because I want it and I can do whatever I want to do, and you have no say in how I spend my money as long as I pay my share of the bills. Any questions? Good! Now, let's go in the bedroom so I can recharge my manliness!"

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:19 pm

Agent5, I'm sorry. I should have put a bunch of smilie faces in their as that was way over the top and I was trying to be funny and make a point, anyway. I just can't help it, when the testosterone starts flowing and guys start trying to prove their manliness, I always start to laugh.

I guess it is just nature working it's course. Even with birds, the male is more colorful and will do dances and fluff it's feathers trying to attract the female bird.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:23 pm

Well, actually you are now starting to communicate and not be a manly, control freak that says, "I am buying this because I want it and I can do whatever I want to do, and you have no say in how I spend my money as long as I pay my share of the bills.

Not sure who you're aiming this at, but I think it's safe to say thats not what I'm talking about. As I said, it is a two way thing. It's not about proving manliness, it goes the same way for the woman as well.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:34 pm

I laugh, laugh, laugh at grown men who have to ask their wifes 'permission' to buy something. Then I feel sadness for those men because they are not man enough to know whether or not they can or cannot afford an item they want. They need to ask the wife if it's okay to do it as they would their mother if they were 9 years old and wanted candy at the store.

The only reason that I mentioned you with the manly thing was this quote.

It doesn't take a man to look at a bank account balance to see if there is money in it. With online banking, you don't even have to be able to add or subtract.

The manly thing comes in from feeling superior and not having to ask, as that would make a manly person insecure.

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:46 pm

If there's that much contention and/or lack of understanding, then I think the relationship has bigger problems than whether it's okay to buy your next fedora.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:00 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:If there's that much contention and/or lack of understanding, then I think the relationship has bigger problems than whether it's okay to buy your next fedora.

Exactly. It has nothing to do with being manly or not. A man and wife are just discussing their financial situation and trying to determine wether their desires and budget both allow one person or the other to be happy with a purchase decision. Nothing to laugh at the guy about.

I am very competitive in sports, or at least I was when I was younger. Some people might say that it is my call of nature to dominate other males and by winning the competition, and thus make myself more attractive to the female. Maybe that is the driving force of nature behind it, but all I know is that I love sports. And, I especially like it when I win.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:15 pm

I guess what I am trying to say, is that it makes me laugh when someone thinks that I am not being manly, if I discuss a significant purchase decision and our family budget with my wife.

I think of being manly more like when I am on a hockey rink with another guy and he is trying to beat me and I physically intimidate him and force him to lose the desire to win. That is manly. Or, if attacked, to defend oneself. That is manly. When having a discussion with my wife, I don't feel the need to be manly, we are partners in this life.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:53 pm

To discuss is one thing...the right thing. To have to ask permission as if one person makes the rules at any one time, is absurd.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:56 pm

Ask, discuss? I think you are just arguing semantics.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:08 pm

As I said previously...

Instead of saying,"Honey, can I buy this item?", I would say, "I'm going to buy this item." If there is a problem with the finances that I wasn't aware of then she can step in and say so. But to have to ask permission like a child is not cool.

They are two completely separate things. No sematics here. Discussing is not asking permission. I tried my best to differentiate between the two.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:09 pm

No, I don't think so Bufflehead. To discuss whether or not an item should be purchased is one thing. In a discussion, both you and your wife may have different points of view. That is normal. But discussing the issue usually help in her understanding that she doesn't need to understand why you are purchasing a $600 fedora, just that you really want it and it would make you happy. Asking permission to purchase an item then puts you in a different situation, one where you don't have a say, where her opinion (and of course the other way around as well) weighs more than your own. They should both be equal. Discussion allows each person to voice theor opinion. Should your wife have a say in what you buy? Of course. I know I would be upset if my fiance went out and spent $600 on anything without discussing it with me first. That is not to say that I would tell her no, just that communication makes everything easier.

Dave

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:18 pm

That is where the controlling nature of the person comes in that feels he must say, "I am going to buy this item." as opposed to "Can I buy this item."

The wording in the first case is an example of someone controlling the decision and not allowing the other person to have a say. It makes them feel more secure in themselves to tell the other person and not to ask the other person, at least not in the presence of other men, who may laugh at their lack of manliness.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:22 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:I guess what I am trying to say, is that it makes me laugh when someone thinks that I am not being manly, if I discuss a significant purchase decision and our family budget with my wife.

I think of being manly more like when I am on a hockey rink with another guy and he is trying to beat me and I physically intimidate him and force him to lose the desire to win. That is manly. Or, if attacked, to defend oneself. That is manly. When having a discussion with my wife, I don't feel the need to be manly, we are partners in this life.

Well said, Buff! I totally agree with this definition, and practice it as well. I've lost count of the times my wife has saved me and the family budget from a knee jerk purchase I had on radar at any particular time.

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:24 pm

It has nothing to do with "manliness." I am going to make sure that I can afford an item before I talk to my fiance about it. I usually just ask her if she is ok with me spending that money. If she is not then I ask her why and we talk about it. It has nothing to do with being in control. Both people in the relationship should have equal amount of control, not one person having more than the ther. That goes for men too.

Dave

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:27 pm

To add: Of course if she brings up an issue with finances I will defer my purchase until it is better suited. But to outright ask permission I think is wrong.

Dave

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:33 pm

As pointed out once again, it has nothing to do with manliness or control, but communication and overall common sense. You can already pretty much figure out yourself if a purchase is a bit too much or stretching your budget, in which case I can understand discussing with your spouse about it. But to have to discuss every single purchase you feel like making is just obsurd.
You are your own individual, do not forget. Part of a team, yes, but you should also be able to use your own common sense and good judgement to make that call sometimes whether or not you should be purchasing something in the first place. If you can't make those decisions on your own, then it probably would be best to have someone to talk to about it before you do it. It has nothing to do with being manly or anything like that at all.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:39 pm

agent5 wrote:I laugh, laugh, laugh at grown men who have to ask their wifes 'permission' to buy something. Then I feel sadness for those men because they are not man enough to know whether or not they can or cannot afford an item they want. They need to ask the wife if it's okay to do it as they would their mother if they were 9 years old and wanted candy at the store.

Apparently you do think that manliness enters into this discussion, you were the one that brought it up.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:46 pm

I think what Agent5 meant is that he is not grown up enough or adult enough. Manliness is not a factor. Not he himself but in general.

Dave

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:56 pm

When someone laughs, and laughs, and laughs at someone because he is not man enough and he is acting like a nine year old, that person is calling into question someone else's manhood. Pure and simple.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:00 pm

That was just my opinion. I cannot speak for Agent5, only what I think. I have never contested that this is a question of manliness, only that communication is the answer, not asking permission. We don't have to agree. We are our own individuals with our own ways of dealing with out families. That is simply what I think.

Dave

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:04 pm

Honestly, I think it comes down to one thing...girls just aren't that cool for the most part.

I don't really think it's about the money. I assume that most of you are pretty responsible in your gear collecting, and so if you take money out of the equation, it becomes simply a matter of perspective.

In my experience the girls that I have shown my gear too pretty much laugh. It's not the laugh of "you're an idiot" but more so a laugh of, "I don't understand"!

I also used to work at a hobby shop, and I got a pretty good view of how most women typically react to the purchase of "collectibles". I even had many come up to me in a frantic Christmas rush going, "I don't understand all the @#$%, why does he need this @#$%!?"

What I have seen is that many girls tend to casually belittle collectors because they seem incapable of understanding the connection to the stuff they're buying. There are probably a bunch of psychological reasons behind this (idea of practicality, ect.), but I think it comes down to the reason that if girls don't understand how it benefits them, they tend to attack it.

"Are you really going to wear that hat on our hike?", "What up, "Indy"!"

The list goes on of little shots and jabs. Even when I sat down with a few of my ex's and explained the reasons behind what I collected they sat there with a sarcastic face seemingly unconvinced.

So, my solution at this point is to ask this question the second that I start getting hassled about my gear, "hmmm, so tell me about your hobbies again!"

It's a pretty good bet that they'll have none. Sure (if your older and have a family) they may complain they don't have time for one, or (if you're younger), they may list off some stereotypical uninspired thing that most girls do cause it takes little skill or effort (bead making, cross stitch, listening to music).

From that point, I basically keep politely asking them to explain their hobby's to me until they realize that they really don't understand. Sure they tend to get cranky because they feel kinda stupid, but I find they typically leave me alone about it for a while.

I hate that I have had to spend time in my life defending something that gives me joy and playing little stupid games to explain myself or get them off my tail, but I think until girls are raised with the expectation that they will be encouraged to imagine (look at Saturday morning cartoon commercials...girls still get the shopping/cooking/Barbie Dream home toys) (Boys get the building, adventure, imagination, science toys), I think it'll be a lost cause.

Yes! Mid day rant!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:11 pm

Yes, I do think it a sign of weakness to have to literally ask your spouses permission for something you should be able to make up your own mind about. Now, thats a very broad statement and its meant to be so because there are many factors that are going to determine that behavior.

I did lose two friends to this kind of mentality, though. Not only did they share it about purchases, but about every aspect of their lives. One even went so far as to ask his wife, and I quote, "Is it okay if I go over to Jason's house?" To which she said no and he just accepted. They weren't busy, had no plans and simply because his wife wanted him home, he stayed. Now, once in a while I can see the wife saying she wants him to stay home, but he asks her permission every time and her word is the bottom line. I see this as a very weak. Very weak indeed.

Maybe Buff, the term I'm looking for is HUMAN BEING. Stand up and be a human being for yourself. Why have someone you constantly have to answer to unless that is exactly how you want it? And I understand thats how some guys need it. It did cost me two friends, though. We just lost track because it was all up to the wife. Friends, events, everything. I see this as a sign of human weakness. We could still be friends, but they let their wives dictate their lives. I just don't see that as living. This, of course, is only my opinion.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:20 pm

agent5 wrote:One even went so far as to ask his wife, and I quote, "Is it okay if I go over to Jason's house?" To which she said no and he just accepted. They weren't busy, had no plans and simply because his wife wanted him home, he stayed.

Did she have on red high heels and garters when she said this?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:22 pm

He mighta been working on his manliness.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:28 pm

I don't know how I can add anything else to this discussion.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:45 pm

I find it all very interesting, Buff. In the end it's all about what works best for you. As I said, some guys need someone to keep them in line and they're comfortable that way. Not most, but some. I just wish it didn't cost me my friends.

Argonaut · Post by **Argonaut** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:51 pm

I wanted to add something wise to this discussion, but I can't think of anything.

Just know that I think both of you are right to a degree. Beyond that my opinion is a bit fuzzy. Conflicting thoughts. Gear collecting can seem very impractical and wasteful in a pure survival sense, but on the other hand, it's something that I enjoy and it brings out the inner child in me.

Logically, gear collecting is a ridiculous, frivolous hobby. But it's something that brings me joy, so it can't be entirely bad.

Let me just say that I have never had a girlfriend, so my wisdom can't totally be trusted in this arena. I just think that if someone couldn't be tolerant of this hobby, then they are overly intolerant.

Men and women are so different. We both are forced to compromise and tolerate so many things about each other, and for some it is worth it. But how much you are willing to compromise is a matter of personal choice.

What I can't understand, is something like Agent 5 mentioned. I wouldn't consider anyone a friend if they thought my hobby was insignificant and silly, and used it as an excuse to end a friendship. It leads me to question what kind of friends they were in the first place.

EDIT: That wasn't so hard. I guess I thought of something.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:00 pm

This discussion has wandered all over the road like a drunken man (as this particular discussion ALWAYS tends to do), so it's probably time to ring down the curtain, before folks start losing their tempers. We're approaching that stage shortly, if things tend to continue in the same direction as it has the last upteen times this question comes up. This is a good place to bring it to a good stopping place. Everyone is still in a good mood.

I hope you got the answer to your question what folks do when it comes to purchasing a piece of expensive gear. Not sure what the heck it had to do with losing friends, or manliness, but heck, it always gets tossed on the table when this comes up.

Ok, this table is closed. Move along.

Regards! Michaelson