My theory about the Herbert Johnson mystery...

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:43 am

Hello friends,

With all of this talk about the Herbert Johnson hat, and the question of its authenticity, and the fact that this section of the board is quite dead as of late. I felt the urge to post my theory again.

DISCLAIMER: This is only a theory, it does not reflect the views of the staff members or its affiliates, this is only an opinion and should be respected as such.

Before I ever discovered the discussion board I had a theory that the Herbert Johnson fedora was indeed accurate.

I am afraid the original quality and craftsmanship of materials is no longer available, but the block, brim flange and ribbon width have remained the same.

I believe the key is to eliminate the complication on this forum and focus on what is real.

We know that Harrison Ford's head is an extremely long oval, and it has been confirmed that the fedoras ordered for Raiders by the costumer were made 7 1/4 REGULAR oval, meaning that this hat would be uncomfortable on his Above average head length. Not only would the fedora be uncomfortable, it would stretch out causing the normally tapered crown to untaper and "mushroom" out, this would also cause the brim to create that natural curl and swoop that we so admire and cherish.

I believe the sizing issue was corrected during pre production of Last Crusade.

To prove this I asked Mr. Swales when Herbert Johnson made their hats available available in multiple shape blocks. He told me 1987.

This would be an accurate timeline for pre-production of Last Crusade.

This is also why the Borsalino felts used for the HJ in Last Crusade were tapered, and lacking the definitive swoop to the brim.

As far as felt goes, in my opinion, this does not matter as far as taper and brim definition. Small details would lack with a thicker stronger felt, but the base, the brim and crown would remain the same on any hat.

In all honesty, the Raiders fedora was a fluke.

So yes, it was under our noses this entire time. Swales has the accurate block and the correct materials, although the felt today is sup-par.

Now, does this mean by purchasing a regular oval 7 1/4 (or your size) that you will achieve the Raiders look? Absolutely not.

This was done on celluloid. And film is not a perfect demonstration of reality, it can easily be warped.

The crown height and ribbon width CAN NOT be taken for face value. This is why specs have hurt us more than help us. We have taken specs as gospel to follow, when in reality. No, one person's specs, are exactly the same.

The reason the HJ worked for Ford was because it was a movie prop that wasn't properly sized, and through the process of wear on set, the hat stretched out to fit.

When the hat is resting on top of his head it is not untapered, and the brim swoop is not there, this is because it is not stretching out.

Now, as a fan how can we achieve this? There are several ways. Having experts handle it, and decide through their expert opinion what is the accurate specs for that person, or the hat turn theory, but the facts remain.

What Ford wore doesn't mean we can wear it too.

So you have to ask yourself. What are your specs, and for that matter, have specs helped you or hurt you? We have the Raiders hat, dozens of them are sitting in a hat shop in England, does that mean those hats will give us the Raiders look comfortably?

I am not answering this, but leaving it up to you.

Sincerest Regards,

Blaine

P.S. Please do not take this as an insult to HJ, just because you are not willing to wear a regular oval 7 1/4 doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy with an HJ. As I said above this is stated only as opinion. A theory not backed up by proof.
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Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:02 pm

Excellent work Dan, very impressive!

I have a regular 7 1/2 PB, and my head's always been oval shapped, like you stated with Ford's head, and I've always noticed that the hat looks different on my head then just sitting around.

If you take any hat, just a regular fedora, not an oval one, and strech it from front to back outward, you will get the exact Raiders look with the 'swoop' in the brim, it never fails! So an oval hat wouldn't solve it, but the regular size hat would, so you see, Dan must be right! Excellent dedective work Dan!

~Aaron

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:29 pm

Yes, but I do state that this isn't the way to go if you want comfort. Unfortunately the accurate way is not the comfortable way. However, as we well know there are excellent alternatives.

Sincerest Regards,

Daniel

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:22 pm

Well, I can't believe that Ford walked out of 13 Burlington St. with a fedora that was too tight. It may not have been a long oval, but surely it was comfortable. I more or less agree with your theory, but nothing is set in stone.
With a crown height high enough, and a block that is straight-sided, the center dent will cause reverse taper. A tight front pinch will straighten and start a taper back from a side view. If the felt was the thin pliable sort that some think it was, you don't really have to turn the hat off center to get the curl, swoop and bulge. You can just shape it this way.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:24 pm

Interesting. I agree with Dakota in that Ford would have never left the shop with an ill fitting hat. He has to wear this thing for hours and hours, some of the time spent in heat. Mike's HJ was an oval, and it was purchased after 1987. I do think the Raiders fedora was a regular oval, and this is where part of the look comes from. I just watched the films again last night, trying to picture the LC fedora as having the same block, to no avail. To complicate matters, Mike's HJ looked identical to the Raiders fedora from behind, and not that similiar to the LC. If you are wondering why it only looked like the raiders fedora from behind, it was due to shrinkage on the front of the hat where it had been styled with the pinch and bashes. It had that ugly front slant that the early Kepplers were plagued with. But, to my eye, if this hat had of been new, and unbashed, it is a dead ringer for the Raiders fedora. I think somehow, Mike ended up with a Raiders fedora. His liner was different than the other offerings from HJ. Different color on the insignia, and different size lettering. The color of Mike's HJ is what I always imagined the Raiders color to be. Swales' letter stating that the Indy fedora was 6 inches tall(odd, since they use the metric system), seems to discredit the later HJ's as being the same block. They are around 5 1/2 to my understanding. I think some of our fans in the UK, or even MK needs to go and see Mr. Swales before he dies and try to get an accurate account. Surely if you appealed to his good side, and used the King's english, he just might give us the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Until then, I still sorta feel like the Raiders fedora and the LC fedora are totally different hats. regards, Fedora

JohnNdy · Post by **JohnNdy** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:50 pm

Hmmm. After viewing 3thoubucks's posts regarding the turned hat theory I tend to agree with Dan's theory. Following the twisted hat arguement, it is to say that turning a hat causes some distortion in the way the hat is worn, which gives it the undeniable Raiders look. The head is now trying to fit into the hat in an orientation which was originally unintended. The result is that the hat flexes to accomodate the head, with the inverse taper, and even more obvious, with the perfect tension in the brim which causes a crisp swoop and curl. I personally believe that the turned hat pics look more "Raiders" than any hat I have seen, but this is not to say that I necessarily think the hat in the film was turned. I do, however, think that the hat flexed to accomodate Fords long oval head, as per Dan's argument.

Everyone seems to be arguing that this would in some way be heinously uncomfortable, and therefore would not be plausible given the particularity of HJ and the film industry itself. From personal experience, I know this not to be the case.

After I saw the turned hat pics, I desperately wanted to turn one of my hats and rebash it, to get that perfect look. Unfortunately, all my hats have a personal dimensional cut, so turning it would not work. Because of this, I built my own hat block from plaster, 6 inches tall, slightly domed at the top. I made sure that this block was a PERFECT CIRCLE...even though my head is slightly oval, as is the opening on my Fed Deluxe (the victim I chose to reblock). I reblocked the hat, turning the opening on the hat into a near perfect circle. After the reblock process, I put the hat on my head, and it flexed to fit...the inverse taper appeared, the brim transformed - it was the raiders hat! What was more was that it had that bulbous, hear-shaped look (similar to the publicity still of Ford in the Raven Bar). I had achieved results similar to hat turning by doing precisely what Dan has proposed.

At any rate, the hat has held this look for months and I have never once felt ANY discomfort at all, when compared to my Regular fed, whose opening is ovular (after having worn it so much). The distortion does not even need to be that drastic, just a slight flex will give the look, and I feel that this was precisely the case with the Raiders hat. The hat simply flexes from circle to oval. People wear elastic basball caps all the time, which do the same thing, and most of them don't come home with head aches. We're not talking a vice-grip here...but rather thin felt gently flexing from circle to oval. I simply argue that the discomfort factor of a circular hat accomodating an ovular head is minimal if not non-existent - of course this is just my experience...

-John

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:22 pm

I assume then, that you think every hat that Ford wore in the film, was turned? Or perhaps only one hat? There are several different "looks" in the film. If the raiders hat was 6, and the LC was 5 1/2, do you think it was the same block? I am curious. :

Fedora

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:29 pm

I am following this string, and I find it interesting. Mostly, because the coals are stirring again

. As some of you may know, I am a follower of 3Kbucks idea of turning the hat. However, I do not do it all the time, because sometimes I really pay attention to my hat when I set it on my head. At these times, I get a no-nonsense, straight-forward LC or Tod appearance to my hat. But when I am in a hurry, or squashing it down on my head in the Oklahoma wind, it sometimes sets om ny head a bit cock-eyed. Imagine my surprise when I see my reflection, and I am suddenly wearing a RoTLA hat

. Slightly off center for me gives me that look, and straight on gives me the other. All I am saying is get a hat, shape it like ya want it, slam it on your head, and look good wearing it. No more of this

, and more of this $\:D/$ ! Cheers! O_J

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:36 am

I am glad the fedora world is alive again.

Yes I failed to mention that I believed the felt was of a different stock (Per the Brazilian manufacturer) but I believe the LC and Raiders hat block and crown heigth are EXACTLY the same (of course the brim is slightly different etc)

3K$ explained it by saying that with the Raiders untapered crown it appears to be taller,

now the question is

EVEN IF IT WAS 6 INCHES DOES THIS MEAN IT IS RIGHT FOR YOU???? THAT IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO STRESS

and as for the turned theory. It makes for an excellent Raiders hat, but I do not believe this was intended. Ford did not delicately place the fedora on his head.

Sincerest Regards,

Daniel the "Resurrector!"

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:36 am

It's just my theory that either HF or perhaps someone else wanted the hat to be a little snug, at least for a few scenes where there would be alot of action and a good chance of it falling off, and we all know THAT (almost) never happens to Indy!

Others have tried to debunk this by saying that he would have been wearing some sort of band on his head that they use commonly in the film industry to prevent the hat from flying off. If I remember correctly I was told this trick was used for a very long time, especially in old Westerns because the hero can never lose his hat. I think that if HF didn't want the silly band on his head knowing temps during filming would be well over 100 degrees he'd opt to have the hat a little snug. It makes sense to me. So, I think it was a little tight and cocked to the side.

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Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:52 am

A dear friend of mine, who is a member on this board. I won't name any names ah haha hah *cough ah MAGNUM *cough. Sorry about that...

Magnum brought up that perhaps the heat could have caused the sweat band to shrink and tighten.

Definitely something to think about. Thank you ahh.... unnamed... for the interesting extension to this theory.

Sincerest Regards,

Dan

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:58 am

Hope my post wasn't seen as negatively argumentative. That wasn't my intention. This stuff is intensely interesting to me and I love talking, and thinkin' about it. I am really interested in the Raiders fedora, and why it looks differently, if the same block is used. To me, the difference is more than just turning it askew. The question is, were identical blocks used? I want to know, for sure. I don't think it was, but my sanity depends upon finding out.

And, there are just too many differing tales of "the fedora". This is a passion of mine, and if I can't chew it over here, at a gear site, then where?

Regarding turning the hat. To me the only thing the turning does is distort the brim a bit, reminencent of the streets of Cairo brim, especially if you droop the brim down a bit. That reverse taper that is talked about happens when you apply the top bash to a hat that is stove pipe straight all the way around. Most hat blocks have a slant, of various degrees on the front and back. When you bash this type of block, the "slant" straightens up. Bash a straight blocked hat, and you get reverse taper. Also, I twisted one of my hats, and it looked great, but not from all angles. I like em' to look good, coming or going.

Seems like Indy's looked good, coming or going.

Seriously, turning my hat, only looks good from certain angles. OK, this is my theory on "the hat." The Raiders fedora was a different block. Straighter sides, less rounded on top. It was a thinner felt. It had a little taller open crown. The dimensional cut varied from hat to hat. The block was an oval, but very compact unlike 99 per cent of oval blocks. This is very important! Every oval hat that I have owned has been really wide across the front, to where it dwarfed my face. That's what I see when I look at the Raiders fedora. The trouble has always been finding a hat with this block along with the 1.7 mm. felt. Fedora

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:21 am

I am not taking any of your comments as arguementive.

I love discussing this too, and this is why we frequent this website.

Fedora, I absolutely love to talk about this, and you're what makes this board exciting, your passion to learn, and you're regarded as a master. That is a unique quality, never give that up.

I am convinced that it is the same block. Believe me sizing has a tremendous impact on the visual look of the brim, also camera lenses can add or take away the dimensions of an object. Trust me!

Sincerest Regards,

Dan

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:18 pm

Fedora wrote: The Raiders fedora was a different block. Straighter sides, less rounded on top. It was a thinner felt. It had a little taller open crown. The dimensional cut varied from hat to hat. The block was an oval, but very compact unlike 99 per cent of oval blocks. This is very important! Every oval hat that I have owned has been really wide across the front, to where it dwarfed my face. That's what I see when I look at the Raiders fedora. The trouble has always been finding a hat with this block along with the 1.7 mm. felt. Fedora

What are you going to do if the real Raiders hat shows up one day? Go back to bed.

PS- Dan made some good points, many of which he expressed to me a while back when I used to go nuts about the Raiders hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:44 pm

I think when a real Raiders hat shows up, all of our theories will be put to rest, and I look forward to that day.

And, indeed, I may very well go to bed, put Raiders in the VCR, and gloat.

Fedora

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:41 pm

Yes and I will be right. BWAAA

I think by the time a Raiders hat gets into the hands of the fans, the kids of that generation will have never heard of a VCR.

Sincerest Regards,

Daniel

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:09 pm

And if you are Rick, I will be the first to pat you on the back.

Now, if we could just get HJ to start offering the current hats again, while Mr. Swales is still able to cut the brim for us. Fedora

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:31 pm

"I laugh in the face of a straight edge" - Direct quote from Mr. Swales

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:36 pm

And I would wager that he does. He just eyeballs it and whacks it off. Bet he has had years of experience.

Fedora

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:39 pm

"Fieldwork"

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:02 am

Fedora wrote:I assume then, that you think every hat that Ford wore in the film, was turned? Or perhaps only one hat? There are several different "looks" in the film. If the raiders hat was 6, and the LC was 5 1/2, do you think it was the same block? I am curious. : Fedora

Only one of the hats in Raiders is "special" - the one HF wore for most of the movie. I've analyzed loads of pics and the movie (sometimes going frame by frame) just to get to know the true nature of the hat and... OK, enough of this nonsense, here's what I think:
The first (brown) hat used in the movie is the one we see in the dock scene. It has some taper because of the way it is bashed. That hat can also be seen in the Chachapoyan temple (scenes from rolling under the stone door till the end of the boulder scene). This "segmentation" is probably the result of the sequence in which the movie was shot.
The second hat is first seen when Indy swings across the gap in the Peruvian temple. This is the hat we later see in the Raven bar, the Well of Souls and all the Cairo scenes. It does look different from scene to scene, it looks more battered in Cairo, but don't let that fool you. That hat evolved during the making of the picture. Try and compare the "idol grab fedora" with the Cairo fedora and you'll notice that it's the same crown bash and that the brim has the same indentations.
The third fedora is the one used in the opening jungle scene and temple exterior. There's a thread on it with lots of pics, so I won't go into detail.
OK, that's basically it. There is also the dusty and cobweb-covered fedora in the temple scene with Belloq - I'm not sure if this one was previously used or not, and the fedora on Dennis Muren's head, which was definitely screen used - there are sweat stains on the ribbon. This one was probably the first hat used in the movie.

As for crown height and Mr. Swales claiming it was 6", it all depends how he measures. Fedora, I remember you had some measurement issues with Optimo, because they measured crowns differently than most of us here, so maybe it's the same with Swales?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:12 am

Actually, Optimo has been the only hatter that measured differently.

Gary White, Bobby Miller, and Joe JR. all understood the crown height issue when I talked to them. Perhaps it is a cowboy way of measuring?

Fedora

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:35 am

Could it be that Ford's head is shaped differently, besides the fact that the prop department had there way with the hat before it hit the set, giving it a beating and such.

when I started wearing hats (i think back when I was around 17), I was a German Oval and did not know it (bit of a rectangle shaped head, long oval with squared off forehead and back). My brims usually had the raiders dynamic curve, low front and back and high on the sides, I liked it, my crowns were usually straight up on the sides or bowed out, no taper.

Problem was I had a dip on the right front of the brim unless I wore my hats off center. this I later found, was because my right front temple is a bit thicker than my left. I have my hatters correct for this now.

Joseph C. Brandstetter

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:07 pm

Wow Dan, this is one long thread, thus I haven't read all of the posts, only the first few and the last one by Mattdeckard. So I'll respond to those with possible ideas to stir the pot (or posts) more.

Well, I can't believe that Ford walked out of 13 Burlington St. with a fedora that was too tight.

What if this is the lampshade method in work, but no lampshade. We all know Ford was sweating and that there was extreme heat on location...could the hat have fit at the HJ shop but once on location, it shrunk? That seems plausible to me...something I hadn't really thought about before, but definitely possible and likely IMO.

Could it be that Ford's head is shaped differently,

Now there's an idea. What if he didn't turn the hat and his head is just not symmetrical giving the fedora that sought after over the eye swoop. Yeah, I know it's crazy, but what if.

cliffhanger · Post by **cliffhanger** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:23 pm

Here's my take.

I agree with Mattdeckard, that Ford's head is an extremely long oval, and makes the hat get that "swoosh" that is so desired. Take any fedora and put your thumbs at the "front" of the hat and the "back" of the hat and pull....BAM! Streets of Cairo.

So, not to dispute 3K's theory, but to back it up in one way. Turning the hat is THE way to get that look, as most people don't have an elogated head. That's just IMO.

Peace,
Cliffhanger

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:06 pm

All that I know is if you take a hat and pull fore and aft, you get the swoop. You also get a tapered hat on the front and back. His hat did not have this taper. Also, it his hat had of been too small, the front and back would taper the same way. Perhaps he just removed the sweatband, tightened the ribbon up so it would still fit, and with him having more hat at the sweatband area, his long oval head didn't cause the normal taper. That would explain the sweat stains on the ribbon as well. regards, Fedora

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:27 pm

I'm still new to this forum, so I haven't heard about taking out the sweat band. But I think the hat would still shape the same without the band . . . though I have not tried this myself. As for the sweat stains. I have had 2 modern HJs and have sweated through both of them as well as a Gary white, creating stains on the ribbon which I have had to clean off with water . . . back when I wore those hats daily.

When I get a chance, I'll have to show you how my hats look on my German oval head.

Joseph C. Brandstetter

My theory about the Herbert Johnson mystery...

My theory about the Herbert Johnson mystery...

the hat

I agree...kinda