Having second (and third) thoughts about hide choice

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:52 am

I have been leaning towards a horsehide Wested, but lately I've been contemplating a hide that is not only durable but will distress naturally and can be worn most of the year.

I believe that part of the allure of the jacket is the character it develops over years of wear. I've read that the lamb distresses well naturally but is not as durable, and I've also read that the horsehide hardly shows any wear but is extremely durable.

Also, because the lamb is a thinner hide, it can be worn most of the year, while the horsehide seems like it might only be worn during colder weather.

So, is there a hide that is thin, drapes, and distresses like lamb, but is durable like horsehide?

(Is this the holy grail of hides?)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:37 am

Lambskin is durable enough, unless you wanna go crawling over barb wires.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:58 am

PLATON wrote:Lambskin is durable enough, unless you wanna go crawling over barb wires.

......

Holt

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:47 pm

Lambskin tears....easily. All it will take is for you to be unlucky while passing a doorknob or something. If you are concerned with durability, do not get lamb. Cheers

PS- Maybe you have a wardrobe person that follows you around. Most of us don't.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:17 pm

Horsehide IS nice thou. I think we all agreed in a thread a long time ago, if Indy was "real" - his jacket would probably have been Horsehide, due to A2's being that at the time, plus being tough as nails which he would be looking for in a jacket.

However, my Seal Chrome Goat from Flightsuits is about as close to Lamb in thickness as Goat can be while still being "Goat" and tough as nails. My US Wings Goat is a much thicker hide and better in winter. Cowhide is even warmer.

Yeah, Lamb is thin, and delicate like the others have said. That's why it's so easy to distress for movies. AND that's why Raiders had 10 jackets in it for the filming.

My advise, if you want an Indy look (first 3 movies) and something that will last, and not have to be too delicate with, go with Goat. Or Cowhide for the CS look.

morganswift · Post by **morganswift** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:24 pm

I'm not sure about the goat (having never had a goat leather jacket) but cowhide will last and distress and not be too hot in warmer weather.

I have both a lambskin Wested and a Horse hide jacket. The lambskin is soft, supple, light and drapes well (like in the movies), the horsehide is very thick and heavy. It's all horse for courses - forgive the pun!

Alex

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Lambskin tears....easily. All it will take is for you to be unlucky while passing a doorknob or something. If you are concerned with durability, do not get lamb. Cheers

It will be torn at the doorknob but that's no reason not to buy it. Your shirt will get torn at the doorknob too but that's no reason not to wear a shirt. Likewise it's not a reason to wear a 10oz cotton shirt that will not get torn at the doorknob.

Take under consideration that probably the biggest percentage of jackets sold worldwide are made from lamb.

Also, I thought people were going for the looks here. If one is just looking to buy a durable jacket he can buy some other non-indy jacket.

I owned a cowhide indy and it draped like no drape at all.

Horsehide is nice but it will never naturally distress so will never get the look. A-2 jackets were made of vegetable tanned horsehide semi anilined hand painted leathers and they did distress naturally quite easily. Wested HH is a quite different story and you will have hard time distressing it even if you use sandpaper. It will get distressed but the result will not be good looking. Trust me.

Just my opinion.

morganswift · Post by **morganswift** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:40 pm

I agree with PLATON. For accuracy it has to be lambskin. It's the only leather that will allow the free range of movement that Indy has. All other leathers are restrictive to some degree or other...Get two - lambskin for wearing away from doorknobs and HH for when you're surrounded by them!

Alex

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:41 pm

PLATON wrote:
Lambskin tears....easily. All it will take is for you to be unlucky while passing a doorknob or something. If you are concerned with durability, do not get lamb. Cheers
It will be torn at the doorknob but that's no reason not to buy it. Your shirt will get torn at the doorknob too but that's no reason not to wear a shirt. Likewise it's not a reason to wear a 10oz cotton shirt that will not get torn at the doorknob.

Take under consideration that probably the biggest percentage of jackets sold worldwide are made from lamb.

Also, I thought people were going for the looks here. If one is just looking to buy a durable jacket he can buy some other non-indy jacket.

I owned a cowhide indy and it draped like no drape at all.

Horsehide is nice but it will never naturally distress so will never get the look. A-2 jackets were made of vegetable tanned horsehide semi anilined hand painted leathers and they did distress naturally quite easily. Wested HH is a quite different story and you will have hard time distressing it even if you use sandpaper. It will get distressed but the result will not be good looking. Trust me.

Just my opinion.

Platon, you assume that everyone thinks as you do. In the original post, durability is one of afrayedknot’s concerns. Where’d you get your stats on lamb being the highest percentage of leather jackets sold worldwide? It’s important to many people here that their Indiana Jones jackets be tough. Don’t assume.

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:57 pm

Goat is probably the best choice for a jakcet that is a happy medium... It is supple, drapes well, and is tough as nails IMO.

C3

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:03 pm

I still have not said where I get my information from...

Anyway, FYI I can supply lambtouch cowhide if anyone wants.
It has the strength and durability of cowhide, drapes and feels like lamb.

I am taking orders by PM. You will need about 4.5 square meters for a medium jacket.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:08 pm

That is good stuff, in my opinion. My Wested 'Fedora' jacket is made from lambtouch cowhide, and has served me very well.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:15 pm

PLATON wrote:I still have not said where I get my information from...

I don’t care where your info comes from. It doesn’t sound right is my point.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:18 pm

That is good stuff, in my opinion. My Wested 'Fedora' jacket is made from lambtouch cowhide, and has served me very well.

Regards! Michaelson

This thread worths nothing without pics!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:20 pm

Regards! Michaelson

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:34 pm

I'm guessing Wested doesn't carry lambtouch cowhide.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:36 pm

No. The last time I spoke to Peter about it, all he had was black, which was perfect for what I was doing at the time. Not sure if he ever bought anymore or not, but as of a year or so ago, black was it.

Regards! Michaelson

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:44 pm

Crud!

So, Platon, how much for that lambtouch cowhide?

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:46 pm

Like I said, that's old news. Drop Peter or Gemma a line and ask if they may have picked up any more.

Regards! Michaelson

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:54 pm

Gotcha! Thanks, Michaelson!

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:42 pm

The lambskin holds up better than you might think! I've had mine for 10 years, wore it until the lining disintegrated, and it is just fine. It's been snagged, scuffed, scratched, and just taken a beating all the way around and has not been damaged. There was a time when the lambskin Wested Raiders jacket was touted as a highly durable jacket. A search will show you that some of these have been around for years, worn daily. Some of us have had different experiences, some good some bad, but I think that's just the random nature of the world we live in. The Wested lamb just looks great to me, and isn't exactly tissue paper.

Weston

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:14 pm

The lambskin holds up better than you might think! I've had mine for 10 years, wore it until the lining disintegrated, and it is just fine. It's been snagged, scuffed, scratched, and just taken a beating all the way around and has not been damaged. There was a time when the lambskin Wested Raiders jacket was touted as a highly durable jacket. A search will show you that some of these have been around for years, worn daily. Some of us have had different experiences, some good some bad, but I think that's just the random nature of the world we live in. The Wested lamb just looks great to me, and isn't exactly tissue paper.

Weston

The lambskin Wested uses is thick. It's not the thin lambskin usually found in men's jackets.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:52 pm

I *kind of* agree with Platon. Wested's lamb (with the exception of their veg-tanned) tend to be thicker than most commercial fashion lamb leather jackets, though still relatively thin for an Indy jacket to get that screen-accurate-ish drape.

And likewise, I do agree with Platon about the jacket's durability. Lamb's fragility is overrated. To get one torn on a doorkob... that would have to be one heck of a doorknob. Unless you wind it around the doorknob and then TRY to pull it away, I just don't see it tearing. In fact, the only way I can see it being torn on a door is if you close the door on the jacket and dash away.

I have had a few Lamb jackets by Wested, and have caught them on people (or vice versa) and knobs and shelves and the typical things an urban warrior encounters, and they're all still intact. Like Platon said, if your shirt can handle it, chances are your lamb jacket will too.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:56 am

Castor Dioscuri wrote:I *kind of* agree with Platon. Wested's lamb (with the exception of their veg-tanned) tend to be thicker than most commercial fashion lamb leather jackets, though still relatively thin for an Indy jacket to get that screen-accurate-ish drape.

And likewise, I do agree with Platon about the jacket's durability. Lamb's fragility is overrated. To get one torn on a doorkob... that would have to be one heck of a doorknob. Unless you wind it around the doorknob and then TRY to pull it away, I just don't see it tearing. In fact, the only way I can see it being torn on a door is if you close the door on the jacket and dash away.

I have had a few Lamb jackets by Wested, and have caught them on people (or vice versa) and knobs and shelves and the typical things an urban warrior encounters, and they're all still intact. Like Platon said, if your shirt can handle it, chances are your lamb jacket will too.

Yeah, lamb will be stronger than most fabrics. It is leather after all, just not as bombproof as goat or HH.

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:47 am

I've read that today's lambskin doesn't compare to the lambskin used for ROTLA. Is goat the closest hide to the lambskin that was used for the movie jackets?

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:18 pm

afrayedknot, the people who supplied the lambskin for the films closed shop after Raiders. I think Peter's lambskin he offers now is very close to in color to what was offered then. Horsehide I hear is a bit thicker than the lamb, but still has the drape. I am not sure what this new goat feels and looks like. I think Holt has got one of those, he has a post on here showing his goat jacket down a few posts. The lambskin is not going to tear unless your around sharp objects, barbed wire or your jacket get caught in the car or something. It can hold up being hit against the wall and basically anything a shirt can take. Wested does use a thicker lambskin, so again it has got some durability. The hide of choice is yours, I like the lambskin I have got now, looks great. So your choice, lambskin, horsehide or goat. Hopefully you order your jacket soon. Good luck on your order.

IndianaChris

Steve27752 · Post by **Steve27752** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:33 pm

When i get round to ordering a jacket; it will be a Gibson & Barnes goat skin Expedition...................................................And I live in the U.K!
Steve

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:41 pm

Steve27752 wrote:When i get round to ordering a jacket; it will be a Gibson & Barnes goat skin Expedition...................................................And I live in the U.K!
Steve

Get in the car and take a jaunt round the M25. It's crazy not to.

Post by **Holt** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:24 pm

I got a new hide goat...it's great!!
it felt really heavy and stiff in the beginning but after some wearing it has been broken in...it feels lighter now...

after it has been broken in and dressed with some leather oil it has that look of the jacket been really drie and dull in some spots and other spots moist...

I like that look very much,reminds me of a blend between raiders distressing and LC distressing..

the hide is so tuff it wont take a scratch even...it feels very durable and has a long lasting feeling to it

I say if you want a jacket with good Indy drape and still very duarable then go for the goat...you wont regret it

bests
Holt

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:33 pm

Well, I considered the goat, but several members of the forum have attested to the fact that goat does not distress naturally, at least not for many, many years. And I'm all about distressing naturally. I'd like my jacket to wear with age and show some character and I'm afraid that will not happen with the goat or horsehide. So, ultimately, I believe I will be going with the lambskin (or lambtouch cowhide, if it ever becomes available).

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:27 pm

afrayedknot wrote:Well, I considered the goat, but several members of the forum have attested to the fact that goat does not distress naturally, at least not for many, many years. And I'm all about distressing naturally. I'd like my jacket to wear with age and show some character and I'm afraid that will not happen with the goat or horsehide. So, ultimately, I believe I will be going with the lambskin (or lambtouch cowhide, if it ever becomes available).

Just remember, all of the movie jackets were artificially aged. Lambskin is fine to own. I've enjoyed having them, especially in the hotter weather. And in about five years, you'll have a distressed looking jacket. But remember, it may look the part of an adventurer’s jacket, but it will never play the part of an adventure’s jacket. It’s too wimpy a skin.

The whole image of a distressed leather jacket comes mostly from the WW2 A-2 pilot’s jacket. Those jackets became pilot’s and other people’s “second skins”. Those guys wore those jackets hard for the following reasons. First off, they were free (issued to them or obtained by some “other” method). Second, they just didn’t know if they were going to be around tomorrow. Both the Army Airforce and the Navy pilot’s jackets were made from horsehide, goatskin, and to a lesser degree cowhide. How long do you think a lambskin jacket would have lasted under those conditions?

After the war it’s easy to see why servicemen were so attached to their jackets and continued to wear them. These jackets also became available to the general public for about 5 bucks a pop. That helped the “legend” along as well.

Of course, maybe none of his matters to you personally. You might just want a cool movie jacket. That’s cool too. Cheers

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:30 pm

Rundquist - If I could have it my way, I'd have a durable jacket that draped well and aged well naturally. It seems you can't have it both ways.

If I go with a durable jacket that drapes well like the horsehide and goat, I give up natural distressing. If I go with a jacket that drapes well and ages well naturally, like the lambskin, I give up durability.

To me, owning a durable jacket that doesn't distress well naturally is like owning a pair of jeans that never fades or frays - no character.

I guess I just don't want to own a jacket that looks brand new after ten years of continuous wear. What good is having an adventurer's jacket if it doesn't look like it's been on any adventures?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:43 pm

afrayedknot wrote:Rundquist - If I could have it my way, I'd have a durable jacket that draped well and aged well naturally. It seems you can't have it both ways.

If I go with a durable jacket that drapes well like the horsehide and goat, I give up natural distressing. If I go with a jacket that drapes well and ages well naturally, like the lambskin, I give up durability.

To me, owning a durable jacket that doesn't distress well naturally is like owning a pair of jeans that never fades or frays - no character.

I guess I just don't want to own a jacket that looks brand new after ten years of continuous wear. What good is having an adventurer's jacket if it doesn't look like it's been on any adventures?

The reason that most leathers don’t “age” is because of modern tanning and dyeing techniques. Most though can be artificially aged and the jacket will maintain it’s structural integrity. Lamb ages quickly because it is generally a weak leather. The top layer just starts to wear off. Some here say that it will hold up. And it might, but not as well as other leathers. I would hate for you to get the jacket just the way you want it and have it give out on you.

Here’s an artificially distressed goatskin Expedition. Pay no attention to the jacket details as this was one of the original prototypes.

http://images114.fotki.com/v658/photos/ ... 016-vi.jpg
http://images114.fotki.com/v657/photos/ ... 020-vi.jpg

Not only does it look the part, it also plays the part. Now, I like lambskin. It’s great for what it is. If I were only getting one jacket though, I wouldn’t make it my choice. Cheers

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:43 pm

why not opt for the Novapelle cowhide from wested?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:46 pm

coronado3 wrote:why not opt for the Novapelle cowhide from wested?

That's another choice.

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:52 pm

I'd rather have the lambtouch cowhide.

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:21 am

I've read some rave reviews of Wested's lambtouch cowhide. It's supposedly thinner than lambskin yet more durable. But after further research, I found that Peter believes the lambtouch is "too delicate, not tough enough." I'm a little confused. Somebody straighten me out.

Mark Brody · Post by **Mark Brody** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:05 am

Geez, they must have used up the last of the cowhide on my jacket last week! Afrayedknot, I had the EXACT same question as I was choosing a hide. Obviously, I went with the lambtouch cowhide. 15 years down the road, when my jacket is irreparably falling apart, I'll still have the same concern, and I'll probably be giving horsehide a try.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:31 am

Just remember, all of the movie jackets were artificially aged. Lambskin is fine to own. I've enjoyed having them, especially in the hotter weather. And in about five years, you'll have a distressed looking jacket. But remember, it may look the part of an adventurer’s jacket, but it will never play the part of an adventure’s jacket. It’s too wimpy a skin.

That's not exactly the case and I 'll explain.
Indiana jones character wears a 'costume' which is nothing else but his traveling clothes let's say. There should be no term as 'adventure jacket' and there could be no 'adventure hat' (a helmet?) or adventure pants, shirt and so on. The reason IJ jacket choice is lamb is because he travels in warm climates. His choice does not depend on expecting in his regular normal archaeological expedition to jump off cliffs or to be dragged behind trucks.

Also, wested lambskin will not distress in 5 years as you say. It will show distress in the 1st month of wear. My wested distressed very nicely in 1 year.

The whole image of a distressed leather jacket comes mostly from the WW2 A-2 pilot’s jacket. Those jackets became pilot’s and other people’s “second skins”. Those guys wore those jackets hard for the following reasons. First off, they were free (issued to them or obtained by some “other” method). Second, they just didn’t know if they were going to be around tomorrow. Both the Army Airforce and the Navy pilot’s jackets were made from horsehide, goatskin, and to a lesser degree cowhide. How long do you think a lambskin jacket would have lasted under those conditions?

It is true that the image of the distressed leather jacket comes from the A-2 pilot's jacket although, I doubt that many people have actually seen those jackets, except collectors and hardcore fans.
There are original A-2 jackets that are too distressed. You are forgetting though that the war lasted for 5 years and US fought for 4 years. The most distressing of those jackets did not happen during the war but after the war, if you consider that these jackets are 60 years and more. And please do not disagree becuase there are jacket with 50 missions painted art in mint condition today.

Anyhow, the USAAF did not choose horsehide because of its durability only. Horsehide was what cowhide is today and perhaps it was easier to get and most importantly cheaper than lambskin.

Fighter pilots wore the A-2 jacket and sat on a cockpit to fly the plane. Don't tell me that the cockpit was such a harsh environment that they needed a tough 'adventure jacket'

The reason that most leathers don’t “age” is because of modern tanning and dyeing techniques.

You got this one right.

Most though can be artificially aged and the jacket will maintain it’s structural integrity.

True. Because with wear you don't distress the jacket, you just distress the color.

Lamb ages quickly because it is generally a weak leather. The top layer just starts to wear off.

It is a weaker leather but it will not distess more easily because of that. It will distress more easily because the tanning and dyeing process is such that will allow it to do show. It's because the paint has gone only on the top layer and has not impreganted until half or all of the thickness of the leather.

You can distress the horsehide with acetone. It will be 10 times harder than what it is with lamb. You can distress the horsehide with sandpaper. It will get distressed but the result will look so bad that you will feel like throwing the jacket away. Trust me, I have tried both these techniques on horsehide. This is a warning to those who will dare to distress the horsehide.

afrayedknot, the best thing you can do is ask wested to send you their leather samples. Only after seeing them you will be able to decide.

Furthermore, wested's jackets are one of the cheapest you will ever find. So cheap that you will afford one more in your lifetime if something bad happens to the first.

Don't take the 'adventure jacket' pill. And don't buy the 'tough durable A-2 horsehide jacket'. Remember, the infantry went and still goes to war on cotton jackets. And don't tell me that the pilot in the cockpit had tougher time than the infantry, because I will tell you that in 1943 the USAAF replaced the A-2 with cotton jackets.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:24 am

Below is what Satipo said in a recent thread.

I've gotta disagree with you guys. The most important jacket requirements for Indy would have been drape and dramatic flapping about during fights. Therefore, it would have to be lambskin.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:29 pm

PLATON wrote:
Just remember, all of the movie jackets were artificially aged. Lambskin is fine to own. I've enjoyed having them, especially in the hotter weather. And in about five years, you'll have a distressed looking jacket. But remember, it may look the part of an adventurer’s jacket, but it will never play the part of an adventure’s jacket. It’s too wimpy a skin.
That's not exactly the case and I 'll explain.
Indiana jones character wears a 'costume' which is nothing else but his traveling clothes let's say. There should be no term as 'adventure jacket' and there could be no 'adventure hat' (a helmet?) or adventure pants, shirt and so on. The reason IJ jacket choice is lamb is because he travels in warm climates. His choice does not depend on expecting in his regular normal archaeological expedition to jump off cliffs or to be dragged behind trucks.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But by your line of thinking, why wouldn’t he choose cashmere? It’s much more fabulous. Isn't the CS jacket cowhide? I guess "Indiana Jones" decided in subsequent years that he needed a tougher jacket.

PLATON wrote:
The whole image of a distressed leather jacket comes mostly from the WW2 A-2 pilot’s jacket. Those jackets became pilot’s and other people’s “second skins”. Those guys wore those jackets hard for the following reasons. First off, they were free (issued to them or obtained by some “other” method). Second, they just didn’t know if they were going to be around tomorrow. Both the Army Airforce and the Navy pilot’s jackets were made from horsehide, goatskin, and to a lesser degree cowhide. How long do you think a lambskin jacket would have lasted under those conditions?
It is true that the image of the distressed leather jacket comes from the A-2 pilot's jacket although, I doubt that many people have actually seen those jackets, except collectors and hardcore fans.
There are original A-2 jackets that are too distressed. You are forgetting though that the war lasted for 5 years and US fought for 4 years. The most distressing of those jackets did not happen during the war but after the war, if you consider that these jackets are 60 years and more. And please do not disagree becuase there are jacket with 50 missions painted art in mint condition today.

Anyhow, the USAAF did not choose horsehide because of its durability only. Horsehide was what cowhide is today and perhaps it was easier to get and most importantly cheaper than lambskin.

Fighter pilots wore the A-2 jacket and sat on a cockpit to fly the plane. Don't tell me that the cockpit was such a harsh environment that they needed a tough 'adventure jacket'

Many original A-2’s today are not so much “distressed” as disintegrating. But if you think that those jackets didn’t take a beating originally, you need to do some research and look at some original pictures. Isn’t that what you’re an “expert” at anyway? You’re mistaken if you think that the US military (at any point in its history) would consider lambskin for anything. Some A-1 jacket’s were made from “cape skin” (young cow). That’s about the extent of the military going for luxury.

PLATON wrote: Don't take the 'adventure jacket' pill. And don't buy the 'tough durable A-2 horsehide jacket'. Remember, the infantry went and still goes to war on cotton jackets. And don't tell me that the pilot in the cockpit had tougher time than the infantry, because I will tell you that in 1943 the USAAF replaced the A-2 with cotton jackets.

Platon, why don’t you just answer the questions being asked? Afrayedknot didn’t ask if you thought a having a tough jacket was important. He already decided that it was important to him. He wanted to know the best way to go about getting a tough jacket. How hard is that?

PS- Bomber crew casualties at one point were pretty equal to the infantry. Hap Arnold got rid of leather because of its tendency to stiffen in the cold. Also the insulated cloth replacements were much warmer, an important consideration. Also, leather was a holdover from the days of open cockpit flying. Remember, these jackets were designed in the 30's.

PPS- Also, where did I say to get horsehide? I only said that lambskin was weak. If I were going to advocate a skin for toughness and drape, it would be goatskin. The only drawback to Afrayedknot's originally inquiry being that modern tanned goatskin doesn't age quickly.

Argonaut · Post by **Argonaut** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:10 pm

Well I already gave my recommendation in another thread, but I will again. I totally agree with Rundquist. Get a goatskin. I already have a lambskin, but that's just because I wanted total screen accuracy. I won't take that jacket on a lot of adventures. It's too nice and soft. Get a goat. That's what I would get. It's the best compromise between screen-accurate, durability, and period-accuracy.

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:28 pm

Rundquist wrote:The only drawback to Afrayedknot's originally inquiry being that modern tanned goatskin doesn't age quickly.

Exactly. And from what I've gathered, goatskin looks FOB (Fresh Out of the Bag) after many years. Goatskin would be my choice of hide if I thought it would develop some character after years of wear.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:48 pm

afrayedknot wrote:
Rundquist wrote:The only drawback to Afrayedknot's originally inquiry being that modern tanned goatskin doesn't age quickly.
Exactly. And from what I've gathered, goatskin looks FOB (Fresh Out of the Bag) after many years. Goatskin would be my choice of hide if I thought it would develop some character after years of wear.

It develops character. It'll mold to your body and the hide will wrinkle up. You just might not get the color loss / highlights (distressing) that you are after.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:51 pm

Exactly. And from what I've gathered, goatskin looks FOB (Fresh Out of the Bag) after many years. Goatskin would be my choice of hide if I thought it would develop some character after years of wear.

Platon, why don’t you just answer the questions being asked? Afrayedknot didn’t ask if you thought a having a tough jacket was important. He already decided that it was important to him. He wanted to know the best way to go about getting a tough jacket. How hard is that?

See, the man is not after durability only, he is also after a leather will distress naturally. Lamb is durable man, I have abused mine for 3 years and it's still holding. It's as durable as any other jacket.

The durability is not only a factor of which skin, it is also a factor of thickness of leather. The cowhide used by wested has about the same thickness as their lambskin.

For example the wested cowhide or horsehide, cannot be as durable as this

This is 3mm thickness man. If you fell off your bike with this nothing will happen to you or the jacket. Not the same story if you fall with your 1mm cowhide or horsehide or lambskin.

Lambsking is durable enough and give you the best looks. As somebody said before, get two jackets. One for the doorknobs and one to look good.

Everyone here has more than one. I am ordering my 4th now...

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:16 pm

PLATON wrote:
Exactly. And from what I've gathered, goatskin looks FOB (Fresh Out of the Bag) after many years. Goatskin would be my choice of hide if I thought it would develop some character after years of wear.

Platon, why don’t you just answer the questions being asked? Afrayedknot didn’t ask if you thought a having a tough jacket was important. He already decided that it was important to him. He wanted to know the best way to go about getting a tough jacket. How hard is that?
See, the man is not after durability only, he is also after a leather will distress naturally. Lamb is durable man, I have abused mine for 3 years and it's still holding. It's as durable as any other jacket.

The durability is not only a factor of which skin, it is also a factor of thickness of leather. The cowhide used by wested has about the same thickness as their lambskin.

For example the wested cowhide or horsehide, cannot be as durable as this

This is 3mm thickness man. If you fell off your bike with this nothing will happen to you or the jacket. Not the same story if you fall with your 1mm cowhide or horsehide or lambskin.

Lambsking is durable enough and give you the best looks. As somebody said before, get two jackets. One for the doorknobs and one to look good.

Everyone here has more than one. I am ordering my 4th now...

Well there is no arguing about aesthetics. That’s all personal opinion. And yes, leather thickness does have something to do with how durable a leather is, but not as much as the hide itself. Goatskin and kangaroo are two of the most durable hides there are and both are pretty thin. With regards to your bike jacket example, durability and protection are 2 different things. Your point seems to be that you think lambskin is tough enough for a jacket. That opinion is fine, even if it doesn’t hold true for everyone. But the idea that lambskin is as durable as other leathers is ludicrous.

Argonaut · Post by **Argonaut** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:37 pm

PLATON wrote:

Everyone here has more than one.

Ha, not me. Only the lambskin. But my next will be goat.

Rundquist wrote:
Well there is no arguing about aesthetics. That’s all personal opinion. And yes, leather thickness does have something to do with how durable a leather is, but not as much as the hide itself. Goatskin and kangaroo are two of the most durable hides there are and both are pretty thin. With regards to your bike jacket example, durability and protection are 2 different things. Your point seems to be that you think lambskin is tough enough for a jacket. That opinion is fine, even if it doesn’t hold true for everyone. But the idea that lambskin is as durable as other leathers is ludicrous.

Lambskin is definitely a weaker leather than any I've felt before. It's just plain softer. That's the whole reason it was used in the movies. It is weaker, and therefor easier to distress. They wanted a new jacket to look like it had been worn for years when it hadn't.

afrayedknot · Post by **afrayedknot** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:44 pm

So, I'm guessing lambskin is still the best choice as far as drape and distressing (and screen accuracy). As far as durability, it is the weakest, yet can last for years without babying it.

No one has answered my questions regarding the lambtouch cowhide, though. I understand that it is much thinner than the lambskin, yet more durable. How does it distress? Someone commented in another thread that Peter believed it was "too delicate" and "not tough enough". Is this why he discontinued it?

Does anyone care to comment?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:25 pm

It's not thinner than the lambskin, it's thinner than the regular cowhide maybe. All wested leathers are nearly the same, about 1mm.

I don't think he discontinued it because it was delicate.
I think he did because tanneries just weren't interest in making it anymore due to limited demand, so it was no longer available.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:09 pm

I'm curious as to what kind of adventures people are preparing for anyway, that they require the toughest hides known to man. I can't speak for Wested's lambskins, but I know my Avirex A2's lambskin held up fine when I came off the mat at the start of a giant Fun Slide once. Just a few light marks on the leather were the result of sliding all the way down on my front. I must admit I expected worse and was pleasantly surprised by the jacket's durability. But then I've yet to take on a ferocious door knob ...