Discussion: Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Bullwhip

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:20 pm

Yup. Looks digital here.

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:19 pm

That could also be a matte shot, and not a CGI whip. But a real whip against a green screen composited against a clean background plate. They might have had to do a little digital clean-up on the edges of the whip. My laptop hard disk died a little while back, so I've been chugging along on an old Mac G4 450 at home. The video card can't handle the bit rate, (new computer next month.)

I'll take a closer look at one of the 1080 versions at work tomorrow and see what I can see.

But the trailer itself looks...erm...interesting to say the least. ;-)

Vegeta · Post by **Vegeta** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:45 pm

I personally hate the jacka whip...Why in the world did they pick it??

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:52 pm

Because it's what the whip coach prefers for the type of work done in the film. And for the REAL reason, Indiana finaly replaced his whip after years of globe trotting. It's a tool people.

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:07 pm

As far as digital in that shot goes, let's face it... it would be hard to pull that shot off practically. In the past they would have done a cut edit between the lashing and the swinging (on an anchored stunt whip) and lose the dynamic of the run-and-swing.

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:22 pm

When it warms up I am going to try a running wrap. Just to see if it COULD be done. If anyone is in a warmer climate right now, care to try and report. Please, no swinging

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:23 pm

Yeah, I mean seriously. If they tried to pull that off in real life, and Harrison for some reason made a mistake (which would be pretty easy), he'd fall at least a dozen feet, flat on his face onto hard concrete. For something like that, I think I can forgive them for wanting to just digitalize it. :junior: -IJ

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:45 pm

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining that it's digital. Just pointing it out. The effect looks awesome (apart from the fact that unless the lamp was already pointing towards Indy, there's no way he could accomplish that swing).

rebelgtp · Post by **rebelgtp** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:08 pm

hollywood1340 wrote:When it warms up I am going to try a running wrap. Just to see if it COULD be done. If anyone is in a warmer climate right now, care to try and report. Please, no swinging

only whip i would even think of trying that with is my steel cable core whip. it can manage some mighty firm wraps that can be hard to get undone and actually has the strength. However doing such things really would tear up the leather. hmmm maybe a paracord whip with steel cable core....

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:20 am

What I was thinking was get a running start, aim at a tree branch or what have you, and throw. See if I can lock the wrap while moving. Because when I saw that this morning I thought "Now THAT'S Indiana Jones!" And I must admit the Jacka whip is striking with the two tone knots. "####! I thought it was closer!"

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:37 am

I for one enjoyed the new trailer, it was good to see Indy back in action. Looks like there will be some interesting whip stunts in this movie

. CGI or not, Don’t try these at home kids

As I’ve mentioned before it was Anthony Delongis’s idea to bring in these whips, because he likes Terry’s whips, They are what he is used to using. Several of us have speculated that it would not have been his call to use them as the main hero whip though. So just who did, and why did they choose this whip as the hero whip over David's or Joe's? Can't say just yet but hopefully time will tell. I've talked to Terry and even he didn’t even know these bullwhips where for the new Indiana Jones movie when he received the order to make them earlier last year. He like many of us were also surprised and disappointed to hear that David Morgan’s bullwhips where not featured in the film. It's been nearly 20 years since the last movie though and things change, alot of the aspect of the outfit and gear this time around are going to be a bit different. I like Terry’s whip too and am used to using his whips so I am not put off by the new Indy bullwhip like some are.

For those interested, Terry is also aware of Indygear and our interest in exact replicas of the movie bullwhips. He is working on an idea to offer more with the bullwhip and possibly even sell direct but at this point due to a large backlog of his regular whip orders, the Australian Stock Saddle co. is the only one who has the whip available for actual order (at a highly inflated price). It was through Colin D that he received the original order to make them and feels obligated to keep them supplied with the whip for now. At some point he may supply them to Western Stage Props and or David Morgan as both are interested in getting them, but he hasn’t made any final decision yet. Terry also seems very willing to supply the dimensions of the whip to us, so that other whip makers will be able to make an accurate style copy of this bullwhip to help fill in the gap for those wanting a Indy 4 whip. He plans to keep me updated on his progress with both so when he is ready to do so I’ll post the information. I know Bernardo del Carpio has already begun working on a version of the new whip though, which I am sure we are all anxious to see.

Dan

P.S. I've done running wraps like that with a whip, its not much differnt then standing still and doing them.

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:02 am

Thanks for Terry's take on this, Dan. I've wondered what his thoughts were on all of this. I mean, he's made whips that have been used in Hollywood for decades now, (and not just because Anthony DeLongis uses them. Anthony's selection is no mistake!) but it seems like putting one in the hands of something as iconic as Indiana Jones leaves every other whip film in the dust by comparison, (Lash LaRue, Catwoman, Zorro, Underworld, The Rundown...All iconic in their own way, but when you say Indiana Jones's whip, there's this "Ahhh...WOW!" that people get.) I've always been impressed with his work, but I've never had the opportunity of correspondence to be impressed with the individual. Thanks for giving me that.

I'm also excited about the prospects of being able to buy direct from Terry. I generally try to avoid middlemen anyway and I love his stuff. The remote possibility of having a "customized" whip from Terry is something I've wanted for some time now.

Looking at the teaser trailer, it's good to see that the best aspects of what DeLongis brings to the table are present: Fluidity and motion. He doesn't stop at the edge of the crate, throw the whip, and then jump to swing, as in the old days. It's all part of the same motion. I didn't quite no how that was going to translate with Spielberg's directing style, (Stephen uses A LOT of shots. Seriously, there are probably 2X as many camera setups in Spielberg's movies as in others. The first bullwhip crack in Raiders from the whip coming off the belt to where Barranca runs back into the jungle is cut up between about 7 or 8 different shots.)

I also wasn't quite sure how well Anthony's whip style was going to fit into Indiana Jones. Anthony is a martial artist, and it comes through in what he does, (regardless if it's a whip or sword or nothing in his hand,): No wasted motion with one action rolling right into the next.

Indy isn't like that. He's a brawler. That's one of the great beauty's of the films.

Indy doesn't throw punches.

Indy throws haymakers.

He gets his footing, rears his fist back, and launches it forward, with a big follow through, and then a setup for the next punch. All very much in that glorious, exaggerated 1930's action serial style. Indy's whip style has always followed that, (the best way I can address this is that Indy's whip technique in the original trilogy was rather linear. DeLongis's is rather circular and non-linear.)

I knew that they'd want to do something more slick for this film. To kick the already over-the-top action up another notch and give us something that would impress this Matrix/Crank/Jet Li generation of action movie audiences, (which were in so many ways, inspired by the action scenes in the first Indiana Jones films,) I was REALLY worried about how that would translate with Indiana Jones.

So far, I really like what I see. It meshes well, and to me it makes sense. Indiana has had 20 MORE years of doing this. This isn't the young, cocky, indestructible Indy from Temple, who would just hammer his way out of situations and be sore in the morning. This is an Indy who is sore EVERY morning from having spent his youth just hammering his way out of situations. He's old and and more worn around the edges, but he's also had a lot more experience. He's learned a fair amount about hitting in the right places, so you don't have to hit them so hard.

And the more I reflect on it, the more I think THAT is the reason behind the selection of Jacka's work for this film. The whip reflects that experience. Visually, less heavy and hard hitting than the old Morgan-look, but faster, more sinewy and more precise, (not wanting to start a flame war about whether a Jacka or a Morgan whip is more precise or fast. I think that has more to do with the person holding it than the whip itself, and it doesn't really factor into what I'm talking about. I'm talking about appearance on screen. By design, Jacka's whips look more sleek and sinewy and less rugged and heavy than David Morgan's.) Indy might be a fossil himself, but that doesn't mean he can't have SOME change to how he does things, and what tools he uses.

And to be honest, and this is just my personal opinion, if I knew I was riding into battle, and knew I would need a good whip on my hip to defend myself, out of all the whips I've worked with, I'd mostly likely grab my Jacka. ;-)

Again, thanks for the info and as always, happy cracking!

-The Other Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:29 pm

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:41 pm

No, my whip is a +2. And with my Dex of 16, and the fact that I have taken whip as a weapon specialization. That makes my entire "To Hit" bonus a +6! That's +8 against undead creatures because of a character class bonus, and....

Nevermind.

Severe Nerd Moment

BACK TO THE TOPIC!

-Blaine, 10th level Ranger/5th level Thief

Oops! Sorry again.

-The OTHER (more white and nerdy,) Dan

rebelgtp · Post by **rebelgtp** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:44 pm

thefish wrote:No, my whip is a +2. And with my Dex of 16, and the fact that I have taken whip as a weapon specialization. That makes my entire "To Hit" bonus a +6! That's +8 against undead creatures because of a character class bonus, and....

Nevermind.

Severe Nerd Moment

BACK TO THE TOPIC!

-Blaine, 10th level Ranger/5th level Thief

Oops! Sorry again.

-The OTHER (more white and nerdy,) Dan

whats worse is i understood most of that...i must walk away with my head hung in shame now...

Indakin · Post by **Indakin** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:29 pm

Shtick wrote:Yup. Looks digital here.

the thing thats weird about that entire swing he makes is that the whip isnt long enough looking to alow him to swing as far as he does. The light he swings from would have had to have been already pulled back like it is in the shot too. Just a bit of weirdness on the part of the digital editing with the whip, no ones gonna really pay attention to that, but just watch slowly. IT confussed me a bit for technical sake how it works.

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:40 pm

We all KNOW indy has a rubber whip. It's SA people! I'm guessing he pulled out his whip from TOD that he swung across the moat of lava to get the stones. Might explain why his whip looks weird when he lands, it's re-structering itself for the next swing.

Mr. Kent · Post by **Mr. Kent** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:21 am

Pay attention to the 1:15 mark on the trailer. When the image is from above. Indy is using his whip to swing, but it appears to still be on his belt????

Mr. Kent · Post by **Mr. Kent** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:30 am

Never mind...it was the cord from the lamp

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:35 am

Mr. Kent wrote:Never mind...it was the cord from the lamp

Don’t you just hate when that happens!

Dan, Glad i could share that the information, I’ve enjoyed conversing with Terry and I think there is a good dialog opened now. I am keeping my fingers crossed that this all works out so that we can get those whips!

Those who don’t like the new whip, things could have been much worse if Hasbro had gotten a product placement clause in the new movie

Your kids are gonna love these though

Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:52 am

You're...kidding...right?

Looks like a Morgan

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:57 am

No, it's not a Morgan. Knots are too square. Also, it appears to be a 2-plait, with a large seam running down the center.

My girlfriend has always been afraid to attempt whip cracking. Perhaps I'll start her out on that model.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:31 am

Just tell her that, worst comes to worst, she'll have a really hot scar on her chin...then again, maybe you'd better not tell her that.

:junior: -IJ

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:35 am

Heh. She's already got one, but that was from her figure skating.

rebelgtp · Post by **rebelgtp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:02 pm

anyone notice that it has a "demo" mode switch? that kinda takes the work out of whip cracking

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:53 pm

You know, I know lots of whip performers, (myself included,) who've been asked in all seriousness where the batteries go, (because they just can't believe that a little strip of leather makes that much noise.)

Internationally known Knife Thrower and Whip Cracker, John Bailey actually had a Florida Cow Whip made up with a hollow handle so he could "fake a crack" so it didn't make noise, and then unscrews the end off the handle pulls out a couple double A's, laughs and says the batteries are dead, and puts different ones, (equally dead,) in and then let's it rip. Once the joke's over, he explains that it doesn't really need batteries and how a whip ACTUALLY works, and it's a really funny gag.

I really need to get one of those Indy toys as a gag for when I'm doing classes and shows. Oh, the possibilities....

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:04 pm

Here'a another pic of HF holding the new Jacka whip. We can see another angle of the handle knob, and the funny wrist loop knot. The full pic is too big to post it here, so here's the link:

http://www.theraider.net/news/newsimage ... many01.jpg

Ane here's a close-up of the whip:

Regards,

Bernardo

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:28 pm

Here is my KotCS whip:

Made by Adam Winrich!

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:55 pm

Nice looking Indyfan !

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:04 pm

Adam nailed that transition knot! Looks like a Jacka to me. Looks like he also beefed up the transition in the thong. How's it handle?

Crack it with pride!

All the best,

-Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:37 pm

Well if y'alls is whipn' em out, here's mine

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:07 am

thefish wrote:How's it handle?

All the best,

-Dan

Like a dream

It's as a REALLY loud crack! A police officer actually got called down to where i was cracking it because someone thought it was gun fire.

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:39 pm

I've been thinking. According to Anthony, he trained Ford with a Morgan 450 10'. And why would he train the star on a whip he wouldn't use? The use of of Mr. Jacka's whip in the movie isn't adding up.
The fact it caught us all by suprise for starters. Even the maker. And the aforementioned training bit. Heck one of our members got to use that very whip. Don't know if it's just me, but something seems...off or not quite right. Maybe just the ramblings of a loyal fan. I do like the new whip though.

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:38 pm

I was just reading a blog from a movie reviewer that got an "Offical Indy Whip" sent with their trailer.

It doesnt' look like a morgan and it's not tight enough to be a strain...so it must be one of the Jacka whips:

You can read the whole blog post at http://www.cinematical.com/2008/02/22/c ... bullwhips/

xoxo

Louie
http://www.bullwhips.org

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:04 am

Shouldn't the knots be lighter?

JMObi · Post by **JMObi** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:17 am

Hi Bernardo!

You can see on that photo you posted that the thong is curving fairly much straight off the handle in that whip. That particular whip doesn't seem to have stiffener/binding in the transition.

Jon

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:25 am

You can see on that photo you posted that the thong is curving fairly much straight off the handle in that whip. That particular whip doesn't seem to have stiffener/binding in the transition.

Actually, Harrison is holding the whip above the transition knot in that pic. Because of how it coils, I tend to hold my Jacka whip in much the same way when coiled up, so I would have to say this picture is not indicative that the reinforcement's NOT THERE.

But then, it's no real indicator that it IS THERE either.

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:12 am

Someone's gonna have to break down and buy one of the bloody things. Notit!

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:01 am

Louie that’s the “officially licensed” Indiana Jones bullwhip that they sell at the Disney Stores! They go great with the Wool felt doorman pacific Indy Fedora!

Hollywood, Quiet you! I’m tempted enough to get one of the new Jacka whips with out your encouragement. I am trying to be patient though, I’d rather get it from Terry if i can. The other place has them over priced by about $300!

When I asked Anthony Delongis last year about what the deal was with the whips in the new movie, he said he couldn’t talk about it until the film was released so I respectfully left it at that. Hopefully we’ll find out the story after may 22nd. Maybe Jonesy got more out of him when they did their training session and interview.

For those intrested, Here is a quick comparison shot to show the difference in how the way Terry binds the transition zone in his whips effects the over all stiffness of the thong, compared to David Morgan’s whips.

Both bullwhips are very well used and broken in and while its not the best picture to show off the whips themselves, it should at least give you the general idea of the difference in ridgendness of the first 10 or so inches of the thong. Yes, The knot on the black standard Terry Jacka whip is larger then the ones he currently ties so ignore that.

Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:16 am

Dan,
How does that effect the formation of the loop, ala Delongis Method?

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:18 am

Different Dan, but I think I can chime in here. That thicker transition doesn't negatively effect the formation of the loop for that "Delongis" "Supinated" "with the bias" throw.

In fact, I find that the Jacka whips handle that "with bias" throw better because with the stiffer transition, there's more rigidity in the butt end of the whip where the loop is formed, which promotes a more straight, strong, controlled crack than you get throwing Strain's, Nolan's, Shultz's, and Morgan whips Delongis style.

But I also throw Strain's, Nolan's, Morgan's etc. etc. etc. the same way, and get great results. The Jacka whips just seem more suited to it. No doubt why Jacka whips are the choice for Mr. Tony D!

Mind, if you're used to Indy-style whips, Jackas take a little getting used to, (especially his newer ones. I think he beefs up the transition even more than on the ones from the era that Borton's comes from! I'll pull out my digital camera, and snap a couple pics of my Jacka next to my Nolan for comparison.) But after a little bit of playing with them, they are a beautiful whip to use.

Not better or worse, or anything Just a completely different feel. I love mine!

All the best, happy cracking, and I for one have some questions myself about the new Jacka Indy whip, so SOMEONE PLEASE BUY ONE!

-The Other Dan

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:03 am

I agree with thefish, The stiffness of Terry’s Australian bullwhips actually lends itself very nicely to the way Anthony Delongis uses a whip. The amount of tension in the thong is almost ideal in forming that early loop. I think that’s one of the big reasons he is so fond of them.

Dan, that bullwhip is only a little older then yours, I think. It’s the newer design with a heavier thong and the fiberglass based handle. The other 8ft I have of his is the older style, with the lighter thong and the cane handle.

Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:43 pm

Here's a question, are there TWO versions of the KotCS whip? Some seem to be of the opinion that a version exists without the Jacka Transition. I don't think he'd make two whips, especialy since he didn't know they were going to be in the movie. Would someone post a picture of their Jacka in a whip holster to see if the "non transition" look can be achieved therein?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:54 pm

Yes. From what I hear, Joe Strain made at least some of the screen-used whips. :junior: -M

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:32 am

Ah....if so, that explains this.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:48 am

What I would like to know is to what capacity were the Joe Strain whips used in the new film? I know, I know... We probably will have to wait until the new movie hits, but I am still curious as heck! Especially for us folks that have (or are getting) Strain whips! Nothing beats knowing the 'pedigree' of your whip, so to speak.

Someone mentioned that the stuntmen bought their own whips from Strain via Western Stage Props... is that all? I was hoping it would be more along the lines of the production team being the ones who wanted Strain whips in the picture, rather than it being the stuntmen who brought it along with them... In any case, I hope Indy (as portrayed by Ford

) ends up carrying at least one Strain whip in the new film!

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:00 am

Mulceber wrote:Yes. From what I hear, Joe Strain made at least some of the screen-used whips. :junior: -M

Where did you hear that? I would be very happy for Joe if its true but every bullwhip I’ve seen so far in any of the Kingdom of the Crystal skull material has been the Terry Jacka hero bullwhips. Some had been heavily broken prior to filming though and the stiff transition you would be used to seeing on the newer whips wasn’t as noticeable. The one possible exception to this so far is the “bullwhip” that Harrison Ford was see swinging on towards the amy jeep shown in the trailer. For safety reasons that was probably one of the stunt whips with the polyester/nylon line running down the center that David Morgan most likely supplied.

Hollywood, If you coil up regular Jacka bullwhip tightly, at least one that has already been broken in, you can't really tell that the transition is that much stiffer then any other well made bullwhip.

The production department did order several bullwhips from Western Stage Props late in production, Those where the bullwhips Joe Strain made. As far as I heard they where for the stunt personnel to use as their personal whips on the set and there wasn’t any word on if they would show up on screen at any point.

Dan

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:25 am

Well from what we can see, the whip is going to get some use!! That Jacka transition makes the whip feel....interesting. I'll continue this train of thought under another thread

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:27 am

Just wanted to bump this thread up again with some new photos of the Terry Jacka Kingdom of the Crystal Skull bullwhips.

I for one really like this new bullwhip, and am looking forward to getting one from Terry. There will be also A LOT of new information on these bullwhips in updated section for the main Indygear.com page coming soon, so stay tuned!

Dan

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:15 pm

When I make my whips I braid in a third belly right in the core coming off the junction in order to make a stronger transition. So I don't mind the stiffer transition on this whip since that is how I prefer them. But what I really appreciate about Morgan's whips is how he uses a heavier hide and cuts wider strands all the way to the point. This makes for a more robust "adventurer's" whip, IMO. I'm looking at the narrow strands about mid-thong on that coiled over the shoulder pic and I can't imagine that whip holding up to "Indy abuse."

I used to have a stock whip made by Mr. Jacka that had strands cut just like that. It was a beautiful whip and fell perfectly. He's an excellent whip maker, no question. I just think that DM's whips are built Ford tough. (Pun intended.)