Top grain vs. Full grain

[Our best men]

(Edit: 2/9/08 - I just want to add this edit right here at the top so anyone
reading this for the first time will see it. Since Posting this topic, I've
received the jacket and at this point I've had it for 1 week. My concerns
about quality were, for the most part, unnecessary. I believe it's been said
in another thread but since it's come to be my opinion too, I'll say it here.
The leather used, while not of the highest quality or heaviest weight
(I'm talking Oz. per square foot. Pre D cowhide is, by my inexact
measurements about a 2.50 Oz. leather, or about 1mm thick.) is an appropriate
leather for this jacket, in my opinion, especially if you want one that will take some light
weathering/distressing easily and look great. Really, that's what this jacket
is all about, looking great.)

Hello everyone,

This is my first post so I'd like to say thanks to you all for helping me
select a jacket. This forum has been entertaining and informative. I have a
custom Wested Raiders in predistressed cowhide arriving sometime in February.
I'm not concerned with screen accuracy so I didn't ask for any mods except the 80's fit pattern.

My question is this (I did search but found nothing helpful): What quality leather is Wested using to make jackets?
I've read the term "top-grain" a few times. Here is a link to Wikipedia's entry for leather.
The description of top-grain does not sound desirable to me. Is this accurate and is this the type of leather Wested uses?

Thanks for any help and information you may have.

[RockBottom]

I've found the description on the Saddleback Leather web page useful:


Full Grain Leather is the best leather money can buy and the only leather good enough for Saddleback Leather products. It comes from the top layer of the hide which is the toughest part. From he middle layer of the leather to the top, there are fibers woven together vertically making it very strong. The natural surface of full grain leather burnishes and beautifies with use. Some companies sort of spray paint their inferior leather to try to make it look like full grain leather, but it just ends up looking like someone spray painted some cheap leather. From what I've seen, maybe 2% of all bags are made of Full Grain, and those rarely sell under $400. This leather is expensive for me to buy and very difficult to work.

I haven't done anything to my bags to add character. The marks and scrapes and scars are all natural. Where the cow had been gored, scraped by barbed wire or cactus or mesquite thorns... been bitten by a coyote... or branded, the color sets in deep and stands out a bit (you can see the full grain running through the hide in the form of veins too). Your bag may have a few small scars and imperfections, but those just lend a tremendous amount of character to it. Ride it hard; it'll look better.

Top Grain Leather is the second highest grade of leather. The leather is split from the top layer of blemished hide then sanded and refinished. This is how they get rid of scars and scrapes and light cow brands. Top grain leather does not easily burnish and beautify with use. It is strong and durable, but not good enough for Saddleback to use since a large part of the strongest fibers are now gone leaving mainly the horizontal (easily pulled apart) fibers of the leather. By the way, did you know that the leather shavings are used in cheap dog food?

Genuine Leather is the third grade of leather and is produced from the layers of hide that remain after the top is split off for the better grades. The surface is usually refinished (spray painted) to resemble a higher grade. It can be smooth or rough. Caution: This inferior quality of leather becomes evident with use since the fibers are horizontal and not as tightly woven.

Bonded Leather is leather's bottom. Leftover scraps are ground together with glue and resurfaced in a process similar to vinyl manufacture. Bonded leather is weak and degrades quickly with use. Most Bibles are covered with this. By the way, my Bible covers are cooler than Christmas.


I don't know the specific answer on Wested, but it sure looks full grain to me.

http://www.saddlebackleather.com/briefcases.htm

[Our best men]

Hey RB, thanks for the link. Those look like great bags.

I wonder if perhaps full grain leather wouldn't be too thick for a non
protective jacket. I'm just hoping the grain of these jackets is real and not
embossed into the leather after the real grain has been removed, as that
Wikipedia link suggests. Maybe I'm just being naive.

[RockBottom]

I stumbled across Saddleback Leather when I was shopping for a new briefcase last year but ended up going with CustomHide instead. The Saddleback was enticing, but it was nearly double the CustomHide.

http://www.customhide.com/default.htm

[Canada Jones]

Welcome our best men. Glad you joined us. Thanks to RockBottom for the info on the leather. very helpful. I have a few bonded leather and they are definately not high quality leather. I also have a very nice higher quality leather as well but I also think that the way the manufacturer uses the leather in their product makes a big difference as well.
best
Canada

Here is another great link which explains the different leathers.
http://www.leatherisbetter.com/Article-on-Leather.html

[rick5150]

Be wary of any leather defintitions from anyone with something to gain from them.

Maybe I am just nitpicky, but although leather may visually appear to be fibrous, I would question anyone stating that the fibers are 'woven together'. Show me the leather weaving shop that is producing this

Also, 'genuine leather' can apply to more than just the "third grade of leather" or "inferior quality leather." I think it is just to distinguish real leather from imitation leather.

My understanding is that full grain is the hide that has basically only had the hair removed from the surface. All imperfections in the hide remain. This type of leather actually develops a patina rather than a worn look and is considered the best, strongest and most durable leather.

Top grain has had the surface (where the hair used to be) sanded smooth to remove imperfections and then an artificial grain is often embossed into the leather using heat and pressure to make it look as if it was full grain leather. A nicer looking leather as most of the perfections are gone.

I may be mistaken on any of this though, but it just makes sense...

Here is something else. I posted it on my website and thought it would be amusing ...:

Often 'bovine' is thought of as cow, but 'bovine' comprises a class of large mammals of the genus Bos. General characteristics include a cloven hoof and usually at least one of the sexes of a species having a true horn. But we make everything really complicated by breaking it down further.

We refer certain leathers as cowhide, but check this out:

They all start out as CALVES, which is generally a young female or male (usually the first year). If you eat the meat of a calf when it is 1-3 months old, you are eating VEAL.
When it grows older than that, if he is a male, he is a BULL. Unless it is castrated, then he is a STEER.

If she is a female, that has not given birth yet, you call her a HEIFER; otherwise she is a COW. (Finally)

There are other closely related mammals of the Bos genus. Oxen, for instance, loosely refers to similar animals such as the BUFFALO and BISON as well, but an OX more specifically refers to a mature castrated male used for draft purposes (pulling loads).

Collectively, they can also be referred to as LIVESTOCK or CATTLE.

[Bjones]

What gets me is that guy has a lengthy description of what the best types of leather are and to watch out for buying this or that at stores.........and all the products on his page are going for less than $100?

Yeah real high quality stuff there. You would not catch me on a motorcycle in a jacket that cost $89.95. Wouldn;t trust MY hide to THAT hide.

[Our best men]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the welcome, Canada.

I'm possibly more confused now than I was before. I know that Wikipedia is to be taken with
a grain of salt, but I wonder which source is correct. As it stands now Top-grain could be either
the best leather available, or...not.

I cannot find any statement by Wested as to what type of leather they use, and even
if I could would it be detailed enough to mean anything? Putting aside the marketing terminology,
Wested probably uses many different types of leathers, obtained from different sources,
tanned in different ways and subjected to different post tanning processes.

If the leather these jacket's are constructed from is Top grain, as I'm going to assume, but has not
been "corrected" to remove imperfections, then I'm happy. I don't think Full-grain would work in
anything other than a jacket made to protect the wearer from falls at speed from a motor vehicle.
It definitely wouldn't drape the way the movie jackets do.

(I enjoyed that info, rick5150 )

[RockBottom]

Well, if you're in the mood to get even MORE confused, take a look at this:

http://www.americanmystique.com/about-l ... ackets.htm

[nicktheguy]

It's true that you really do get what you pay for.

[Canada Jones]

What gets me is that guy has a lengthy description of what the best types of leather are and to watch out for buying this or that at stores.........and all the products on his page are going for less than $100?

Yeah real high quality stuff there. You would not catch me on a motorcycle in a jacket that cost $89.95. Wouldn;t trust MY hide to THAT hide.

You are right! LOL. I never looked at his jackets - just the info on leather. Very astute of your Bjones.
best
Canada

[Our best men]

...and it is neither full grain nor top grain. It's "genuine leather", which anyone
may be surprised to learn is only slightly disappointing.

My first impressions upon receiving the package were, in order: surprise that
it arrived on a Sunday, disappointment that it was as light as it is, pessimism
and doubt as I removed it from the bags and felt how thin the leather was.

Then I put it on.

It fit's wonderfully. It looks great. I love it.

Here are a couple pictures of the jacket by itself. I have to say, this leather photographs
beautifully. It has an apparent depth and richness that unfortunately is just not there in life.
There is a shine that I'm hoping I can get rid of somehow, but I'm not overly concerned
at this point. This is straight out of the bag, no pecards or dressing of any kind.





Here is what my order form looked like:

Date: 29/12/2007 08:04:17
Height: 5' 8"
Chest: 38"
Sleeve: 25"
Jacket_Size: 38R to 40R
Jacket style: Raiders Jacket
Leather: Dark Brown - Predistressed Cowhide
Lining / Zip: Cotton Body-Satin Sleeves (rec)

Requests:
80's fit pattern please

Here are some additional measurements in case you can use them:

Waist: 32"

Back: 20" Measured from nape of neck (at collar seam) to 1 1/4" below
the bottom of the belt line

Shoulder Span: 18" Measured across back from shoulder seam to
shoulder seam

Arm: 25" Measured from shoulder seam to first thumb knuckle

Shoulder: 6 & 3/4" Measured from edge of neck to shoulder seam


I can post measurements from the jacket and/or more photo's if anyone
is interested.

-Brian

[Chevalier Krak]

Well, if you're in the mood to get even MORE confused, take a look at this:

http://www.americanmystique.com/about-l ... ackets.htm

I do like the brown Enforcer Motorcycle jacket he has - a very nice-looking piece!

[Indiana Max]

Hey, anyone noticed the half-boot on the wiki picture :

[RockBottom]

...and it is neither full grain nor top grain. It's "genuine leather", which anyone
may be surprised to learn is only slightly disappointing.

My first impressions upon receiving the package were, in order: surprise that
it arrived on a Sunday, disappointment that it was as light as it is, pessimism
and doubt as I removed it from the bags and felt how thin the leather was.

Then I put it on.

It fit's wonderfully. It looks great. I love it.

Here are a couple pictures of the jacket by itself. I have to say, this leather photographs
beautifully. It has an apparent depth and richness that unfortunately is just not there in life.
There is a shine that I'm hoping I can get rid of somehow, but I'm not overly concerned
at this point. This is straight out of the bag, no pecards or dressing of any kind.

Here is what my order form looked like:

Date: 29/12/2007 08:04:17
Height: 5' 8"
Chest: 38"
Sleeve: 25"
Jacket_Size: 38R to 40R
Jacket style: Raiders Jacket
Leather: Dark Brown - Predistressed Cowhide
Lining / Zip: Cotton Body-Satin Sleeves (rec)

Requests:
80's fit pattern please

Here are some additional measurements in case you can use them:

Waist: 32"

Back: 20" Measured from nape of neck (at collar seam) to 1 1/4" below
the bottom of the belt line

Shoulder Span: 18" Measured across back from shoulder seam to
shoulder seam

Arm: 25" Measured from shoulder seam to first thumb knuckle

Shoulder: 6 & 3/4" Measured from edge of neck to shoulder seam


I can post measurements from the jacket and/or more photo's if anyone
is interested.

-Brian

Wow--that looks dramatically different from "my" pre-distressed cowhide which I got last month. Plus, mine was anything but light. If I had your pictures and description without the order form, I'd swear it was predistressed lamb.

How did you know that it is "genuine leather"? I haven't seen a label in mine to that effect.

[Our best men]

Here is a pic of the "genuine real leather" tag and another for context. Also
you can see the jacket has no inner leather facings and a small pocket
facing, which are things I did not ask for.

After wearing the jacket for a bit I noticed another problem with the
shoulder's, or at least the left shoulder, in that they appear to have been cut
to accommodate shoulder pads. I don't believe they are too long as I've seen
pictures of other jackets on this forum that don't hang the way this one does
yet the shoulder seams on those jackets seem to come farther down the arm
then this one.

The underarm to underarm measurement is 23", which after wearing it for
a while feels too big, especially for what was supposed to be an 80's fit 38
to 40. At this point I'm having mixed feelings about it.

Should I contact Wested about sending it back?

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7295/tagth9.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8443 ... extfe3.jpg

Thanks,

Brian

[PLATON]

Some people may disagree but in the film the shoulders were hanging a little bit. I think in the 80s fit version available by Wested they don't. At least in two of mine didn't.

After that, it's your choice....


All dets wog.

[RockBottom]

Here is a pic of the "genuine real leather" tag and another for context.

Ahh. Now that you point it out, mine has that tag as well.

[Our best men]

Thanks for the replies.

Some people may disagree but in the film the shoulders were hanging a little bit. I think in the 80s fit version available by Wested they don't. At least in two of mine didn't.

I'm not at all concerned with film accuracy. I'm only concerned with getting
what I ordered and that is put together correctly.

I do really like the jacket and would probably only send it back if I found
out for sure that it is not the leather I requested. Even then it would be a tough decision.



Of course this could be moot since I applied pecards last night.

Thanks again,

Brian

(Edit: After searching the forum a bit and looking at pictures of the new
pre-distressed lambskin, I'm wondering if this jacket may have been
constructed from that leather.)

[St. Dumas]

Here is a pic of the "genuine real leather" tag and another for context.

Ahh. Now that you point it out, mine has that tag as well.

Maybe that just means "Not Fake Leather".

SD

[Doug C]

Hey our-best-men, that jacket looks great on you! I can say with complete confidence that Wested is not going to sell anything but genuine leather, so that label is completely unnecessary IMHO. Oh and about the pecards - why? Why would anyone apply pecards to a new jacket or even an old one that's not showing signs of drying - I just don't get this though I read of people doing it all the time, Indy's jacket had a pretty rough and tumble look to it afterall. Anyway your jacket does look good in the pictures of you wearing it, so perhaps the Pecards contributed to that some I suppose. Congrats!

Doug C

[Our best men]

Hi Doug C, thanks for the reply and thanks for the compliment.

I agree that Wested wouldn't sell fake leather, that was never the point. I
was originally concerned about the quality of the leather they use. A tag
which says "genuine real leather" in a jacket which is supposed to be made
from leather could be taken as an indication of poor quality, at least to my
mind.

That seems to be beside the point now as I'm not even sure the jacket was
made from the type of leather I requested, and even that may be losing
importance to me as I like the way the jacket looks, and it fit's almost perfectly.
In the end I suppose it wasn't a very expensive jacket, and there will always
be problems with buying clothing using the Internet.

Thanks again for the replies,

Brian

[RockBottom]

Hi Doug C, thanks for the reply and thanks for the compliment.

I agree that Wested wouldn't sell fake leather, that was never the point. I
was originally concerned about the quality of the leather they use. A tag
which says "genuine real leather" in a jacket which is supposed to be made
from leather could be taken as an indication of poor quality, at least to my
mind.

That seems to be beside the point now as I'm not even sure the jacket was
made from the type of leather I requested, and even that may be losing
importance to me as I like the way the jacket looks, and it fit's almost perfectly.
In the end I suppose it wasn't a very expensive jacket, and there will always
be problems with buying clothing using the Internet.

Thanks again for the replies,

Brian

Here is my lamb A2 and my "distressed hide" Wested. Which looks more like your leather?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i162/ssif21/a2.jpg

[Kt Templar]

A little while ago a member here, who was a vegan, asked if Wested could make a jacket out of fake leather for them. The answer was short and sweet. No way!

Don't worry, your leather weated is real leather. And good quality stuff at that. Others might use the resurfaced stuff or cured pigskin. Don't mistake weight for quality. You can have really heavy leather that is rubbish. It all depends on the way the leather is produced.

You have a jacket that looks like it fits very well, try not to see faults where there aren't any. Current thinking is that SA is no leather facings on the zipper and simple piped inner pocket.

[Our best men]

Here is my lamb A2 and my "distressed hide" Wested. Which looks more like your leather?

Hi RB,

The second picture does look very much like the jacket I have, especially the
sheen and the way the leather drapes (particularly the storm flap wrinkles).
This does not look like the same jacket you posted pictures of earlier, and it
doesn't look much like the other pre-distressed cowhide's I can find in this
forum. You described your's as "anything but light". Mine weighs 3.2 lbs,
which seems very light to me.

Anyway, I don't think I'll be sending it back to Wested, although I would
be open to selling it (and ordering another one) if someone were interested.


Doug C, I forgot to address your pecards question. I used pecards
because I really like the look of the pecarded predistressed cowhides
people have posted pictures of on this forum.

Thanks for your help,

Brian

(Edit: KT posted while I was writing.

Thanks for the words of reassurance, KT. As I said in an earlier post, I
don't think for a second that this jacket is fake leather. Possibly my issue
is that I'm used to wearing an old, heavy motorcycle jacket and this indy
feels like a windbreaker in comparison. I do appreciate your experience
though, and your post does help.)

[RockBottom]

Using a digital bathroom scale (an admittedly inexact method), mine weighs 4.4 lbs.

[Kt Templar]

(Edit: KT posted while I was writing.

Thanks for the words of reassurance, KT. As I said in an earlier post, I
don't think for a second that this jacket is fake leather. Possibly my issue
is that I'm used to wearing an old, heavy motorcycle jacket and this indy
feels like a windbreaker in comparison. I do appreciate your experience
though, and your post does help.)

You took that in the way it was meant (I wrote it very badly looking back! )

Yes, these jackets can be surprisingly light if you are used to motorcycle jackets. I've mailed lambskin jackets and including the wrapping it weighed less than 3.3lb, a cowhide (not predistressed) was more like 4.85lb

[Our best men]

Since Posting this topic, I've received the jacket and at this point I've had
it for 1 week. My concerns about quality were, for the most part,
unnecessary. I believe it's been said in another thread but since it's come
to be my opinion too, I'll say it here. The leather used, while not of the
highest quality or heaviest weight (I'm talking Oz. per square foot. Pre D
cowhide is, by my inexact measurements about a 2.50 Oz. leather, or
about 1mm thick.) is an appropriate leather for this jacket, in my opinion,
especially if you want one that will take some light weathering/distressing
easily and look great. Really, that's what this jacket is all about, looking
great.

It's current state:





It's kind of fun to compare these images to the ones of a week ago, when
the jacket was new.

Brian