With the Curve or Against the Curve?

[hollywood1340]

Since we lost the original, let us start again?
I'm a Delongis man myself, so that answers how I use a whip.

[Sergei]

I suppose this is similar to religion. There is no right way or wrong way. But my suggestion is to experiment with both. Ask yourself what feels best, then chose one way and stick with it. You will notice that over time, especially if you rotate your handle the natural curve will eventually break in all directions. The Delongis method for me is actually taking the muscle power of whipcracking - less is indeed, more.....

[Strider]

Pardon my ignorance - what is the Delongis method? I've heard that "muscling" a whip is bad for it.

[hollywood1340]

Using the whip along it's natural curve for use in stage and screen with the mentality of a martial artist. That is to say using your whole body to interact with the whip in a way that it's minimal effort on your part to get maximum effect out of the whip. "But isn't that how most whip artists do it?" Yes and no. Although you will find many who use the whip in this manner, they miss out on the mindset that Delongis enters into, and how that translates not only to the whip but into other weapons and emtpy hand. It's thinking beyond just the application of the body motion to the whip, but the application to other tools or weapons. If you've ever seen a picture of Mr. Delongis, you'll see it in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSb_hTRM8WU

[thefish]

Let me attempt to clarify, because this is a little weird to visualize, and most people do follow that whole "With the Natural Bias" thing, just not the way Hollywood is referring to.

The fundamental difference between the "DeLongis" method and the "WWAC/Whip Cracking Made Easy" method most whip crackers on here probably use, is this: When you are HOLDING the whip to crack it, you hold it "Spine Up" with the whip naturally curling downward and under the hand if coiled. The "DeLongis Method" reverses this, literally turning the whip upside down so that it is "Spine Down" with the natural curve of the whip curling UPWARD, causing the whip to naturally coil ABOVE the hand.

So, if you're holding the whip, naturally coiled, a la Indy when he's brushing the Tarantulas off his back in Raiders, (to give us all a shared frame of reference,) uncoil the whip, and rotate then handle in your hand 180 degrees. There you have it.

The video that Hollywood posted the link to doesn't really show what he's talking about, (other than the quality of Mr. DeLongis's work,) Which is really the whole point. You can't easily tell which direction the whip is naturally coiling.

The visual difference is very subtle, and completely unnoticeable to most audience members, but the difference to the thrower and potential target is a little more pronounced. The whip is now lacking the tendency to want to return to the coiled position, so the "Spring" effect that adds energy and speed to the crack is missing. The whip still cracks, but with far less force and at somewhat slower speeds, (meaning the majority of the thong of the whip APPEARS to be travelling slower through most of it's length. In order to crack, the tip does have to accelerate past mach 1, but the BULK of the thong of the whip is not.)

The advantages to this for stage and screen are pretty obvious. Slower speeds and less energy release mean better visual registration to the audience/camera and less potential danger to the person on the receiving end. This is the basis and one of the primary justifications for DeLongis throwing style.

Yes, yes, Hollywood. I know. You can throw some mean, fast, painful, and dangerous cracks using the DeLongis method as well. Sher-nuf! Anytime you accelerate a thin piece of leather faster than 750 MPH, it's gonna have potential to do damage. I agree. Having cut targets both ways, you'll hear no arguement from me. But my point is that USING this process is a good way of REMOVING some of that extra energy and speed that the whip wants to gain by curling back under when you throw the other way, because on a movie set you want your stunt guys to go home with as few bruises, cuts and abrasions as you can manage.

I didn't vote in the poll because these days I use both throwing styles pretty much equally, and have gotten to a point that I can easily rotate any of my whips to alternate between the "DeLongis" with-bias, (what I am now referring to as a "Supinated" throw to my students,) and the more common "WWAC" against-bias, (What I refer to as "Pronated") if need be for any necessity in performance. In fact, I practice cracking routines going back and forth, working on smooth transitions between one way and another. I teach both as well, and discuss the perceived merits/flaws of each.

If I'm working in closed spaces, want to keep the whip in a very tight circle around my body, or am wrapping/cutting small targets from a person, I use the "With Bias" "Supinated" throw.

If I want loud cracks, going for wide, more dramatic whip throws, am cutting tougher targets, or am wrapping an object I need to lock tightly, I throw "Against Bias" "Pronated".

I could do either. I could back off on the strength of my pronated cracks to do gentle wraps, or I could throw a little extra energy into my supinated cracks to cut tougher targets. But why? I let the whip do the work for me.

And while I don't EXCLUSIVELY throw supinated, I don't think I'm missing out on DeLongis's mindset. I actually like his approach, and have incorporated some of his philosophy, and that of is associate, Ron Andrews, along with the the "Against Bias" style of Mr. DeLongis's early whip teachers, Brian Chic and Robert Dante, into my own work, (much of it before I ever even saw his instruction method, so to quote the Bard, "Thou marshallest me the way I was going, and such an instrument I was to use...") In fact, I think I overstep DeLongis's philosophy at times and become a bit TOO esoteric in my whip-cracking mindset... But I have waxed supersonic enough already.

I'll save my treatise on "Zen and the Art of Whip Cracking" for some other day ;-)

-The Other Dan

[hollywood1340]

It is interesting to note the whip will do what it needs to do if left to it's own devices. As I break in my new IOAB I find that sometimes I'm with Supinated, someitmes pronated as the whip rotates in my hand. Plays #### if I have the wrist loop on. There are times I want it a certain way, but I'm learning the whip knows what it wants to do. I just help it on it's way.
I guess the biggest thing I notice is his follow through and footwork. It's in the same direction as the whip. I notice a lot of people throw they're hand into the ground following a figure, Mr. D lets it "die" keeping his hand in the same crack plane as the whip. The foot work is also to me at least an instant giveaway, there is no other whip teacher out there that I know of that emphises the use of the lower body to the extent Tony does. Watch McFly's latest video. Or Kendell Wells Fight Reel. Watch the feet in relation to the whip.
And therein one might say the subtle difference is.
The fact remains in the end it's considered "The Delongis" method for a reason of difference big enough to a.)Give the style it's own name that is instanly recognisable to those in the know b.)Do the same visualy as in "I'm guessing Delongis is involved" just seeing the whip move.
That to me says enough.