Smith & Wesson Model 22/Model of 1917

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:49 am

Is now available for California purchase.

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:45 pm

Picture please. Is this still available?

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:10 pm

Yes, still available.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... sFirearm=Y

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:34 pm

carebear wrote:Yes, still available.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... sFirearm=Y

FWIW these are going for nearly $300 below retail at the auction site. (Not sure if I'm allowed to mention its name.)

And coincidentally, I've just picked up my S&W Hand Ejector 2 (British proofs, converted to .45 AR/.45ACP). If I'm interpreting the s/n correctly, it was made around 1916 or 1917. Nice companion for my Webley Mk.VI (though the Webley requires .455 Webley ammo; not .45 ACP/.45 AR).

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:27 am

wow, that is a cool looking gun, with a very real pricey price. Now, as I understand, Indy's gun was this model in Raiders, but with a 4 inch barrel. If I were to get this model (after I win the lottery, most likely) can the barrel be shortened and keep the site as is? Obviously, I've never owned a real gun before, so I'd want to find someone or a class to learn about handling it and shooting it safely. I don't imagine that this would be one to take to a ComicCon convention.

MarkVII

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:42 am

Indiana MarkVII wrote:I'd want to find someone or a class to learn about handling it and shooting it safely.

In your location that should be a piece of cake. I knew a guy in Phoenix who would probably have been happy to instruct you. Unfortunately he is no longer among the living.

Still, I'm sure you can contact a local shooting range that offers instruction and rentals. Good luck, and be safe!

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:27 am

Indiana MKVII

That depends on how much you want to spend. There is not much that can't be done when it comes to firearms. The question is how fat is your checkbook? :evil:

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:41 pm

The Smith mod. 22 Classic is the best Indy gun reissue right now, IMO

TR

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:47 am

So if I got this brand new Model 22/1917 with it's 5 1/2 inch barrel, would my neighborhood gunsmith be able to cut it down to the Indy 4" length and keep the site, too? How would the shorter barrel affect the accuracy of the gun? I've always heard that a longer barrel is more accurate than a shorter one.

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:17 am

A gunsmith could shorten the barrel for you. But why cut a new barrel? Indiana Croft has a short replacement barrel (non-S&W) in Cairo Bazaar. I'd say get a shorter barrel and save the original.

A longer barrel will give you better accuracy and a higher muzzle velocity. But a shorter barrel is easier to conceal. IMO quickdraws are a myth (historically speaking), but a shorter barrel can be drawn more quickly.

As for me, I'm keeping mine original. (Well as original as it is, already having been converted decades ago for .45 AR/.45 ACP. Doncha hate it when that happens?)

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:40 am

Just a quick semantic correction.

The length of the barrel doesn't really effect the inherent accuracy of the gun (with the caveat that each gun is unique).

It does however do four things that can cause a perceived "loss of accuracy".

First, as stated above, a longer barrel will give the round more velocity by allowing more time for the bullet to be accelerated (once it leaves the barrel there is no gas pressure behind it, it is going as fast as it ever will). The (very) quick and dirty math is about 100 fps in speed difference for every inch of barrel length. What does that mean in real life? A little less impact energy and a slightly more parabolic trajectory to hit at any given range. Faster bullets shoot flatter and are effected by climactic conditions and gravity less. Within handgun ranges though it's more or less unnoticeable.

A side effect of this is increased muzzle flash and blast as there is more of the powder burning outside the barrel (think big muzzle flash), this can cause flinching. Flinching though is "accurate" in that the gun shoots where it's pointed, but the shooter moves it off of the target.

Another minor effect is less barrel means less metal which means less weight, this is going to increase felt recoil as the gun will have less mass to absorb it. Some folks are recoil-shy and this can also lead to flinching, again, a shooter, not a gun, problem.

The last effect of barrel length, and the one that contributes most to the perception of lower accuracy, is the shorter sight radius. It is easier to line up sights that are further apart as it allows for less margin of error given the limitations of the human eye. That's a big reason why almost everyone is more accurate with rifles than they are with handguns.

Last point, you can get actual used Smith 1917's on the online auction sites for much less than either the 4" or 5-1/2" new reproduction Smiths. You bid on them, win the auction, have it shipped to a local FFL (gun dealer) they do all the background paperwork and charge a small fee and you are still saving money to pay the gunsmith. I would also recommend tracking down a spare barrel to have cut down, they are also available on online sites. That leaves the gun able to be restored to it's true size should you ever sell it.

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:07 am

carebear wrote:First, as stated above, a longer barrel will give the round more velocity by allowing more time for the bullet to be accelerated (once it leaves the barrel there is no gas pressure behind it, it is going as fast as it ever will). The (very) quick and dirty math is about 100 fps in speed difference for every inch of barrel length. What does that mean in real life? A little less impact energy and a slightly more parabolic trajectory to hit at any given range. Faster bullets shoot flatter and are effected by climactic conditions and gravity less. Within handgun ranges though it's more or less unnoticeable.

Good summary. Often when posting on message boards one uses colloquial shortcuts. This is a better answer than mine. I think the biggest factor is the shorter sight radius.

I'm going to disagree though with muzzle flash being a factor, because in order to work the bullet must 'seal' against the rifling. The muzzle flash comes after the bullet has already left the barrel. However you are correct that muzzle flash and recoil can cause some people to flinch. Thus they may get into the habit of flinching before/as the hammer drops.

Re prices: According to Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson (Jim Supica and Richard Nahas, 2006) .45 Hand Ejector U.S. Army Model 1917 values are as follows:

Code: Select all

As New:  $2,000
Exc+:    $1,350
Exc:     $  950
VG:      $  700
Good:    $  475
Fair:    $  375
Poor:    $  275

Standard Catalog lists these prices for the .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd Model:

Code: Select all

As New:    N/A
Exc+:    $1,200
Exc:     $  650
VG:      $  450
Good:    $  325
Fair:    $  285
Poor:    $  200

And just a note to younger readers/gear collectors: Please remember that you must be at least 21 years old to purchase a handgun in the U.S.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:21 am

Oh, I agree that muzzle flash is only a mental factor on follow-up shots.

And I figured you knew the details, I couldn't sleep so figured I'd take the time to detail it for the non-shooters.

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:38 pm

Are we allowed to post links to gun auctions? The auctions are of course perfectly legal, but I don't know if posting links to them is in accordance with board rules. So I'm not going to post a link here, nor the name of the site, unless it is approved.

In any case, the site that calls itself 'The World's Largest Online Auction of Firearms and accessories' has an auction right now for a Brazilian contract S&W .45 Hand Ejector. It's been refinished, and there is some pitting under the blue. It also has modern rubber stocks on it. On the other hand it has a 4" barrel.

The auction ends tomorrow at 1225 Eastern time. There are six bids, and the current high bid is $165.99 (plus $25 shipping to your dealer, who would typically charge about $25 for the transfer). New S&W chequered wood stocks with the medallions cost about $60 from S&W.

OK, it's not a British HE2 in .455; but it's pretty darned close and much cheaper. (Average condition Brazilian contract 1917s generally go for 50% to 75% of U.S.-issue ones.)

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:36 pm

The Hand Ejector on that auction gun does not have a 4 inch barrel. It's the 5.5 version.

TR

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:45 pm

I didn't have my ruler.

There are two of them listed. The refinished one didn't look like 5.5", but I was just eyeballing it vs. my 6.5" one.

I stand corrected.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:59 pm

Yeah, the other one is right here in Vegas. I contacted the guy and was going to meet him today to look at it in person, but it's got a bid now, so I've written it off.

TR

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:04 pm

Is there another? I'm only seeing the ones in Wisconsin and Alabama. (Alabama guy's wack if he thinks he can sell it for $675.)

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:16 pm

yeah, its at $300 plus,,

TR

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:21 pm

Hm. Not seeing it. I must be using the wrong search terms.

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:52 am

The new "Classic" Model 1917 is a real gem. It's just about perfect as a home/self defense weapon. The reliability of a revolver coupled with the battle/street proven effectiveness of the .45 ACP round. (Full moon clips are real speed-loaders to boot.)