Time period correct ammo?

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:57 am

I was wondering just how would a live round for Indys S&W have looked back in 1936?

-Kim

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:12 am

The same as it does today.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am

Most likely just lead round nose bullets with brass shell casings.

Though hollow points had been introduced in WW1, they were disallowed by the Geneva Convention as being inhumaine (as if War was humaine in the FIRST place!

). Most soldiers got around that by cutting an 'X' in the soft nose of their lead bullets with their pocket knives so they did about the same damage as a hollow point. War creates innovations that some folks don't like to talk about.

Full metal jacket bullets came later based on more Geneva Convention discussions to produce an even MORE humaine approach to warfare, but the standard off the shelf ammuntion of the time period would have been round nose lead for his revolvers, and more than likely full metal jacketed bullets for his Browning, as those were a more reliable feeding round for semi-autio's.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:20 am

Yeah, what he said. 8-[

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:59 am

Ah, thanks Gentlemen.
What would we do with out Binks grand wisdom

Regards,
Kim

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:12 am

What would we do with out Binks grand wisdom

Let me ponder that for a moment.....

No, better yet, we best not go there....

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:35 am

K on the run wrote:Ah, thanks Gentlemen.
What would we do with out Binks grand wisdom

Regards,
Kim

An awful lot, that's for sure.

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:15 pm

The use of lead round nose bullets also would explain Indy's "in character" preference for large bore revolvers.

The standard .38 Special LRN 158 gr round was widely used by U.S. police for years. It was often known as "the widow maker," not for it's effect on the target, but because bad guys could soak up all six rounds from a cop's gun and still fight long enough to kill the cop. Yeah, they sometimes died later, but not soon enough.

The belief, then and now, was that if you using solid bullets, a larger bullet makes a bigger hole and causes more damage to the bad guy. That could by why Indy likes the .45 "N" frame revolvers over the smaller .38 Special "K" frame guns.

For Indy's Browning High Power, I'm sure he had FMJ loads. Those would be standard in the 9mm by then. Full power 9mm FMJ loads are amazingly penetrative, really over-penetrative, so Indy's shooting through three bad guys in the tank in LC with one shot isn't that far off the mark. (It's still Hollywood exageration, but there's a nugget of truth in there).

The disadvantage of the 9mm FMJ over the .45 from the revolver is the 9mm makes smaller holes. The BHP holds twice as many rounds as the revolver though, so it tends to even out.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:05 pm

That was actually the Hague Convention of 1899.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

Doesn't apply to non-signatories. (We're a nonsig BTW, as are most of the world), as with most international agreements though, we voluntarily go along to remain both civilized AND sovereign.

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:23 pm

Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:24 am

Canada Jones wrote:Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada

It depends on the country, the branch of service, and the unit.

You gotta remember that WWII was so big and lasted so long that it's fair to say that almost anything could have happened in that war.

In general, in the U.S., the U.S. Army Air Force issued the standard .45 1911A1 pistol to combat aircrew. That was the general policy, but, like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has documentary proof that some U.S. Army pilot, somewhere, was issued a .38 revolver instead.

n the U.S. Navy, the standard issue sidearm for pilots was a S&W .38 Special "Victory" model revolver. The Navy generally also issued a few rounds of .38 Special Tracer or "flare" ammo for signaling purposes. Maybe that was why the revolver was standard issue and the automatic was not. I don't know for sure.

Once again, if someone had evidence of a U.S. Navy pilot carrying a .45 1911 instead, I'd believe it. Standard issue was the .38 revolver though.

In Canada the Air Force would issue sidearms based on the UK pattern. I don't know for sure what "standard issue" would be for either country. I have seen references to aircrew being issued the .380/200 Enfield or Webly revolvers and I'm sure some may have carried the .380/200 S&W "Victory" Model (lend-lease) as well.

As far as pilots being given a choice, I'm sure it could have happened on an individual level, sometime, somewhere, but I doubt it was standard practice anywhere. To do that the unit would have to have both types of pistols, and ammo, and holsters, etc, in inventory. That would make things much more complicated then need be just to give the pilots a choice in something that had relatively little importance overall.

Like I said though, it was a big war, and somewhere, someplace, I'm sure some pilot went to check out a pistol and was asked, "Do you want the .38 or the .45?"

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:06 am

Canada Jones wrote:Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada

I forgot to add. There's actually a very good and interesting discussion on this issue over at The High Road right now. Check it out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... 571&page=2

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:32 am

Trebor wrote:
Canada Jones wrote:Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada
It depends on the country, the branch of service, and the unit.

You gotta remember that WWII was so big and lasted so long that it's fair to say that almost anything could have happened in that war.

In general, in the U.S., the U.S. Army Air Force issued the standard .45 1911A1 pistol to combat aircrew. That was the general policy, but, like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has documentary proof that some U.S. Army pilot, somewhere, was issued a .38 revolver instead.

n the U.S. Navy, the standard issue sidearm for pilots was a S&W .38 Special "Victory" model revolver. The Navy generally also issued a few rounds of .38 Special Tracer or "flare" ammo for signaling purposes. Maybe that was why the revolver was standard issue and the automatic was not. I don't know for sure.

Once again, if someone had evidence of a U.S. Navy pilot carrying a .45 1911 instead, I'd believe it. Standard issue was the .38 revolver though.

In Canada the Air Force would issue sidearms based on the UK pattern. I don't know for sure what "standard issue" would be for either country. I have seen references to aircrew being issued the .380/200 Enfield or Webly revolvers and I'm sure some may have carried the .380/200 S&W "Victory" Model (lend-lease) as well.

As far as pilots being given a choice, I'm sure it could have happened on an individual level, sometime, somewhere, but I doubt it was standard practice anywhere. To do that the unit would have to have both types of pistols, and ammo, and holsters, etc, in inventory. That would make things much more complicated then need be just to give the pilots a choice in something that had relatively little importance overall.

Like I said though, it was a big war, and somewhere, someplace, I'm sure some pilot went to check out a pistol and was asked, "Do you want the .38 or the .45?"

Thanks Tredor. The guy that told me this in high school used to read a lot of books on war and must have read that somewhere. I think your comments about the size and length of war makes sense. Lots going on so I am certain you are right about there being no one right answer. I checked out that link as well. Interesting.
best
Canada

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:49 am

There was also what you were 'issued', and what you chose to 'carry'.

I know (and knew) several combat pilots in my life who served in WW1, WW2 AND Viet Nam and told me they were never asked what they wanted, they were just issued what was given to their branch of service to issue. It was a 'take what you're given and work with it' situation.

Once they got back to the barracks, if it wasn't anything they felt comfortable carrying (most of them didn't LIKE the .38, as many still had personal memories or recently told stories by friends of the annemic .38's the military issued during WW1!), they'd store their issued weapons in their duffles or trunks, then wheel and deal for a good Colt .45. They'd carry THAT into combat, and when they shipped back out, the issued .38 was turned back in essentially unused, and they either took the .45 home with them or sold or traded it to an incoming pilot for THEM to carry.

The WW1 pilot I knew was one of the top aces of his day, and flew with Rickenbacker in France. He was a member of my brothers church. He told me they weren't issued a thing, but he carried a personally owned Colt New Service .45 with a 6 inch barrel, as his machine guns jammed all the time on his plane, and that and a stove lid were his prize possessions. Why a stove lid? To sit on, my friends....to SIT on. Remember, the plane at that time were nothing but wood and cloth. I bet you now can figure out why he sat on a stove lid and kept it close at hand when he had to fly.....

One of my best friends was a door gunner in Huey's in Viet Nam told me he was issued an M14 and a Smith Airchief .38 when he landed. He put them in his locker behind the lines, traded for a Colt .45 and a Thompson machine gun, and THAT'S what he carried during 2 tours of duty. When he went home, he turned in his unfired issued weapons, and literally handed his .45 and Thompson to a new pilot stepping off the plane coming incountry as he was climbing in to fly out!

After running all the way round the barn, bringing it back to Indy, this is why putting the Webley in Indy's holster never made a bit of sense to me. There's what you read in the books of 'what was done', and then there was the REAL world applications that soldiers DID to survive. Based on the storyline Lucas has spun, we know Indy was a soldier...a field man. He would KNOW to carry something that was useful in his line of work, and yet something he KNEW he could get ammo and parts for anywhere he was in the world. The Webley has NEVER fit that bill, but it's now part and parcel of his image, and that has NEVER set well with me.

Oh well....I'm rambling.....

Regards! Michaelson

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Michaelson wrote:When he went home, he turned in his unfired issued weapons, and literally handed his .45 and Thompson to a new pilot stepping off the plane coming incountry as he was climbing in to fly out!

If he only knew what that Thompson was worth now.....

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:27 pm

He knew....he also knew he couldn't get it out of country as they checked all incoming duffle bags to the U. S., so he decided may as well make the NEXT guy's tour of duty a bit 'safer'.

Regards! Michaelson

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:50 pm

Could not agree more about the lead bullets Michaelson. The lead is to soft and jams on the way up the ramp of my Kimber 1911. I still have about 900 .45acp reloads that are lead. They just dont feed well in autos from my dealing with them.

The only things I can think of that may be different other than the projectile part of the bullet would be internal. Such as non corrosive primers and maybe a little better powder. I dont think the rimless casing has changed any. The markings on the case may have changed over the years.

IndyParise · Post by **IndyParise** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:00 pm

As a matter of fact, I know several guys who dropped their AR-15s in Vietnam and stole, picked up, or bartered for AK-47s. Why? Because even after the Ak has been kicked through mud, filled with dirt, and shot out of your hands, it will still fire perfectly.

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:13 pm

Canada Jones wrote:Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada

The .38 Special round for the military was a 130 grain FMJ.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:42 am

Magnum Jones wrote:The lead is to soft and jams on the way up the ramp of my Kimber 1911. I still have about 900 .45acp reloads that are lead. They just dont feed well in autos from my dealing with them.

You need to find someone with a .45 acp revolver and sell or trade them to that individual. They fire just fine from those guns.

Regards! Michaelson

Terryhimself · Post by **Terryhimself** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:44 pm

One of the best feelings in the world,is being able to dump 6 big .45 Auto Rim rounds into either a S&W 1917/Hand Ejector or Webley. Both of my revolvers will use half moon clips and .45 A.C.P. but it just feels good to go with those big rimmed cartridges one at a time into each chamber. Most of these rounds I have found have been 230 grain lead roundnose and shoot point of aim. Life is good.....Terry

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:54 am

Michaelson wrote:I know (and knew) several combat pilots in my life who served in WW1...

Fascinating. Not too many WWI vets left by the time I came round. When I was five I had some prints of paintings of WWI aircraft in action. Really too good for a five-year-old. My best friend and I would paint cardboard boxes and pretend they were Fokker DR.Is and Sopwith Camels.

Michaelson wrote:He knew....he also knew he couldn't get it out of country as they checked all incoming duffle bags to the U. S. ...

I used to know a guy who planned to take home a GE minigun from Vietnam. He chickened out at the last minute and left it in the barracks. Everyone's belongings were checked before they boarded the homebound flight. Lucky he chickened out.

Back on topic, lead round-nose ammo seems to be fairly scarce. I found some .38 Special from Midway, but haven't had any luck tracking down .45 ACP for the HE2. (I'll still run FMJ through my 1991A1, and a 1911 when I get one.) Of course the Webley's .455 ammo only seems to be available in LRN, which is good. But about a dollar a pop when shipping is figured in.

I guess if I want a reliable source of LRN I'll have to pick up some .38 Spl and .45 ACP dies, along with .455 to save costs. Oh, and a reloading press would be a good thing too!

When the comes that I get reloading gear, does anyone know a source of LRN bullets?

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:22 am

The Pilot wrote:
Michaelson wrote:I know (and knew) several combat pilots in my life who served in WW1...
Fascinating. Not too many WWI vets left by the time I came round. When I was five I had some prints of paintings of WWI aircraft in action. Really too good for a five-year-old. My best friend and I would paint cardboard boxes and pretend they were Fokker DR.Is and Sopwith Camels.
Michaelson wrote:He knew....he also knew he couldn't get it out of country as they checked all incoming duffle bags to the U. S. ...
I used to know a guy who planned to take home a GE minigun from Vietnam. He chickened out at the last minute and left it in the barracks. Everyone's belongings were checked before they boarded the homebound flight. Lucky he chickened out.

Back on topic, lead round-nose ammo seems to be fairly scarce. I found some .38 Special from Midway, but haven't had any luck tracking down .45 ACP for the HE2. (I'll still run FMJ through my 1991A1, and a 1911 when I get one.) Of course the Webley's .455 ammo only seems to be available in LRN, which is good. But about a dollar a pop when shipping is figured in.

I guess if I want a reliable source of LRN I'll have to pick up some .38 Spl and .45 ACP dies, along with .455 to save costs. Oh, and a reloading press would be a good thing too!

When the comes that I get reloading gear, does anyone know a source of LRN bullets?

You can get new 230 grain LRN (.45 ACP) from Zero ammunition.

http://www.rozedist.com

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:27 am

Thanks. I'll check them out.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:32 am

The Pilot wrote:
Michaelson wrote:I know (and knew) several combat pilots in my life who served in WW1...
Fascinating. Not too many WWI vets left by the time I came round. When I was five I had some prints of paintings of WWI aircraft in action. Really too good for a five-year-old. My best friend and I would paint cardboard boxes and pretend they were Fokker DR.Is and Sopwith Camels.

They were well in their 90's back in the mid 1970's, and were both members of my brothers church, who was a minister at the time before his death in 1979.

One was actually a ground mechanic in the 'Hat in the Ring' Squadron, and the other a pilot, but after all these years I can not remember the gentleman's name now.

The pilot passed away just before my brother did, and I was fortunate to have one nice visit with him. That's when he told me about the stove top lid being his best friend in the air, next to his Colt New Service .45 revolver.

What was REALLY amusing about the Colt story was him telling me that it was a going away present from his MOM!!! She told him to be sure to shoot one of the Kaiser's devils for her!!

She must have been tougher than shoe leather herself!

I was hoping to see the Colt, but he had given it to his son the year before, but I DID get to see the old stove lid.

Regards! Michaelson

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:the 'Hat in the Ring' Squadron...

I DID get to see the old stove lid.

Man, now I want to go to a 94th Aero Squadron. But there are none up here. (Anyway, I'm making my own prime rib in 19 days. Their yard is more fun than mine is though.)

So, was the old stove lid dented?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:24 pm

No, it wasn't. Apparently it was always there for protection, but never hit in all his flights. It had some rust on it, and he kept it by the side of his bed all his life, even after his days in the service.

Odd. He gave away the Colt, but kept the lid for personal 'protection' against would be robbers at his home.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:44 pm

It wouldn't be the first time I heard of a veteran never touching another gun after returning from a war. Besides, how many folks can claim such a unique souvinier?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:47 pm

True, but then he kept the Colt until just before he died, so apparently he held the memory of the old lid to be a bit more dear than the gun given to him by his Mom.

Interesting.

Regards! Michaelson

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:26 am

Wouldn't Indy's ammo just as likely be 230 grain FMJ?

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:59 am

I'll defer to people who have studied this more closely than I, but I would suspect that .45 ACP FMJ would have been common. So my guess would be that Indy would use FMJ or LRN in his S&W depending on what he happened to buy.

I read a discussion here of whether the Browning was 'really' a Browning, or whether it was a 'film 1911' (i.e., whether Indy was supposed to have been using a 1911 but it was expedient to use the Browning for the film). If he was supposed to be using a 1911, then I'd suspect the rounds for the S&W would have been FMJ. (As I said, I haven't been able to get LRN .45 ACP so I don't know how well it functions in an automatic.)

But was the S&W 'supposed' to be a US .45 ACP, or a British surplus .455 converted to .45 ACP, or a British surplus .455? If the last, I'd say LRN.

In the end, it's a movie. Filmmakers often use what they have or what they can get instead of what's historically accurate. For example, would the Germans really have been using MP-38/40s in 1938? Or, how many Westerns set before 1873 have we seen where the cowboys are using Peacemakers (or Winchester Model 1873s or Model 1982s, for that matter)? Or WWII films where the Germans are flying P-47s or P-51s or ME-108s instead of ME-109s? Sometimes filmmakers make an effort, such as Clint Eastwood using cap-and-ball Colts in his Westerns or modifying T-6s/SNJs/Harvards to closely resemble Zeroes, Kates and Vals. Other times, if they make some sort of effort, they'll find something 'close enough'. Hence, P.38s and MP-38s/40s in LC. The accuracy of those props are not strictly important to the story (though they are very important to those of us who are 'into' them).

In regard to the ammunition, I'd say you really cant go wrong with either FMJ or LRN. From my limited point of view, .455 Webley is only available (nowadays, from Fiocchi) as LRN and LRN would be the 'real' prop. But for the .45s it can go either way. For me, based upon my own interest in firearms more than on the films, I would say FMJ in the automatics and LRN for the revolvers; but I wouldn't object to FMJ in the revolvers. Just no hollowpoints.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:06 am

but I wouldn't object to FMJ in the revolvers.

I would. It plays 'hob' on the rifling of a revolver.

Semi-auto's have/had harder barrels.

Regards! Michaelson

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:13 am

Michaelson wrote:
but I wouldn't object to FMJ in the revolvers.
I would. It plays 'hob' on the rifling of a revolver. Semi-auto's have/had harder barrels.

Regards! Michaelson

'splain Lucy. Most new .38, .357, and .44 loads are semi-jacketed soft points or hollow points.

Of course that doesn't included WC, SWC and LRN.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:24 am

We weren't talking about 'new', pigiron. We're talking about 1936 period ammo for the old 1917's and HE's, as I recall.

Regards! Michaelson

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:30 am

Michaelson wrote:I would. It plays 'hob' on the rifling of a revolver. Semi-auto's have/had harder barrels.

Which is why I was glad to hear where to get LRN .45 ACP

My HE2 will be fed some FMJ because that's what I have. But once I get LRN that's what will be going down the barrel.

It all depends on how much you shoot. If I were living back to the '30s when these revolvers were plentiful, it wouldn't be concerned about the ammunition. If the barrel wore out I could just replace it. And I likely wouldn't be putting a hundred rounds through it in an afternoon anyway. Today parts are harder to come by, and replacing things like barrels reduce the 'collector value'. So FMJ will be limited in my 80-year-old revolvers.

Anyway, I have other things to shoot (one of those is an airsoft

) so a few FMJ aren't going to be that bad.

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:52 am

Michaelson wrote:We weren't talking about 'new', pigiron. We're talking about 1936 period ammo for the old 1917's and HE's, as I recall.

Regards! Michaelson

Marone! Who knew?

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:55 am

As an aside, my Model 22 shoots point of aim with 230 grain loads. LRN is a RCH more accurate then FMJ.

200 grain SWC and 185 grain JHP shoot a bit low, but not so much that it can't be dealt with.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:57 am

pigirondan wrote:
Michaelson wrote:We weren't talking about 'new', pigiron. We're talking about 1936 period ammo for the old 1917's and HE's, as I recall.

Regards! Michaelson
Marone! Who knew?

The subject title tells the tale!

You're a lucky man to have one of those sweet Model 22's, my friend!

HIGH regard! Michaelson

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:00 pm

pigirondan wrote:As an aside, my Model 22 shoots point of aim with 230 grain loads. LRN is a RCH more accurate then FMJ.

200 grain SWC and 185 grain JHP shoot a bit low, but not so much that it can't be dealt with.

Hey, it just occurred to me that we're supposed to have sun tomorrow! (Freezing cold, but still sun.) I should take the shootin' irons out and see if the bullets go where I point. (If I'm in any shape after tonight's Christmas party.)

pigirondan · Post by **pigirondan** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:38 pm

Michaelson wrote:
pigirondan wrote:
Michaelson wrote:We weren't talking about 'new', pigiron. We're talking about 1936 period ammo for the old 1917's and HE's, as I recall.

Regards! Michaelson
Marone! Who knew?
The subject title tells the tale!

You're a lucky man to have one of those sweet Model 22's, my friend!

HIGH regard! Michaelson

N-Frames are hard to beat. Since S&W is getting such a strong response to their "Classics" my hope is they re-introduce the 38/44 Heavy Duty.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:16 pm

Now THAT would make a feller swoon if THAT happened......keeping my fingers crossed!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

LeatherneckJones · Post by **LeatherneckJones** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:27 pm

Trebor wrote:
Canada Jones wrote:Years ago a friend of mine told me that during World War 2 pilots had the choice between a .38 revolver or a .45 caliber pistol. Never been able to confirm this. Anyone know anything about this?
best
Canada
It depends on the country, the branch of service, and the unit.

You gotta remember that WWII was so big and lasted so long that it's fair to say that almost anything could have happened in that war.

In general, in the U.S., the U.S. Army Air Force issued the standard .45 1911A1 pistol to combat aircrew. That was the general policy, but, like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has documentary proof that some U.S. Army pilot, somewhere, was issued a .38 revolver instead.

n the U.S. Navy, the standard issue sidearm for pilots was a S&W .38 Special "Victory" model revolver. The Navy generally also issued a few rounds of .38 Special Tracer or "flare" ammo for signaling purposes. Maybe that was why the revolver was standard issue and the automatic was not. I don't know for sure.

Once again, if someone had evidence of a U.S. Navy pilot carrying a .45 1911 instead, I'd believe it. Standard issue was the .38 revolver though.

In Canada the Air Force would issue sidearms based on the UK pattern. I don't know for sure what "standard issue" would be for either country. I have seen references to aircrew being issued the .380/200 Enfield or Webly revolvers and I'm sure some may have carried the .380/200 S&W "Victory" Model (lend-lease) as well.

As far as pilots being given a choice, I'm sure it could have happened on an individual level, sometime, somewhere, but I doubt it was standard practice anywhere. To do that the unit would have to have both types of pistols, and ammo, and holsters, etc, in inventory. That would make things much more complicated then need be just to give the pilots a choice in something that had relatively little importance overall.

Like I said though, it was a big war, and somewhere, someplace, I'm sure some pilot went to check out a pistol and was asked, "Do you want the .38 or the .45?"

My grandfather, a Naval Aviator from 1943-1975, carried an M1917 .45 revolver during WWII. I don't know what he carried during the Korean War, but sometime in the late 50's aquired a good ol' M1911. (BTW, Gramps loves my HE2!)

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:37 pm

It's freezing outside, and I'm a bit tired from the party. I'll go shooting another day.

Hmph. Some adventurer I turned out to be.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:08 am

Your guns probably thank you anyway.

Regards! Michaelson

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:53 am

Michaelson wrote:Your guns probably thank you anyway.

They want to be used! (They told me. Alllllllll of my guns talk to me...

) But you're right. As I said in the Gear Care thread, it's snowing. Better to keep them dry.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:00 pm

It never bothered me to shoot new weapons in the cold....but when it comes to old weapons, I'm always a bit leery, as you're trusting the old metalury to stand high pressure and head in cold temps after so many years, and that's just something I'm not willing to do myself.

Regards! Michaelson

KingNothing · Post by **KingNothing** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:00 pm

Michaelson wrote:It never bothered me to shoot new weapons in the cold....but when it comes to old weapons, I'm always a bit leery, as you're trusting the old metalury to stand high pressure and head in cold temps after so many years, and that's just something I'm not willing to do myself.

Regards! Michaelson

That's why you need to have a minimum of 3 modern or newer firearms to be available to shoot. That's just common sense.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:57 pm

Absolutely!

Regards! Michaelson

The Pilot · Post by **The Pilot** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:08 pm

I went to a local sporting goods store today, and they had LRN .38 Special.

Rambler · Post by **Rambler** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:32 pm

I think they recently changed hands but still carry some fairly odd stuff especially in European rifle calibers.
Also, 2 different weights lead .38 spl
38 blanks
and 45 auto-rim

http://www.ows-ammo.com/catalog/

Regarding the .455 (Brit) vs .45ACP (US) issue for Indy.
From what I have read, that especially prior to WW2, the British (and other Euro ) calibers were far more prevalent throughout the world due to Empire building. The US firearms and ammo just were not that widely distributed. Even 9mm would have been a little tough to source in former British colonies in 1936 if it were not for those anachronistic MP40 mags to cannabilize from.

Time period correct ammo?

Time period correct ammo?

.45 Auto Rim Ammo

try old western scrounger