Get quote before sending jacket back for repair!

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 5:50 pm

I feel the need to let other people know about this before they do what I did. I noticed a few stitches popping out of my Wings indy goat jacket on the back strap by the d-rings. I thought hey, no big deal. 4 or 5 stitches were out at best and it looked pretty easy to rectify. These things happen. I was uncomfortable letting the old leather gut in town fix it, so I shipped it back to US Wings for repair with my credit card info enclosed on their repair form. When I checked my credit card bill online I almost passed out. $169.00!! I figured somebody misplaced a decimal or something and quickly contacted US Wings. After all, it only costs $50 to have a zipper or waistband replaced. They informed me they would check it out. As it turns out, they contract repair work like this out to a seamstress and the bill was indeed correct. She told US Wings it was "detailed" work which costs more and that is what she charged them. This isn't too far off from what I paid for the jacket during their sale. Needless to say my budget for any future jacket is shot for the moment. I am only trying to help out anyone who might do this in the future. For Gods sake get a quote before sending a jacket in, no matter how minor a repair seams.

(get it? seams)

Sincerely, Walker

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 5:58 pm

Uh, that's bull$hit. How long have you had your jacket? A stitching problem like that isn't your fault and should be the manufacturer's responsibility. Of course, I don't know what USWings' policy is but something stinks in Ohio just the same.

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:00 pm

I thought that these were built to 'mil-spec' and guaranteed. Is this not the case?

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:03 pm

Yikes! I would negotiate this. Maybe the staff here can intervene. I don't know the Sarge, but from the sounds of it, he is a reasonable businessman. And this is just plain, not good business. At least FS guarantees their seam work for the life of the jacket. You figure the competition must be par.

Just my .02...
-S

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:08 pm

I'm really sorry to hear that! That does seem way out of line, but that's probably one of those things they can't give you an exact quote on until they see the extent of work needed (doubtful). But it would be reasonable to assume that if the work was going to be that costly, or approaching that of a 'new' jacket, that they would at least try to contact you to see if you still wanted to proceed.

In hindsight, you probably should have at least first let that "old leather gut in town" give you an estimate first before sending it off to someone else.

I would definitely give Sarge a call!

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:08 pm

A rep from US Wings customer service left me a message apologizing for the cost. She says $150.00 is the cost the seamstress charged them for the repair. US Wings did offer to at least absorb the shipping charge. Next time I'll break out Moms old Singer and sew it myself.

Walker

Prescott · Post by **Prescott** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:09 pm

Sounds like US Wings may want to consider contracting out to a different seamstress. Off hand, I can't think of any part of the jacket that wouldn't be considered "detailed work". Give Sarge a call. I'd be willing to bet he could work something out with you...

-P-

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:11 pm

Rixter,

"Old leather gut" made it seem like it was no big deal. A 5 minute job. So I really did'nt give it much thought with regards to the price.

Walker

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:15 pm

Hind sight always being 20/20, maybe supplying the cc number with the order was to tempting a target for the seamstress to charge to.

Regards. Michaelson

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:16 pm

I'm not blaming Us Wings. They made right a previous jacket dilema for me by replacing a cooper indy jacket with one of the own ( the one I had repaired). Aside from the few stitches, the jacket was superb.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:19 pm

Well, if you're satisfied with the work, then that's the main thing. But thank you for the 'alert'. Fore -warned is fore- armed. High regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 7:51 am

I sent a Shearling B-6 jacket that I bought from Real McCoys
to a Aero leather in Scotland to shorten the jacket body by two inches
(McCoys said they couldn't fix their own jacket, and that I would
have to buy a new one which is bull****) and that was a VERY
detailed operation! They had to practically take the jacket apart
to shorten the zipper, move the side zippers up, shorten the
jacket and shorten the pockets and that WHOLE deal, including
shipping to Scotland and then back to me was only $100.00!!

There is no way in #### that little bit of fixing of the jacket
should have cost you that much money. You should absolutely
call your credit card company and dispute the charge! Do not
delay. If you wait too long, you will not be able to do it.

I bought a Wings Indy jacket two years ago, and when I got
it, the sleeves were about an inch and half too long for me.

I sent the jacket back, which was back to Cooper at that time,
and it only cost me $22.00 total for shortening the sleeves and
the return shipping.

You were ripped off, hands down! Do not take this lying down!
Fight the charge. It doesn't matter if Sarge is a "nice guy" or
not. Its his company and name on this stuff, and his company
stole from you. Period.

The only way that they could justify that cost is if they had to
take the whole jacket apart, and re-stitch the entire thing back
together.

I agree with Michealson. The people who you sent the jacket
to for repair had dollar signs over their heads when they saw
your credit card numbers.

And one other thing. Everyone says that Wings is now making
the their jackets "on sight". If this is so, why would they have
to "send the jacket to a seamstress" for repairs? If a vendor
makes the jackets on sight, then they should also do the repairs.

This leads me to believe that Wings is still farming out their
jackets to other people, and not making them "on site". I have
yet to hear or read about anyone who has had problems with
a Wings jacket send it back to Wings for a repair. Its always
being sent to somewhere else.

Think about it...

Flathead

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:27 am

I resewed the side straps on my USW vintage cow Indy jacket and lengthened the sleeves myself! And I'm not a seamstress, it was easy! There is no way that it's "detailed" work or whatever they termed it. All you have to do to access the side straps is open the sleeve lining, turn the jacket inside out through it, and TADA!, you can fix the stitching. Actually, I don't even think I had to turn it inside out for the straps sewing.

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:15 am

Thanks for the advise. I do really feel taken advantage of. If you could have seen how minor a repair I requested you would'nt believe it! I had an entire jacket altered from a 42 reg to a 40 reg by Peter for less than $100. With crazy fees like this I should have been a seamstress.

Walker

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:27 pm

I do really feel taken advantage of.

You shouldn't "feel" taken advantage of, you WERE taken
advantage of.

Please, call Sarge again and tell him that if he does not make
it right, that you are GOING TO dispute the charge on the card!
Do not wait!

The credit card companies are VERY helpful in these types
of matters as long as you don't wait more than about 30 to
60 days. Usually 60 from the date of the transaction, and 30
from the date of your last statement where the charge shows
up. If you wait longer than that, you WILL BE out of luck!

You were robbed, period! End of story. Say you and your
family were out at a restaraunt for dinner, and you used your
credit card to pay.

And then suppose at the end of the month you saw that the
restaraunt added an additional $170.00 to your dinner charge.
Would you protest it?

You should have paid no more than about $40.00 for what they
did to your jacket. It should even be less, but I am giving them
the benefit of the doubt.

If you don't do something about this, then Sarge and his
"seamstresses" will keep doing this to other people. It is
ultimately Sarge who has to step up to the plate and correct
this or it will ABSOLUTELY hurt HIS business not the seamstress!

Imagine if Wested or Flightsuits did this? We would never buy
a new jacket for fear of it needing to be sent back if there was
a mistke made. And they do make mistakes, thats true with any
vendor. But mistakes should never cost the buyer an arm and
a leg to fix. Wested and Flightsuits almost ALWAYS fix mistakes
for free, minus shipping.

Don't delay! Fix this now, don't sit on it!

Flathead

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:56 pm

I contacted US Wings customer service and requested the contact info on the seamstress. They did'nt give me a name or number to contact her directly.

They told me to e-mail the company with a notification for the seamstress regarding the charge. I have already contacted my cc company and put the charge in dispute, thanks to your advice flathead. I would like to think the Sarge is not aware of what this person is doing regarding repairs. According to US Wings, they are charged for the repair and then pass along that same charge to the customer. Either way I refuse to be raked over the coals for five minutes work.

Thanks
Walker

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:39 pm

I contacted US Wings customer service and requested the contact info on the seamstress. They did'nt give me a name or number to contact her directly. They told me to e-mail the company with a notification for the seamstress regarding the charge.

This really sounds fishy to me. Why would a company not give a
customer the number of the place that ripped them off? Why, because
I have a sneaking feeling that Wings is still getting their jackets from
some other place, and not making them "on site" as he says. Why, if
you are making a product on site, and claim to do so because of
"quality control issues" would you then farm out the jacket to someone
else to fix? No other company I know of does this. If you make a
product, you also service said product.

I have already contacted my cc company and put the charge in dispute, thanks to your advice flathead. I would like to think the Sarge is not aware of what this person is doing regarding repairs

I am glad to hear you are not going to let anyone rip you off! The credit
card companies are really great when it comes to this kind of thing. I
had the dispute with my McCoys B-6, and they sent me a jacket that
was not made to the correct body length, and when I tried to send it back
for an exchange, they refused to give me a new one. I called the credit card
company, but unfortunately it was too late for me. I had waited too long
to do anything. BUT, the lady on the phone did say that if I had acted
faster, they most certaintly could have got my money back from McCoys.

And Sarge has to know this is going on. Yours is not the first jacket that
has been sent back since he is no longer using Cooper. I will say that you
would have never had this problem if it was a Cooper jacket. They stick
by their product.

So much for Sarge and his "keeping an eye on quality control" statement.

Flathead

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:54 pm

I recently sent my uswings jacket, which was an exchange for a larger size, to get the sleeves fixed and the hem at the bottom of the jacket. The reason I got this jacket was because the first one I got had major problems with the bottom hem not being sewn or glued. If this jacket comes back to me with huge fees I'm getting my money back.

This problem that Walker had sounds smaller and easier to fix than mine. If I get charged for anything, even shipping, on this I'm going to be furious and fight it at all cost because I refuse to pay for something that was not made correctly to begin with. I mean, my jacket was right of of the bag and had quality problems which should have been picked up and fixed before the jacket left the warehouse in Ohio.

I'll keep you all posted on my situation too. It seems to me like Sarge is letting his reputation slip, and that is not good for this hobby, us or Sarge. I keep thinking to myself that I should have gone with a Wested in the first place.

Luke
<><

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:37 pm

Now, I'm not one to put up with @#$% like this from ANY vendor. And for sure, there is something not at all right about being charged almost the price of a new jacket to fix the side straps on one that should have been done right in the first place. BUT, in all of this mudslinging here, I've not heard YET whether or not you have actually spoken to Sarge personally about this. If so, and he has refused to address it to your satisfaction, then I can see Wings being blasted around here. But unless he's been given notification and a chance to not only rectify the situation but to address the QC problems he seems to be having (as well as customer service), then as usual, I feel like we need to tone down the heat here.

This has been forwarded to Sarge. Hopefully he will come on and address this whole thing personally. If not, then I hope Walker is able to get in touch with him and get it resolved to his satisfaction. If he isn't, then I hope he does exactly what he did and come on here and report it....forewarned is, indeed, forearmed as Michaelson says. But he started this as a warning to others to make sure they talked with Sarge before they sent anything back to them. I agree that something definately doesn't seem right about having to send a jacket off to a seamstress to get work like that done....unless Sarge is in the middle of using his operaion solely for supplying the military during its war efforts-IN WHICH CASE, he wouldn't have time or resources to mess with something as small as a side strap coming loose on an Indy jacket. THAT could be the reason why he had to contract the work out. As for charging Walker...well, they had to charge him what the woman charged them....

I know that Sarge is not out to cheat anyone. And before we go throwing accusations like that around, I just think someone should have at least talked with the man.

Just my opinion....
Later!
Indydawg

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:32 pm

No I have not yet addressed the situation with Sarge, which is why I'm not blaming him for this cost issue. Up to now I have only spoken to Wings customer service. They have asked me to e-mail the repair seamstress at US wings regarding my alarm at the cost. I have done this and will wait for a reply. Nonetheless I am going to make Sarge aware of it. This stuff can't be good for business and he's done right by me before.

Walker

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:36 pm

I just got word back from Sarge that he knows NOTHING about this situation at all!!! Not from his CS people, not from QC...not from anyone until I emailed him that he was getting blasted for something he knew nothing about. He's, understandably, VERY interested at getting at the bottom of this, so I suggest you email him personally at either info@uswings.com or sgt.hack@uswings.com and take this up with him.

I also would recommend anyone else who ever has a problem with any of the vendors' products-go directly to the source. If you talk to customer service and you aren't happy, then document it and go over their heads. I've had so much trouble talking with people at Wested that there is only ONE person I will talk to over there-Peter. I never talk to anyone at US Wings but Sarge. Not to say he doesn't have good people, but it just makes more sense to go straight to the man who can take care of you.

I can assure anyone who cares to take the time to ask, Sarge WILL take care of you. If there's a problem and it's HIS bad, he will make it right. I've seen it happen too many times to not know it's true.

I'll forward this over to Sarge, Walker, so he'll be expecting your email.
Later!
Indydawg

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:44 pm

Walker, I hope you got my PM, seems as though I've had some trouble with them lately.

misterindy · Post by **misterindy** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:23 pm

Holy Lord that is UNREAL man!!!

I'm really sorry to hear about this Walker and I hope this gets resolved soon. I wonder why US Wings did not contact you with a quote or estimate about the repairs like a good auto mechanic would???? At that point you could have accepted or rejected the work. For a third party contractor to charge you ridiculous prices for work without your permission is just wrong man. Also I wonder if that's illegal??? If you know anyone who's an attorney i'd give them a call for further actions to be taken because that price for labor is a scam plain and simple. I appreciate you sharing this. Let the buyer beware!!!!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:32 pm

Everybody needs to calm down. IndyDawg is very right about this. Occassionally things like this happen. And I am saying that I am a guilty party here as well, when I voiced my opinion on something that was not right with this situation. But I maintain that our policy here at COW, is that the vendor in question should be contacted first before voicing it here. You have to place yourself in the vendor's boots and let them get first crack at fixing the problem. I (we) know most of the major vendors here and they are all very credible people here that have demonstrated actions in the past that they will do absolutely the right thing. I am absolutely sure that Sarge will get this right. So let's just calm down.

Walker, let's give time to Sarge to react.

-Sergei

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:10 am

I agree with Sergei, and Indydawg here. Although my experience with Sarge was based on a somewhat different problem, I found Sgt. Hack very sensitive to his reputation and any problem you may have, but you must first make an effort to talk with him personally before airing too much of whatever problem you’re experiencing on the board when he’s not even aware of what it is. He does run a rather large operation afterall.

The gist of my message, if you did not get it the other day, before things started getting ‘nasty’ here was:

You need to go around customer service and get in contact with Sarge directly. If they won’t connect you with him, send an email directly to his attention with your number and the hours you are available, and ask him to call and just state it is a matter of importance that he contact you, but don’t go into detail about you’re problem until you talk with him in person...

One on one conversations with the person in charge is always the best route to solving any problem, IMHO.

G' Luck!

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:16 am

But I maintain that our policy here at COW, is that the vendor in question should be contacted first before
voicing it here. You have to place yourself in the vendor's boots and let them get first crack at fixing the problem.

He did this very thing by the way. If you read his posts, he did
say that he did get in touch with Wings Customer Service, and
they told him that they were sorry, but they could only give him
back his shipping! The $169.00 still stands!

If you try to get in touch with a vendor per their instructions,
which Walker did by e-mailing them at the address provided, then
you did what you were told to do by that vendor.

Also, ignorance is no excuse for poor quality control. Any
business is either successful or not because of the people that
work there, period! If people are not doing their job, you get
rid of them, or your business will suffer. Anyone who owns their
own business knows this. Its just good business practice.

Also, even if Sarge knows nothing about this, he should know
about all the quality issues that have come up lately. There is
just too many to ignore anylonger. For someone like rixter to have to send
their jacket back, multiple times now in order to
get one that is made correctly is just not good.

I think Sarge is a fair man too. But your are only as good as
the people that work for you. Remember its not THEIR reputation
thats on the line here, its HIS!

I hope he does do right by Walker. If not, Walker has taken
the nessessary steps to protect himself, and all the rest of us
by posting this problem. And being ripped off by $169.00 is
absolutely a PROBLEM!

And I will agree with Indydawg about the fact that Sarge may
be doing his bit for the war. But this problem is still a VERY BIG
problem. Its not like the guy asked to have the entire jacket
re-stitched for gods sake. Bad business practice is bad business
practice.

Flathead

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:01 am

I agree with you that there does seem to be a pretty serious QC issue here that does need to be addressed....but here's the way it is-

Sarge does not come on the forum. He relies on the staff here (myself and Michaelson, ususally) to inform him of problems when they come up at the forum. Unfortunately, when they come up at the forum, they sometimes tend to be ones that have NOT come directly to him yet. THAT is where the problem lies. This forum is full of folks who have had problems with Wings jackets, have contacted their customer service, only to be told "tough titty", and then have come on the forum to blast Wings and Sarge.

The problem is that, after we've notified Sarge of the problem, he knows nothing about it because he's just that busy...he is the CEO, after all and doesn't exactly hang out in the receptionist area. However, once he's contacted by us, he tells us to tell the person with the problem to call him personally and he'll get it worked out.

Now, you can see that all of this passing around accusation and innuendo is totally unecessary because if the person with the problem just goes straight to Sarge in the first place (NOT what Walker has done-he went to CS), then the problem gets resolved without all this.

Sure...Sarge needs to know that there are problems....but this is not the place to do it. If someone has a problem with Sarge's product, he wants to know about it personally so he can do something about it.

My advice to you, Flathead? I like your energy and passion-you've got a good sense of what should be. YOU email Sarge your suggestions personally. He really appreciates someone who is direct and up front, personally, with him. He'll appreciate your help.

Later!
Indydawg

PS-And don't worry about Walker...if he gets in touch with Sarge, he will make it right. OR, I hold with Walker's actions to date.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:39 am

Sometimes frustrations can get the better of you, and it is hard not to voice your frustrations here with the guys and gals.

The only problem that I see, is this. Many of his customers(non gerheads) don't know that they can have our fine staff here to intercede for them, or that the CEO is accessable. What about them? You normally go through the company's red tape to get an issue resolved, but there seems to be a firewall here. CEOS are fairly inacessable sometimes, although this may not be the case here. I do think that this problem will be resolved when you finally get to talk to the head honcho. Fedora

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:54 am

But, I know that when I get frustrated with companies (which is more freqently that I would care to admit), I always try to take it to the highest person possible. NO WAY to I ever let an issue stop with the customer service people....unless they resolve it. If it comes to it, I make it a point to try and get in touch with the head guy/girl as soon as possible. I know that is not everyone's practice and I'm also as guilty as the next man of coming on here to "vent" my frustrations.

But, the venting can get out of hand and the problem still isn't any closer to being resolved than it was before. It really just makes the problem bigger.

Now, if this ends up helping Sarge take care of a problem he's got on his end, then I say it has served a noble purpose. But no company is without fault....I've seen FS jackets with the worst wandering stitch lines and loose stitching on the side straps myself. We seem to hold our vendors up to a paradigm of perfection, not realizing or seeing how everyone makes a mistake every now and then. Is this a rash of mistakes? Well, it would seem so, but think about how many jackets of his that have been shipped within the same time period that DIDN'T have problems...he ships several thousand jackets a week, ya know....as much as we like to think, we aren't the center of the universe

....

But, he certainly needs to address these QC and CS issues. And I believe he will.
Later!
Indydawg

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:40 am

I took peoples advice and side stepped CS this morning. I sent an e-mail directly to Sarge notifying him of this charge. He should be aware of it today. I can't imagine a good businessman such as him condoning such charges. I'll keep members up to speed on what comes of it.

Thanks,
Walker

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:15 am

That ought to take care of it!
Let us know whether or not it turns out for you!
Later!
Indydawg

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:06 am

Now, you can see that all of this passing around accusation and innuendo is totally unecessary because if the person
with the problem just goes straight to Sarge in the first place (NOT what Walker has done-he went to CS)

Unfortunately, not everyone here has Sarges personal e-mail,
and is on a first name basis with the guy. When someone has
a problem with a vendors product, they will follow the guidelines
set down by that vendor. Like Fedora said, not everyone has
the knowledge of this forum. They don't know Sarge like you do.
Just like Walker did, they follow what the company says to do in
order to fix the problem.

Walkers very first time at trying to get a jacket fixed was done
by the book according to Wings. If you have a problem, you call
customer service. Thats what he did, and they sent him to a place
that ripped him off. Those are FACTS, not hearsay or inuendo or
mudslinging. Its FACTS.

Now, suppose you are having a problem with your water
heater at home? You go down in the basement, you look around
for a phone number off of the thing, or maybe you have it
in the manuals that came with the thing, and you call what number?
Huh? Why the number that says, "If you have any problems,
please call customer support". How are you going to get the
number or address of the guy who owns the water heater
company? You follow the guidelines set forth by the company
when you first have a problem. Thats just what has happened
in this case. It was the first time at trying to fix the problem.

The second time trying was that the Customer Service
department at Wings said, Oh well, were sorry, but all we can
give you is your shipping back.

Now is the third time. Now is the time for getting Sarge involved
in his companies business practices. Walker has followed what
was required of him right from the start.

Its easy to loose sight of a problem when it happens to someone
we know. But not everyone knows Sarge personally, and not
everyone knows about these types of forums to get information
like that.

I know Sarge will probably make it right. But I also have a
problem with Rixters situation, where he sent the jackets back
multiple times for the same type of problem. The hems were
coming unglued. And right out of the box mind you!

Most companies I know of, if you have a problem like that, they
will check the product that they are exchanging for you to make
very sure that it does not exsist on that one! But to go thru
the same thing so many times? Where is the quality control
Sarge spoke of? I know the first Old Cow jacket I bought from
Sarge two years ago had the stitching coming out in multiple
places. When I wrote directly to Sarge, he sent me another e-mail
address to contact about the return and exchange. And guess
where that was? Neil Cooper. After my initial purchase, all other
issues I had to take up with Cooper, not Wings. And as a matter
of fact, the second jacket I got did not have the Wings logo in it!
It only had the Cooper logo.

And, other people besides us complained about the jackets that
Wings was selling from Cooper right? And what did Sarge do?
He stopped having them make the jackets for Wings. So its not
like he does not know of quality issues from other folks than us,
or he would never have cut his ties with Cooper. Cooper screwed
up too many times, and Sarge did something about it.

Now the exact same thing is happening to Sarge. Put yourself
in the Militarys place. What if Sarge is making the jackets for
our forces, and the hems kept coming apart? Do you honestly
think the military would put up with this? NO! They would find
another vendor to make their products. Thats just what
Sarge did when he stopped getting his jackets made by Cooper.
He was ticked and did something about it.

Forums like this are an invaluable tool to help people make their
choices where to spend their hard earned cash! Think about the
poor guy who doesn't know about this forum, and he got rapped
with a $169.00 charge, and doesn't know what to do, or where
to turn for help? He may think that he is the only one that this
has happened too, and he will just turn tail and take it.

But now, suppose, that same guy was a member of our forum,
and he reads the problems that people have. And he PM's them
or asks questions right on the forum about a certain product, or
a certain vendor.

He can now make his choice which one to give his money to.
And which ones he might want to stay away from because
there products seem to have more problems than another.

Think about Cooper. How many people on this forum have looked
at the information we have posted about Coopers quaility issues,
and they stayed away from buying a Cooper jacket?

It works both ways. Feedback is the only way anyone who
makes a product can ever improve on said product.

Flathead

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:26 am

Flathead....you're making something personal that isn't. And yes, everyone does have Sarge's email address...it's right there on the US Wings website...info@uswings.com He checks it very regularly.

You make good points, I give you that. But you do throw around accusation and innuendo...you said that Sarge was trying to cheat people. Whether that is by default (via the seamstress) or by selling shoddy product, that's what you're saying. And unless you have unequivocal proof positive that what you're saying is the case, then I just don't think you should say it.

But you're completely right about one thing...this forum IS the place for voicing concerns over quality issues and such as that. But it isn't the place for calling people criminals and cheats....unless it has been proven that is the case. These terms have been thrown around too lightly here, and THAT is what I have a problem with...not the voicing of concerns. Walker did exactly what he should have done-I just wish he would have tried to contact Sarge directly first. But the other stuff is not cool at all. I think any staff member here would tell you so.

So, put your torch and pitchfork down, man

!
Highest Regards!
Indydawg

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:29 am

No offense, but I think Indydawg is letting his personal connection to Sgt. Hack get in the way here. Walker has done nothing wrong by coming here and informing us of his situation with USWings. He did exactly as he was supposed to. The whole purpose of a customer service department in any company is to deal with anomalies in production so that management doesn't have to field every call personally.

I work at a video game company and you can bet that the General Manager doesn't get bothered by individuals with software bugs. That is what Tech Support is for. I had a problem with Amazon.com a few weeks back and I had to resolve the issue exclusively through their customer service. I wasn't able to give Jeff Bezos a call and have him work it out for me.

Fedora is correct that not everyone knows that Sgt. Hack is available for personal interdiction. So they deal with customer support just like everyone else. What's the point of USWings having a CS line if one should just go directly to the top in the first place? This whole thing about not voicing ones problems with a vendor before going directly to the top is ridiculous. With any other non-gear related product there wouldn't be a problem of voicing one's concerns after going through the company's SOP for complaints.

(EDIT: Looks like Flathead beat me to the punch on many of my points.)

Kit Walker · Post by **Kit Walker** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:48 am

No offense to anyone here, but it appears to me that Indydawg's concern (and Dawg correct me if I'm wrong) is not with Walker's actions but rather with the comments made throughout this thread in reference to Sarge's character and business practices with out a single person talking to Sarge directly to find out his view on the subject.
I personally have never dealt with Wings so as such I have no stake in this and that's why I held off as long as I did. But based solely on what I've read on this thread this is my opinion.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:00 pm

I didn't say Walker did anything wrong!!!! Where did I say that? Read my statement again and tell me where I said Walker did anything wrong.
What I said was wrong was calling Sarge a cheat and a criminal when there is no definitive proof that he is.

THAT is all I said!

Personal relationships do NOT enter into any consideration in ANY staff members' duties around here moderating the discussions on this board. I'd have said the SAME thing if Wested or Flightsuits was being blasted here. And I resent the #### out of that statement.

As for not voicing concerns unless you've talked directly with the head honcho of ANY of our vendors-I agree it is a grey area. MY personal policy is to try and talk with as high a person as possible with whatever company I'm dealing with...whether it be a vacuum cleaner manufacturer (we're currently dealing with Bissel about a carpet cleaner that broke after one use and I'm still trying to get through to the head person) or one of our own vendors. I do NOT have a problem with coming on the forum to talk about vendors after several attempts have been made to resolve issues. But in this case, anyone who pays attention at all around here knows that Sarge will take care of problems that otherwise might not get taken care of if he is informed. Now, the end result is the same, but when it's posted here, it just gets to Sarge indirectly when the issue could have just been taken straight to him. Which one is better? I dunno....does it really matter in the end? I suppose not, as long as Walker is happy and satisfied with the end result. If he isn't, then man...come on here and open season on US Wings.

The problem is the inflammatory remarks that are always made when something like this comes up. The "criminal", and "cheat" comments. Surely you can see how those can be problematic and downright libelous.

Let's just watch the rhetoric....that's ALL I've been trying to say.

Indydawg

PS-Thanks, CB....you're absolutely right-that's exactly what I meant.

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:14 pm

FLATHEAD wrote: I know Sarge will probably make it right. But I also have a
problem with Rixters situation, where he sent the jackets back
multiple times for the same type of problem. The hems were
coming unglued. And right out of the box mind you!

I think you mean skywlkrinc's situation

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:26 pm

I think you mean skywlkrinc's situation

Sorry dude. Your correct. I got my people mixed up!

By the way, what has happened to your situation anyway?
Did you deside to go with a fourth Wings jacket, or did you
go with another vendor?

Flathead

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:34 pm

FLATHEAD wrote:
I think you mean skywlkrinc's situation
Sorry dude. Your correct. I got my people mixed up!

By the way, what has happened to your situation anyway?
Did you deside to go with a fourth Wings jacket, or did you
go with another vendor?

Flathead

I decided to give Sarge the benefit of the doubt and went for the fourth wings jacket. It's been about three weeks since I sent the third jacket back, but I'm still waiting on the arrival of the fourth. If the turnaround is consistent witht he last two jackets, this one should show up on my doorstep today. We'll see.

Luke

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:36 pm

The problem is the inflammatory remarks that are always made when something like this comes up. The "criminal",
and "cheat" comments. Surely you can see how those can be problematic and downright libelous.

I am by know means saying that anyone at Wings ripped Walker
off! On the contrary! Its the people that Sarge is using to do
his "fixing" that ripped off Walker. It was an outside vendor that
Sarge must use to contract out his other work. There is no way
in heck that just fixing a simple side strap should cost $169.00
when I had both my sleeves re-done and it only cost me $22.50!
And that included the return shipping to me!

But think about this for a minute. Why wouldn't Sarge give
Walker the seamstress's name and e-mail address of the company
for this? Is this not the very thing you said about going over
customer services head to the owner? Who owns this seamstress
company, and why are they ripping people off? He asked for
this information just like you are saying that you do if you have
problems that are not solved on the first go around. How is
this any different? Walker wanted to go to the people that
were ultimately responsible for his loss. If that is not Wings,
then who is it if they won't give out that information?

I know that Sarge will make good. Lets just hope he gets rid
of whoever he uses for the "fixing" and hires a good seamstress
just he did with Cooper when he was having his problems with
them!

Flathead

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:40 pm

skywlkrinc:

Just out of curiousity, how much have you spent on your shipping
back and forth to Wings for this matter? Have they re-imbursed
you for any of this ping-ponging back and forth?

Flathead

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:43 pm

FLATHEAD wrote:skywlkrinc:

Just out of curiousity, how much have you spent on your shipping
back and forth to Wings for this matter? Have they re-imbursed
you for any of this ping-ponging back and forth?

Flathead

Shipping has been 12 bucks each time with no reimbursment, but wings hasn't charged me any return shipping.

Luke

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:49 pm

Very true...

But it wasn't Sarge that didn't give out that information. It was the CS people and you know as well as I do that about half the time those folks don't know their ### from a hole in the ground. Maybe once Sarge is brought into it, Walker WILL get the name of that person. I sure hope so...we need to know who they are so NO ONE ever does business with them!

And I certainly agree with you on your second sentiment...let's hope he gets someone new after this. 162.00 is WAY too much to just restitch a side strap. I think we're all in agreement on that!
Later!
Indydawg

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:54 pm

Shipping has been 12 bucks each time with no reimbursment

Just for your information, on Wings own website, in their
"Return Policy" section, they clearly say that if any of their
products are defective, or its their fault the problem occured,
they will "reimburse up to $10.00 return shipping charges".

That is right from their own site. I would ask Sarge to give
you the $30.00 back for having to send the jacket back three
times due to their mistakes.

He said this, you should hold him to it.

Flathead

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:04 pm

FLATHEAD wrote:
Just for your information, on Wings own website, in their
"Return Policy" section, they clearly say that if any of their
products are defective, or its their fault the problem occured,
they will "reimburse up to $10.00 return shipping charges".

That is right from their own site. I would ask Sarge to give
you the $30.00 back for having to send the jacket back three
times due to their mistakes.

He said this, you should hold him to it.

Flathead

Hmm.....I neglected to notice this. I think I'll do that. Thanks for the heads up. Except the first jacket return was my fault because I ordered a size which was too small.

Luke

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:15 pm

I don't want to fan the flames any further, but the whole thing sounds to me like a misunderstanding. The $169 sounds to me like an "at fault" jacket repair charge. US Wings does have a quality garauntee. In this case it would have been best to talk to Sarge personally. He probably would have had you send him the jacket and then he would have assesed if the stitching was faulty or if you damaged the jacket through misuse (which I doubt you did). It sounds to me like you got a straight up repair charge. Most quality manufactures do have a jacket repair service. The whole incident is unfortunate. Cheers

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:18 pm

Very good eye, Flathead!

Yeah....I'd ask for my money back too.
Later!
Indydawg

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:26 pm

I agree with Cuyahoga here...But, Walker spent all this time contacting customer service on something that was obviously a GROSS error an Wing's part - "CS" is supposed to "serve the customer" someone should have realized the mistake and taken action, IE talking to a manager or the Sarge. Walker shouldnt have had to spend his time and effort to try and resolve this....FLATEHEAD and The_edge had good points as well IMHO -

High Regards

IJ

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:56 pm

FLATEHEAD and The_edge had good points as well IMHO

Most of my points are usually found on my head! No, wait,
I didn't admit to that did I? Oh well too late, just call me pinhead...

Flathead

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:32 pm

Indydawg speaks the truth! Just got my e-mail returned by Sgt. Hack. He checked out the problem and stated that my bill had been mixed up with someone elses by mistake. He is only charging me for the shipping on the jacket. Bypass all those customer service yahoos should you ever experience a problem with US Wings in the future. Whew!! Now maybe my wife will start speaking to me again. Thanks Sarge.

Walker

Get quote before sending jacket back for repair!

Get quote before sending jacket back for repair!

Ok, folks...

Hey, Walker...

Well, Flathead...

That's true...

Good for you!!!

What we got here is...failure to communicate....

LOL...

True, Flathead...

Good eye!

Update on USWings repair bill