The Trend for a Disproportionately High Crown Front

[Satipo]

Looking at different examples of fedoras here, I've noticed that some, when viewed side on, seem to be too high at the front of the crown in relation to the back. I realize there is a general tendency among gearheads to exaggerate the overall height of the crown to replicate what they see on screen - in some cases creating a kind of caricature of the movie hat. But is it me, or is there also a trend among some to exaggerate the front much more than the back? Is this done out of personal preference, or is it the result of misunderstanding the correct dimensions? What is generally accepted as the correct difference in heights here?

[IndyBlues]

I think alot of the hats that you see may not have the correct block shape to begin with, and when you compensate for that, you end up with a "caricature" hat. like you described.
My AB Deluxe, and the AB Rabbit have only 1/2" difference from front and back.
'Blues

[Chewbacca Jones]

There should be sort of notch at the top of the front crease, very slight, that is sometimes neglected. It's amazing how much taller a hat can look without it.

Also, I think that the film hat looks like it has a very deep center crease, which causes people to bring the back down too much. The worst "offenders" also have more taper than other hats. So, in a way, people exaggerate the back at least as often as the front.

So much goes into the loook of a hat, and actual measurements aren't everything. The head it sits on, the colors, the block, the bash, the felt, even the lighting! It all factors in.

[FloatinJoe]

Well, I'm probably one of those people. I just measured mine and I've got about an 1 1/4" drop from the from the front to the back. The front measures in at 5" and the rear at 3 3/4". There is a slight increase in the center at 5 1/4".

I think it might have been done as an attempt at screen accuracy, but it has definitely turned into my personal style... I really like the profile of the hat. I'm still not entirely happy with the swoop on the brim, but I love it the same.

Oh yeah, it's an AdventureBilt.

Mike

[Johnny Fedora]

Mike, is that the hat in your avitar? I've seen that picture and I think one other and it looks great, and the brim looks just fine to my eyes.

Johnny

[FloatinJoe]

Mike, is that the hat in your avitar? I've seen that picture and I think one other and it looks great, and the brim looks just fine to my eyes.

Johnny

Johnny, unfortunately it's not. That hat belongs to Indiana Tone (believe he has a new screen name nowadays). However, that was the model for mine. I loved the way his came out.

I have to say that I think mine drifted away from SA. I have a really tight pinch on mine with two different size dents on the sides. I love my hat and the way it looks. I'll have to see about posting some pics. Maybe I can get some this weekend at the QM.

Mike

[Johnny Fedora]

You know man, every one of our hats takes on a life of its own. Thats part of the fun. Anyway, yeah take pics...awww darn. QM. I was hoping to make it this year...oh well, have a drink for me, and watch your wallet. Bink lurks 'round every corner.

Johnny

[FloatinJoe]

Oh and just on a side note... Indiana Tone's hat was and is the best Indy fedora I've ever seen. He nailed it so ridiculously well. I'm glad I got a chance to see it.

Mike

[Chewbacca Jones]

Oh and just on a side note... Indiana Tone's hat was and is the best Indy fedora I've ever seen. He nailed it so ridiculously well. I'm glad I got a chance to see it.

Mike

It's amazing what he can do with an Indy hat, isn't it!?!

[BendingOak]

I'm with CJ on this one 1/4 inch is about it for my lids. I've seen hats that have the back highe than the front??? Strange.

[Satipo]

I've seen hats that have the back higher than the front??? Strange.

That'll be replicating the Young Indy hat, no?

[Fedora]

You know, when I first started making hats, I made them 5 3/4 open crown. Once folks started to post pics of my hats, on their heads, I saw right away, they were all too tall if film accuracy was important. I agonized over this for a bit, and then started blocking them at 5 1/2, and immedietely saw this was closer to the right crown height.

The hats in possession of the costumer for Indy 4 were 5 1/2 open crown HJs. So, it seems that when I dropped the heights, I was doing the right thing.

On a Raiders fedora, I think the creased crown height varied from 4 1/2 to 5 at the front crease, (depending upon the scene) and the back was creaesed at 4 1/2 to 3 3/4 depending upon the scene. The taller heights were on the exterior temple hat that were not creased as deeply, as what followed.

But, most of what we see on the film is a 4 3/4 front, 4 inch back, which was used on the CS hat, well, almost, as it is 4 3/4 by 4 1/4.


In Raiders, once he gets inside the temple, one of the hats used was creased low in the back, and high in the front. Lower in the back than the rest of the film, IMO. Fedora

[airforceindy]

The hats I've noticed this phenomena on most are Art Fawcett's custom and refurb fedoras, not necessarily Indys. Don't get me wrong here, if there are any Vintage Silhuettes (sp?) fans out there, I LOVE Art's work, so this is not a bad thing. I simply don't recall any Indy hats that have shown a DRAMATIC height difference from stem to stern.

Regards, Andy

[BendingOak]

I've seen hats that have the back higher than the front??? Strange.

That'll be replicating the Young Indy hat, no?

I don't know as I never seen the show. It just hurts me to see the bck higher than the fron and so many people do it that way. i think they are trying to get the front of the " humps " to show.

[Fedora]

I simply don't recall any Indy hats that have shown a DRAMATIC height difference from stem to stern.

I am unclear. Are you saying you have not seen any hats in the film that were lower in back than the front? Or, are you saying Art does not make his hats like this?

If it is the former, just watch the interior Temple scenes, and you will get a good look at the back being alot lower than the front(which may explain Aeris's tapered Raider fedora pics that he posted on another thread as an exampe that the Raiders hat was tapered like the current HJs.)

You can take an untapered hat, and make it appear tapered, but you can't take a tapered hat and make it appear not tapered. Not using the typical Indy creases that we are all familiar with at any rate.

The tapered hats we see in Raiders were a "creased in" taper as opposed to the block being tapered. You can get this taper, by dropping down the back creased height, or you can simple squeeze in the top of the crown to to get this look. Fedora

[Indiana G]

but you can't take a tapered hat and make it appear not tapered. Not using the typical Indy creases that we are all familiar with at any rate.

bingo. you can get a tapered hat to look straight if you install a teardrop crown....not sa at all but looks good in the mirror.

[Fedora]

bingo. you can get a tapered hat to look straight if you install a teardrop crown....not sa at all but looks good in the mirror.

Yep, and I can take a tapered hat and CHEAT to make it look untapered, and the cheating would show itself if you could show a 360 of the hat, like with a video. I could make the tapred hat look untapered, but only from certain angles. But as I said, that is cheating. Not that anyone would do that, but it is possible to do so.

On the current HJs, the soft ones, you can get it to look more untapered if you added stiffener to the crown..........but since the original Raiders hat was a soft hat, this is cheating too!!! If you can't pull off the Raiders look with the orginal soft felt, then something is WRONG with the blockshape. Period. But you guys already knew this stuff. Fedora

[Satipo]

On the current HJs, the soft ones, you can get it to look more untapered if you added stiffener to the crown..........but since the original Raiders hat was a soft hat, this is cheating too!!! If you can't pull off the Raiders look with the orginal soft felt, then something is WRONG with the blockshape. Period. But you guys already knew this stuff. Fedora

But, Fedora, when you re-block one of these HJs, aren't you erasing the hat's memory of it's previous tapered block?

[Fedora]

Quote Sure you can. You can even take a tapered hat to the point of exaggeration if you wanted. Unquote


Maybe you can, but I can't. And after 10 years of watching the HJs, you seem to be the only one that can pull this off. Kudos to you. Of course, the angle of those pics that you posted are from below, and I would be curious to see what a brand new HJ would look like, after you did the creases fron different angles.

If the HJ you speak of would already pull off the Raiders look, why did you send it to have JP reblock it? If what HJ is using today, IS the Raiders blockshape, there would be no need for you to have it reblocked, to my way of thinking.

I have one HJ left here, and one that was about to be reblocked and sent out to a guy in Canada. I will post pics of what it looks like open crown, and then I will crease it, trying the best that I have learned over the years. I will spend 30 minutes on it which is 10 times the time I spend on creasing any hat.

I think you either got an anomaly in the HJ you bought, or it was one like the German site sold that actually had a non Poet block on it. I think you are sincere in your statements, I just don't think you and I are working on the same hat!!

I find it impossible to crease a tapered hat so it is not tapered.(I am talking about a hat that has the same amount of taper, as the HJs that I get from SAB) If was a newbie to this, that would be one thing, but I have creased thousands of hats to date. And, your results don't jive with my own. There has to be a reason. But, a show and tell is in order, and if I can pull this off, this time around, I will say so, and say so in pictures for all to see.

If I can't do it, I will have to assume your HJ was not like the numerous HJs I have rebloced for Indy Mag. So, stay tuned!! Fedora

[Indiana G]

I have one HJ left here, and one that was about to be reblocked and sent out to a guy in Canada.

is that mine you're playing with steve? hope you got indy's message from me.....pour on the stiffener my friend!!! i need that tight pinch forever seaeled like the crate the ark is stored in. but if you can't get it to sit, a nice TOD bridge pinch will work too.

ac, i've played with one of my todd's hj's to the point that its past ratty soc stage. i couldn't get it to how you got your in picture A.....maybe our head shapes are different or you do indeed have the magic touch....i'm leaning towards the latter

[Fedora]

Ok, I just spent 15 minutes, not 30 styling the HJ. This is the BEST that I could come up with. Here it is, out of the box, open crown, as recieved.



After putting the creases in, and trying to get it with less taper, this is the best that I could do.




And a little different angle from the front.



Now I can't get this look here from this blockshape.



But I can get it with NO problem from my blockshape. Here it is.




If the current HJ IS the original block used, anyone should be able to get this this straighter look with no trouble, and no expertise at all. You should be able to just put the creases in, without pulling out the magic wand. The creases should go in to give you this look. If you smash the hat, or put the top crease in too deep, you should be able to get it to taper.

I stand my my original assertion. But this means that the HJ that I get is not the same as Aeris got.

I creased this HJ at 4 3/4 front, 4 on the back. If I dropped it down to less than 4 on the back, and 4 1/2 on the front, the hat would even be more tapered than it is with the mentioned height of creases.

The above pics of the new HJ, is exactly what I have seen over the years from HJ. And the reason that I went in search of a more accurate block.

So, if I can't make it look good, I am completely puzzled. But, it backs up what I have said for years. Now, let this hat get damp, and the taper will be so great, only a TOD fan would want the hat.


If you like how the HJ looks, buy one. If you are after something else, look for a straighter blocked hat. I was never satisfied with the above look, and it isn't like I don't know how to crease an Indy hat. I think I made my case, but if you have doubts, get yourself an HJ. But don't expect it to look any different, if from SAB. regards, Fedora

[GCR]

First off, I've been following this debate very closely and have been thoroughly enjoying every minute of it.

Second, I have a question for FEDORA: Steve, out of curiousity, what size is that HJ you experimented with? I'm just wondering if that hat is the same size as the HJ Aeris has. I believe Aeris' hat is about a 7 1/8, if I remember correctly. I'd be curious to see the results of a similar experiment with an HJ of the same size (if they are different).

Thirdly, that HJ that Aeris has, if it is the same one he got from G-MANN, is one of the HJs from Todd's costumes. Not sure if the Todd's HJs are the same as the SAB version or not. That could also be a contributing factor.

Fourth, I remember seeing pictures of Aeris_Tone's HJ back when it still belonged to G-MANN. Now, I know Tone has some definite skills when it comes to bashing a fedora, but G-MANN is no slouch in that department either, and try as he might, G-MANN wasn't able to get much of a Raiders look from that same hat. He posted several pictures of the hat at his own site, from various angles, and it was pretty clear the blockshape wasn't cut out for a Raiders look, so he decided to send it to Tone. This makes me curious as to what methods Tone/Aeris used to get such a convincing Raiders bash out of that hat. And this isn't some sort of veiled accusation here, I'm legitimately curious as to what AC does when he bashes a hat.

-GCR

[FloatinJoe]

The hats I've noticed this phenomena on most are Art Fawcett's custom and refurb fedoras, not necessarily Indys. Don't get me wrong here, if there are any Vintage Silhuettes (sp?) fans out there, I LOVE Art's work, so this is not a bad thing. I simply don't recall any Indy hats that have shown a DRAMATIC height difference from stem to stern.

Regards, Andy

Andy, I actually have my grandfather's "Adams" hat. It has a tremendous drop between the front and back, but it does have a teardrop dent.

Tone, is that you hiding under a new name? You need to say hi sometime... might be driving through Arizona in the near future.

Mike

[Indiana G]

hey gcr,

if i can throw some wood on the fire here, i have in my keeping both an sab and several todd's hj's. i've found my sab a little different than the todd's for sure. for one, the sab felt was thicker. secondly, the sab hj looked to have a straighter block shape front to back whereas the todd's hj has the front to back taper.

both hats will definitely NOT come out as good of a raiders hat as an ab would. the sab hj can be styled like the tod bridge hat and keep it's sides rather straight whereas the todd's hj will still have the taper when the soft pinch is put in.

but perhaps you hit on something here. my todd's hj's were all size 58 whereas my sab hj was a size 57.....at least that is one confirmed difference in the block shapes between the 2 that i own.

[GCR]

I'm sorry, guys. What part of the pictures I posted are you missing? Is my new monitor now showing straighter hats when they're really tapered, too? Is there a major difference between those? Let's start there before we bring out the shiney nickels and attempts to call me a liar for the third year in a row.

Okay, first off, I never called you a liar. What part of

And this isn't some sort of veiled accusation here,

are YOU missing?

Secondly, those pictures are very nice, but, like everything else you seem to have posted on this subject, they prove nothing. You have every right to your opinion about the Raiders block. What rubs me the wrong way here, is the manner in which you present it. You act as though you've unlocked some secret mystery of the Raiders hat that has been sitting right in front of our faces all this time and we're all apprently too stupid to see it. You present this idea of a common blockshape throughout the original Indy films as if it were fact, with very little evidence to back it up. And instead of trying to come up with some kind of solid evidence or something else that will further explain your theory, you simply post some pictures of how pretty your hats look.

How about something CONCRETE? How about explaining HOW you did it? What is everyone else apparently missing?

You can't change a dung heap into a pile of gold and not expect people to ask some questions...

-GCR

[GCR]

hey gcr,

if i can throw some wood on the fire here, i have in my keeping both an sab and several todd's hj's. i've found my sab a little different than the todd's for sure. for one, the sab felt was thicker. secondly, the sab hj looked to have a straighter block shape front to back whereas the todd's hj has the front to back taper.

both hats will definitely NOT come out as good of a raiders hat as an ab would. the sab hj can be styled like the tod bridge hat and keep it's sides rather straight whereas the todd's hj will still have the taper when the soft pinch is put in.

but perhaps you hit on something here. my todd's hj's were all size 58 whereas my sab hj was a size 57.....at least that is one confirmed difference in the block shapes between the 2 that i own.

Here we go, a perfect example of variations to the blockshape in HJs in different size ranges and from different sources. If HJ can't keep all of their current hats consistent, how the heck can we believe they're still using the same blocks they used over 20 years ago? Or that they even used the same blocks throughout the 1980's?

-GCR

[airforceindy]

I simply don't recall any Indy hats that have shown a DRAMATIC height difference from stem to stern.

I am unclear. Are you saying you have not seen any hats in the film that were lower in back than the front? Or, are you saying Art does not make his hats like this?

If it is the former, just watch the interior Temple scenes, and you will get a good look at the back being alot lower than the front(which may explain Aeris's tapered Raider fedora pics that he posted on another thread as an exampe that the Raiders hat was tapered like the current HJs.)

You can take an untapered hat, and make it appear tapered, but you can't take a tapered hat and make it appear not tapered. Not using the typical Indy creases that we are all familiar with at any rate.

The tapered hats we see in Raiders were a "creased in" taper as opposed to the block being tapered. You can get this taper, by dropping down the back creased height, or you can simple squeeze in the top of the crown to to get this look. Fedora

Not at all, Steve, I was just referring to currently produced 'fedoras', including but not restricted to Indys. The most distinctive (pronounced) front-to-back drop that I've seen (outside of the films, and other films of that period) is in Art's hats. Not a good or bad thing, just an observation.
..slowly headed for the Plymouth!
Regards, Andy

[Indiana G]

easy ac, gcr....lets both cool off a bit. ac's got a right to post his view as this is what this forum is all about. without digging into these deep questions, as AC and 3thou have done there is nothing to refute or anything else to study about this raiders block enigma.

i never called you a liar ac, and i never would. i just want to state that the hj's i've handled could never give me the results i want that an ab could....and heck it took me 4 hj's to figure that out.....duh....i could have bout a jacka whip and a wested lc for that venture

now to the pics.....the brim. something we've never touched on. maybe it's the width of my face but i could never get this close with the stock hj....2 1/2" and 2 3/4" dim cut is too small for me. i need another 1/8" to play the part:



and i could never get my hj's to look this 'poofy' from the back:



both are the same hat and both are waaaay further along than any hj i've had.

now my waterfall ab shows how full the block is. my hj's cannot pull this look off due to the natural taper on the sides and the front to back taper that is standard on todd's offering:



my opinion is the hj's i have received, i have bashed into oblivion and will never pull off these looks at these angles as easy as the ab does out of the box (the box that's usually crushed by mr. ups guy ).

perhaps it's something in a size 57 todd's hj that i have been missing as i've only played with size 58's.....i don't know. your front views of the hj are bang on to what's on the screen but i have yet to see these oblique views from an hj that pulls off what we all covet. i've tried and i couldn't do it. i wish someone could post a pic of an hj that does work at this angle.....then we can reallistically start arguing about something

[Indiana G]

the top 2 is the same rabbit ab and the bottom one is my beaver ab.....where fedora forgot to turn her......sorry steve, i'm not gonna let you live that down.....even though you made me fall in love with a non-turned hat

ac, you don't want to see what's left of my hj's. i can't work the magic that you can

[GCR]

Aww, are you all angry now and revealing that non-existent "veiled accusation" you said wasn't there? Only took one post to flush that out.

Anthony, I'm not looking for a flame war here. And, as far as I can see, I have not yet called you a liar. In fact, I've made it very clear several times that I do not believe you are lying. No need to be childish here. I don't think you are lying. I would SINCERELY like to know how you got a hat that looked as crummy as that HJ into a pretty decent Raiders hat. Seems like a legitmate question to me, no?

As for how you like or dislike the way I present my opinions, that's really tough ####. Last time I looked my responses weren't based on how Griff_GCR likes or dislikes how I present info. But really, you little #####, don't make it personal just because you had a drink or two and feel a bit bigger than normal, or the fact that you know there're a ton of people in your corner already on the issue regarding the hat.

Now, now...I'm not making it personal. I was merely offering an explanation as to why I might have come off as a bit "gruff" in my dismissals of your "evidence". Usually, I could care less how you present your theories, (I still find them interesting, albeit incredibly far fetched) but you won't seem to let this one go, and rather than start a new thread to proclaim your alternate history of the HJ block, you keep popping up in various threads that, in some cases, don't really have a whole lot to do with what you're talking about (like this one). It gets frustrating when you bring up your theory time and time again, without any substantial evidence to back it up, yet always with the same old "look, it's the same block, and it's right in front of your faces, just look at my screencaps!" attitude.

As for proof. I've been trying to post pictures that show evidence of the hat being the Poet block from back then. The fact that my hat looks "pretty" is secondary.

Looking forward to finally seeing something on that.

As for the technique. I find it surprising that you've forgotten the very technique I was describing to you in length in chat on another forum over ten months ago. Whether this was before or after you asked what could be done with your rabbit AB to look better I don't remember. But we discussed it. It's the video that you, Seuss, and even Pitfall have seen regarding the sides.

I haven't forgotten anything...in fact I've got that whole PM saved. It was very valuable info, and I thank you again for it. So you're saying there wasn't anything beyond that done to that stock HJ from G-MANN to get it looking like that? (AGAIN, NOT AN ACCUSATION, MERELY CURIOUS AS TO WHETHER YOU'VE ADDED ANY STEPS TO YOUR HAT-BASHING ROUTINE SINCE THEN)

So while "nothing" is ever proven, and you don't have a hidden agenda, what is it that you can't see in the pics I have posted trying to show that perhaps the block hasn't changed? I've posted quite a few now that indicate the Raiders block may not have been so different as it was thought.

Hidden agenda? Hardly...I simply think you're wrong, and for the most part, Fedora is correct. Just a difference of opinion, I've heard that can happen from time to time. As for the pictures, I see a hat bashed to look like the Raiders hat. I don't see THE Raiders hat. Similarities? yes, but plenty of differences, too.

You saying my observations about the hat are invalid simply because I don't sell hats or what? If not, then YES, you are flat out calling me a liar, or at the very least, don't like "the way" in which I present information.

No, your opinions are not invalid...neither are Steve's, although you seem to be implying that because he happens to be a vendor. I simply don't agree with you, yet I am still genuinely curious as to why you believe the HJ block is the same after all this time, despite a fair amount of evidence to the contrary.

As for solid evidence, LOOK AT THE PICTURES! If you don't like my screencaps go take your own. Don't know how many versions of "proof" you want to see, but don't shut your eyes just because you don't want to believe simply from spite (or especially cause you don't like the way Aeris states things). What nothing proof have I shown? Four or five instances of speculative PROOF that keeps getting bantered away with excuses, that's what.

I don't need to take any new screencaps, because I am not the one trying to disprove the generally accepted theory that the Raiders block was *gasp* different than the block used in Temple of Doom and Last Crusade (you know, those other two Indy movies where the hat looked completely different?). You want to yap on about how the blocks were the same and everyone else has it wrong about the Raiders block, fine...keep on truckin'. Just don't be surprised if people get their feathers ruffled when you don't have anything other than some "select" screen-caps and side-by-side comparisons of your own hat at certain angles to back it up.

What I see in your "evidence" is pretty much exactly what I see in 90% of the pictures of other people's hats on this forum, nice looking, sure, but certainly nothing definitive. Technically, your theory would hold more weight if you were actually working with a hat that was Ford's size. Granted, that doesn't make sense for you since that's not YOUR size, but how can you determine ANYTHING about blockshape when it could easily flucuate from size to size (Indiana G's HJs for example).

-GCR

[Indiana G]

ac, i will try to post tomorrow night. i have some time as all the girls will be out of the house, so it's just me and sparky

as for now, it's beddybye.......

any particular angle you want me to concentrate on?

[Fedora]

Oh, the size of the HJ that I posted is a 59, which I am now reblocking to G's size. (got the stiffener request)

But in the dozens I have gotten in from SAB, in all sizes, they were all identical in blockshape. No difference in blockshape from size to size. And alll came with what we used to call the "atomic brim" I actually ironed out some of the atomic brim on the above hat, so it would look more like an Indy fedora.

I think Aeris deserves kudos, because he can pull off what me, or any other of us here can do. And that puzzles me, greatly. To me the HJ just does not lend itself to the Raiders look, but one guy can do it. Since I mess with hats more than anyone here, and I can't do it, I am puzzled.


To some, the fact that I make hats, gives me less credibility, and I am a bit put off by that honestly. Mostly because making and selling hats was never part of any plan that I had. I was one of many, years ago that were not pleased with the offerings of that era, and only after spending 7500 bucks on various hats did I give up and entertained the idea of making my own block, so at least I could be satified. I then shared this block by doing free reblocks if you wore my size. Only when Sharpetoyes literally forced me into making my own hats, and provided me a list of suppliers did I make the move. Don't believe it, just ask him.


Now, I need to just go on and bring this up. When I noticed Tone(Aeris) taking up the banner of re-opening the debate of the blockshape for the Raiders fedora, I received an email, or pm, stating that Tone was in cahoots with JP, and had some sort of deal worked up with him in regards to pushing his hats here on the forum and other Indy boards. And then JP did not come through with the promised deal. Pehaps this is a lie, created by someone who wanted to start trouble, and I never told anyone about it, until now.

So, when Tone started his threads on the blocks, I ASSUMED this was due to an ulteriour motive, and not a guy seeking any sort of truth. And, I have basically viewed his hat posts clouded with that accusation for quite some time now. I mean, basically, Tone was saying, if you read between the lines, that all of those years I spent were a waste of time, and the hat was the same in the films. I never gave it much credence, since I figured he had a hidden agenda, based upon what one man told me.

Now, I don't know if this ever happened or not. But the guy that told me is credible, and a member of G-Manns's site. And I just got this email or pm, out of the blue. I shared it with Marc, but we never talked about it. And have never mentioned it to anyone until now.

But honestly, right or wrong, I figured this was what was going on. If it is untrue, don't blame me, because I have kept it to myself, and Marc, until now. But with the innuendos I have read, it is time to reveal it.

The good thing about this is the AB stands on its on merit, and nothing that I say, or Marc says means much, if you are not satisfied with what we make, i.e. our vision of the Raiders fedora. All of my customers were not satified with what they got from various vendors, and I now have thousands of very dedicated fans of our hats. The hats speak for themselves. Of course, all of those guys could be idiots, and should have bought an HJ, but I ain't buying that. The numbers are just too large.


And, I am particularly gratified that our hats matched what the costumer had on hand, in proportions and blockshape to his sample from one of the films, that George had stashed away at his home. In all honesty, he did say that we had caricatured the hat just a little, with our orginal Raiders blockshape, but the new Raiders blockshape I had sent was what he needed, and that is how that block got chosen. This told both Marc and myself, that we were on the right track, and had been for years.

When you add his observation, and then you look at the 8 o'clock hat in that HJ catalog, which is different from the rest, that seems to be as much evidence as we will ever get that the Raiders hat was definetely different. It satisfied me,and it satisfied Marc, and it would be impossible to change our minds now. They did not want what you see in the current HJ! Because it did not match the HJ sample that they had. You can ignore this if you want, but to do so is a huge mistake. And it makes anyone question agendas. My and Marc's agenda was always to make the most accurate hat we could, with the stress being on the straighter hats we see in Raiders, as that is what most liked, and what we both liked.

I know for a fact that we are on the right path, but that does not mean I will not argue the point, as I like to argue. And I am respectful enough to do this while not calling anyone a nut. At least on this board. I am not so gentlemanly at other venues when I think someone is peeing on my leg and telling me it is raining. But here, I am as nice as you will ever see me.

I think Aeris was capable of making the HJ looks the most Raideresque of any modern HJ I have seen. I don't know how he did it, I just know that I can't do it, without changing the original blockshape it came with.

Have I doubted it? Certainly, I have, because it flies in the face of years of experience. It does not make sense, and if it does not make sense, I HAVE to doubt. That is normal. I can't be faulted for that, surely.

And Aeris, if you never tried to work up a deal with JP, with you schilling for his hats, in exchange for something, SOMEONE told a huge lie on you, although I cannot imagine what the motive for doing so would be.

And for the record, I have never been involved in any schilling for the AB. The ABs took off so fast, and sold like hotcakes that the last thing that I need is a schill. Heck, I did not even know what a schill was until last year!!

And really, I am not serving myself very well by even arguing any of these points, but I just like to argue, it is my nature. But I never argue anything that I do not think I am correct on. I don't argue just for the sake of arguing. I have to feel very strongly about something to argue.

I guess my last word should be, an AB will be on Indy's head in the new film. We got there by beating out numerous other hatters, who could not match what they had in hand. That should be enough, and arguing should be moot. But we continue......... Regard, Fedora

[GCR]

Now, I need to just go on and bring this up. When I noticed Tone(Aeris) taking up the banner of re-opening the debate of the blockshape for the Raiders fedora, I received an email, or pm, stating that Tone was in cahoots with JP, and had some sort of deal worked up with him in regards to pushing his hats here on the forum and other Indy boards. And then JP did not come through with the promised deal. Pehaps this is a lie, created by someone who wanted to start trouble, and I never told anyone about it, until now.

So, when Tone started his threads on the blocks, I ASSUMED this was due to an ulteriour motive, and not a guy seeking any sort of truth. And, I have basically viewed his hat posts clouded with that accusation for quite some time now. I mean, basically, Tone was saying, if you read between the lines, that all of those years I spent were a waste of time, and the hat was the same in the films. I never gave it much credence, since I figured he had a hidden agenda, based upon what one man told me.

Now, I don't know if this ever happened or not. But the guy that told me is credible, and a member of G-Manns's site. And I just got this email or pm, out of the blue. I shared it with Marc, but we never talked about it. And have never mentioned it to anyone until now.

For the record, the person who PM'ed this info to Fedora was NOT me.

Without delving further into topics that could prove incindiary, or engaging in any personal attacks, I just want to make a few points:

I do not think Tone "cheated" when he bashed this HJ initially. I don't doubt the man's skills when it comes to bashing hats. But simply because Tone was successful getting a good Raiders look out of his HJ, does not mean the HJ block hasn't changed and it does not prove the HJ block was the same throughout the three Indy films.

Tone, how do you explain the existence of the vintage HJ's with a blockshape that differs from the HJ's of today? And how do you explain the vintage HJ block bearing such a strinking resemblance to the Raiders HJ when bashed? Knowing that HJ did indeed use a block like this in the years leading up to Raiders, a block that yielded incredibly Raiders accurate results when bashed, what makes you believe they would have used a different blockshape (a blockshape that everyone BUT YOU seems to have trouble with when it comes to getting a Raiders look) for the film, when the similarities between the vintage HJ and the Raiders HJ are far greater than the similarities between the Raiders HJ and the ToD or LC HJ? I've said before, the these vintage HJ's, with the blockshape intact, are essentially the smoking gun. Even though they don't prove the Raiders hat used this blockshape, they prove the blockshape existed and was in use on HJ fedoras prior to Raiders.

I, personally, find it far more likely that the Raiders hat was blocked on that vintage HJ block, and that the percieved taper in the Raiders hat is simply due to the depth of the center dent being deeper in back and causing more taper in some scenes. I don't see what the big mystery is here...

One thing to consider which tends to be overlooked is the fact that head / hat size, face shape, block shape AND the hat bash itself ALL play a part in how good or "SA" a particular hat looks on someone. AC's Raiders HJ might look crummy on someone else of the same size. A modern HJ in Ford's size might not look the same as AC's HJ, even if he gave it the same bash job. It might look even different if it was actually on Ford's head, of course we'll never know...which is the biggest issue of all. Even if someone got a modern HJ to look spot-on, 100% SA in Ford's size, we'll never know for sure how SA it might be compared to the real thing, unless we see it on the man himself. That forces us to look elsewhere for secondary evidence, such as the vintage HJ hats. Until someone explains how those vintage HJ's bear such a strong resemblance to the Raiders HJ while possibly having completely different blockshapes, I don't really think this debate has anywhere else to go, personally...

-GCR

[Fedora]

In hindsight, I should have never posted the info that I was emailed. But, while I can delete it now, it will still be in quotes on other posts.

But, it did happen, and at the time, I only saw it as competition, in a Capitalistic environment, which is well and fine.

I really think there are some guys out there, that for whatever reason just do not like me, or Marc, and certainly don't like the fact that our ABs were chosen for Indy's new adventure. Whether or not Aeris, falls into this group, I don't know. But, when I read between the lines, some of the things that have been said basically make me and Marc look like idiots who reverse engineered a hat block, which was a waste of time and money, because the right block was already out there. And it was on the HJs. Of course this offends the both of us, but its a free country and you can say or hint at anything that you want.

Perhaps we did reverse a block that was unnecessary to do, but at least we were interested enough in this hat to put forth the effort to make a block that looked better to us. No other hatter has done this, they just used what they had, and sold it as an Indy fedora. We surely went more than an extra mile to create our hats, and to us, we think we are closer than anyone else out there.

This is now extending to other items that Marc is working on. We are really trying in a big way to provide the most accurate and high quality Indy items available, not because of profit, but due to the love of the gear. I know this sounds like a commercial, but I don't mean it in that way. I don't need anymore business. I have too much now. I hope I don't sell a hat until the film comes out.


If I am wrong on Aeris's ulteriour motives, I apologize, here and now, to him, and to anyone else that I offended. But, to me, it was the only logical explanation, because his beliefs surpass the ludicrous to me personally. But, I may be totally wrong too!! It is easier for me to understand his contention, if I see some sort of ulteriour motive at the roots of his arguments. Then, it makes sense, otherwise, as I said, I am really PUZZLED. Maybe I have just went insane from the mercury on the vintage hats I have reworked over the years. I will give you that. Perhaps I have gone completely loony. If so, I hope you will give me pass, because loony folks write loony posts. Perhaps we will all see a National Enquirer with the caption, "Indy 4 fedora made by two insane guys, who are now in hospitals for the mentially ill." And some will see pics of two guys in straight jackets, wearing Indy fedoras. You guys here can then all enter into 12 Step programs, to get cured of what drove Marc and I over the edge into madness. And, you will all replace your ABs with HJs, and be sane again. Fedora

[Indiana G]

"Indy 4 fedora made by two insane guys, who are now in hospitals for the mentially ill." And some will see pics of two guys in straight jackets, wearing Indy fedoras.

you guys are coming to visit me?

i can see it now.....us 3 in the padded room....both marc and steve heavily medicated and staring at the walls with blank faces. i break the silence with, "so guys.......that sea clipper hat......are you guys sure it was grey?"

[whiskyman]

Just for the record, I owned at least 4 (was it 5??) modern HJs sold through Replix in Germany. They really satisfied me in many ways, following on from my Akubras. I could get a reasonable Raiders bash out of them but could never really get a correct centre dent without getting a little taper. They also tapered quicker than any hat I've had before or since.
As most of you know, I wore a Raiders era HJ for quite a while as well before letting retire as a museum piece. This was a totally different hat. The block, felt and workmanship were utterly diffenerent. It took a Raiders bash effortlessly and even sagged, changed shape and flapped in a breeze just like ther Raiders hat. There is no way that hat was the same block as the modern HJ. Unless,as Steve once suggested, they make the hats so sloppily that they taper on leaving the block.
The only other hat that I've come across with a comparable block shape is Steve's AB. I lose track as he's adjusted the shape once or twice - but the block he used for my latest AB is pretty much identical to my old vintage HJ.
Ah, what a hat! Sorely missed.

[Mike]

So this doesn't flare up into a flame war, or drag another board's issues on to ours, lets carry this on through PMs between Fedora and Aeries. As it is between them, there shouldn't be any other parties putting in their two cents here.

Let's 'move along' and let these two settle it.

Mike

[Satipo]

So, er, regarding the height difference between the front and back, did it bug others too that Flannery's YIJC fedora had a higher back than front configuration? Where's the thinking in that, eh?

[Fedora]

I think we both pretty much said what was on our minds.

For me, I really don't wish to continue it, here, or there. We will just agree to disagree, and realize that every private message one gets is "suspect" as it is anecdotal at best.

I think I am pretty much burned out on this Raiders block issue, and will slip into the background and just read from now on. I doubt there is anyone here that does not understand my position, and I now see no need to contintually parrot it, as I have been apt to do in the past.

And to Aeris, no hard feelings man. Not on my end anyways. Life is too short for continuing negetive stuff. I sometimes write before I think, a character flaw, and I admit it. And I am hardheaded, another character flaw. Perhaps that is why I am basically a loner, and found my most enjoyable backpacking trips, and canoe trips were always solo ones. Me and Rick5150 have that in common,(the solo wilderness treks) and that probably explains why he is one of my best friends, although I have never personally met the man. But I digress, which is better than what is going on elsewhere in this thread. Regards, Fedora

[ob1al]

So, er, regarding the height difference between the front and back, did it bug others too that Flannery's YIJC fedora had a higher back than front configuration? Where's the thinking in that, eh?

Did it really? Interesting.

I've never been an affectionaddo of the TV series so it's not something I've ever noticed.

Any pics to show?

Al

[Satipo]

So, er, regarding the height difference between the front and back, did it bug others too that Flannery's YIJC fedora had a higher back than front configuration? Where's the thinking in that, eh?

Did it really? Interesting.

I've never been an affectionaddo of the TV series so it's not something I've ever noticed.

Any pics to show?

Al

I haven't got any good pics, but you get a hint of it from the smaller image on the right over at http://www.theraider.net/ right now. I just remember cringing whenever I saw it on the show.

[Mike]

So, er, regarding the height difference between the front and back, did it bug others too that Flannery's YIJC fedora had a higher back than front configuration? Where's the thinking in that, eh?

Did it really? Interesting.

Yep, and worse yet, on the DVD during the (very bad) edited episode transition for "Spring Break Adventure), he has a lid that must've been used through the whole series and stored in high humidity as it was shrunk and tapered something fierce. But it was a nice distraction from the bad wig he was wearing to match his hairstyle from the series.

[ob1al]

Is this the hat?



It's a strange brew alright - looks like it has been throught the wringer, that one!

[ob1al]

But it was a nice distraction from the bad wig he was wearing to match his hairstyle from the series.

....

[Satipo]

Is this the hat?



It's a strange brew alright - looks like it has been throught the wringer, that one!

That's it alright. I have to say it again: WHAT were they thinking?

[Michaelson]

Well, in it's defense, these stories were taking place in the early 20's, and this 'style' hat wasn't all that uncommon.

Regards! Michaelson

[ob1al]

:

[Michaelson]

Van Helsing?

Regard! Michaelson

[ob1al]

Sorry Michaelson, just saw your post above - perhaps you are right in that the YIJ hat was a reflection of hats of that period.

I quite like the 'I'll get you my pretty' brim going on there, though.

[Satipo]

Well, in it's defense, these stories were taking place in the early 20's, and this 'style' hat wasn't all that uncommon.

Regards! Michaelson

Well, if that's the case, WHAT were they thinking in the 20's?