Pleat myths...

[Doug C]

I doubt many have actually measured the pleats, they probably just threw that number out there when they received a new Wested with the really deep pleats - you have seen those right ? My guess with regards to Wested in particular is that some were 2" and some closer to 3". One of the used ones I had had deep pleats and it looked odd from different angles and always bugged me. I always thought it was one of those details that was "changed for the better", to help keep them closed because some were complaining that the pleats stayed open all the time.. but a change than only got complaints from what I could tell. IMO it wasn't screen accurate at all.

Doug C

[Panama Tom Jr.]

I always thought the pleats on my jacket were too deep, but I just checked and they are as you described - 2 inches at the top and tapering down to about 1 5/8". The pleats on my jacket roll out funny, but I think that because the jacket is too wide for my shoulders - the back seam tends to angle down where it comes to the arms, and this causes the top of the pleat to roll out. It also seems that the horizontal seam (yoke?) on my jacket seems a lot lower on the back than the screen jackets, but I believe that's another thread, no?
But it looks like I can't blame pleat depth anymore - they're dead on 2 inches...

[bobbyd]

hmmm action pleats 2" at the top tapering down to 1.5" at the side strap... i think i like it... has anyone ever ordered a Wested with a tapered action pleat (_ didn't seem to have much luck doing so)? are they tapered at all normally?

edit - I missed your post Panama Tom - did you specifically ask for the pleats to be tapered, or did they just come that way? I assume it's a Wested?

[Panama Tom Jr.]

It's a 3 1/2" yr old lambskin Wested and I didn't specify depth on the pleats when I ordered- I did order it with elastic on the pleats but removed the elastic as it seemed to add to the problems I was having with it gaping open...

[junior]

Wait a minute. I received my Expedition long ago, back in May of 2003. The pleats, from top to bottom, measure a depth of 1.5". I also thought I remembered how 1.5" was what was found on the stunt jacket and this is why 1.5" was used for the pleat depth...back in fall of 2002 when the Expo was being assembled. I don't remember anything about a tapering pleat being used - of course, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Am I the only one that has an Expedition with 1.5" pleats from one that was made back '02-'03? _, did you make a special request to Dave to make your jacket with the tapering pleats or was this supposed to be standard back then?

This is odd. I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain that 1.5" was the implemented pleat depth when this jacket was first made back in late 2002...correcting the standard 2" depth used on Wested's. I even remember a pic posted by MK after he first received his jacket back in late 2002 or so. He is raising his arm and moving it forward, mimicking a pose HF was caught on camera making between shoots. The pleat is exposed and it's the same depth all the way up and down, 1.5". I've got the picture saved on my desktop as a JPEG but have no idea how you guys post pictures on this forum.

Let me know and I'll post it.

Confused,

junior

[ob1al]

You can post the pic by going to www.imageshack.us , uploading the pic there and copyng/pasting the link here.

[Michaelson]

Just to toss fuel on the fire, I just measured my U. S. Wings VIP, and it, too, has 1.5 inch top to bottom.

Regards! Michaelson

[junior]

Thanks. Hope this works:

Hmmm, looking at this for the first time in a few years, it seems that this pleat may be 2" deep. We know the side straps are 1" wide, right? Is MK's pleat two straps wide? UPDATE: after doing some measuring, I believe it is 1.5" after all.

The confusion mounts.

junior

[agent5]

Here's the shot of Ford. (D'OH!, just a bit too late, but I'll leave it anyways)


I've never seen a screen used HERO jacket from Raiders, but screen cap after screen cap and production photos all show the pleat depth at 1.5". This is evident when accepting the side strap at 1". I've never heard any speculation as to the side strap being 1.5" wide and if that is not the case then the pic above shows a 1.5" pleat. The side strap and pleat are on the same plane and the pleat is wide open which gives you a pretty darn accurate measurment.

Although I don't own an expedition I contacted a friend who owns one from 2001 and one from 2006 and both had an untapered 1.5" pleat.

the original Expeditions came with the tapered pleat as well as the other "oddities" of the specific original jacket upon which it is based

Wasn't the jacket used to make the expo the one with the sewn up pleats, the Terry Leonard jacket? That would mean that the pleats were different and had to be altered to make the expo, is that correct?

Is there any photographic evidence of the examination of the jacket with the 2" pleats? If not, what was the measurement taken of the side strap? It is of course possible that one or more of the 12 or so jackets made for Raiders did have a deeper pleat and the one Ford most wore had a more shallow pleat. After all, there are many obvious inconsistancies in the hero jackets we see on screen. This pleat depth issue may be another.

[junior]

Thanks _. I forgot that the Expo went back that far. 2000? Sheesh. One last thing _, are the oddities you mention things that Todd incorporated into his custom offering making it more authentic to the Raiders hero jacket?

Also, _ wrote: " In that pic, I would submitt that there may be some "folding-over at the top where the pleat is wider, because of the way Ford is mugging for the shot." Looking at it closely, it looks like Ford's jacket pleat is wide at the top middle but then REALLY tapers down to a shorter depth as it gets closer to the strap, and then when the pleat meets the strap it seems that the pleat is gone. Is this an optical illusion?

Man, I feel like I'm back in time. Let's just hope Austin Powers doesn't surface.

Again, _, thanks for all your help on this stuff over the years. That torch stuff had me buckeling over.

junior

[agent5]

I would say anything is possible, but with the pic above it is probably not too probable. As I said, there were many obvious inconsistancies in those jackets just by what we see on screen and the pleat depth on the jacket you examined may have had one of those inconsistancies on the pleat depth. Of course, on the other hand, maybe the pleat depth was 2" tapering down on 11 of the 12 jackets leaving the one we most see on screen and in the production photos the odd one out with a 1.5" pleat depth.

Anything is possible and truthfully, I think we'll never know.

So, to get this straight the TL jacket you examined long ago had a 1.5" pleat and the second jacket you looked at had a 2" pleat?

[agent5]

I just like learning all this stuff is all. Anything to do with Raiders gear interests me greatly and you're the only one I can recall who's examinced two Raiders jackets.

Did the jackets have a sharp taper or a fairly even taper all the way down?

Why then didn't the expo have the pleat depth at 2" tapering down if the TL jacket you examined had the 2" pleat at the top? Did the early prototypes have this and then have them changed at some point for some reason?

[Michaelson]

If you want to read old stuff regarding your research, _, go to the link I provided in the "Indy IV' "section and use the 'search' function.

I didn't find anything on the 3 inch pleat (though, I too remember someone posting having one made that way), but you got the 1.5 inch top to bottom pleat measurement from your old Cooper back in 2000. I just read it.

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

Yep. Interesting that the pleats on the Wings have not changed in almost 8 years, as yours measured 1.5 inch, and my year old VIP Wings still has the same 1.5 inch measurement as well.

One odd post I read was from an individual to you asking confirmation of at least a 3/4" pleat depth, which you confirmed.....so we were all OVER radar during that time period.

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

None was listed....that's what was odd.

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

Yep, that's the one! Without proper context, I was clueless (more than usual too!)

Regards! Michaelson

[junior]

Thanks Michaelson. I hadn't used this before. Hope this doesn't keep me up late.

Had a little fun and came across an old thread that touched on some of the things that went back and forth back in 2000 when the Expo was being made.
http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/forum ... 57405.html

Ahh, the days of these discussions. I think the 3/4" thing you mentioned was related to how some felt the yoke should have been 3". The yoke I believe was 3 3/4" on the protoype 40R Expedition (the size used as the template from which other sizes were created). Moving it up 3/4" to 3" would have raised the pleat 3/4", making it longer and thus starting higher up the shoulder. If I'm not mistaken, this oddity is implemented on Todd's custom jacket.

Wonder whatever happened to 'ol Austin Powers?

junior

[junior]

Man, he left a mark, huh?

Too funny,

junior

[Rundquist]

Sorry - both were 2" at the top and 1.5" at the side strap attachment. Playing devils advocate? Looking at two-dimensional pics ignores angles many times, and the pleat will be opened to various degrees at various points. At the mid-back would it be close to 1.5? Maybe 1.75? Are we going to really argue 0.25" from a pic?

This is how I play devil's advocate.

[Fedora]

So the strap on the jacket was 1 inch wide? Looks like 3/4 to me, which would then change the precievable pleat depth. Yawl sure it is 1 inch wide? How wide is his gun belt then, 1 1/2 or 2 inches? Using my cursor as a tape measure, you can place two straps on the belt. So, if the belt is known to be 2 inches wide, then the strap is in fact one inch wide. I am sure one of you guys has already done this.......just checkin' Fedora

[rigor]

I'm joining the thread very late, and too bad too. The thread's taken some odd turns since _ asked about 3 inch pleats. I almost hate to bring it around to his original question.

I'm one of the guilty ones, maybe the only one. I've definitely talked about 3" pleats. My Wested made in 1999 has 1.25" pleat on one side and 1-1/8" on the other. When I ordered my next Wested around 2004 I was shocked by the new jacket's huge pleats. The pleats looked to be at least double the size of those on my old jacket. "Rocky the Flying Squirrel" jacket is about what I was thinking at the time too! If I incorrectly thought my old jacket's pleats were 1.5" and the new jacket's pleats were double, then voila. 3" pleats.

Unfortunately, I sold the new jacket and can't verify the size of the new jacket's, um, wings. I've PM'd the buyer, but he hasn't been seen around these parts in over a year. I'm not holding out hope he'll respond. I'll see if I can dig up photos. The pics are probably stuffed in my shoebox labeled "Unexplained Mysteries Photos." I sort through the Bigfoot and UFO pics there and see if I find any jacket pics.

[rigor]

Well, heck. That didn't take long at all. Here's one photo and links to two more. The linked photos are larger and show the jacket laid out flat. In one photo you can clearly see a crease forming on the back panel showing the depth of the pleat. (Sorry, I didn't find a photo of the pleat with a ruler sticking out of it. And note the two-piece gusset. Man, I'm glad I sold this jacket!) See what you guys come up with for an estimate of the pleat depth.

http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h140/ ... W_2063.jpg
http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h140/ ... W_2062.jpg

Check out this completely retarded photo of me hunching my shoulders to straighten out the back panel. See the little white line where the leather is catching the light? That's the start of the crease showing the depth of the pleat. Maybe with leather folding and sewing the depth is a bit shallower than that, but not much.

[Kt Templar]

Note: how it "looks" like the arm seams are way below the yoke seam on the back shot, and on the clear side shot is is evident they it is only a fraction of an inch below. Just an example of the angle playing tricks.

Those pleats do look a bit deep though!

The 'wideness' of the back panel is SA, check out when he saves Sapito, and when he is looking at the Flying Wing, it's wider and looser than we expect to see.

[ANZAC_1915]

My recent Wested authentic Raiders is 2" top to bottom.

[rigor]

Here's one of the other photos I linked to before but now shown reduced to comply with COW image size rules. The light is catching a wrinkle along the back panel which shows the pleat depth. The depth looks to be 3 times the width of the strap.

But what I'm gathering from the recent interest in 3inch pleats is that my jacket was maybe just an oddity and didn't represent the normal pleat depth from Wested back in 2004 time frame. Is that correct?